How Can Abortion Be Biblically Defended?

[SkyWriting]

Again, I don't' pit the Bible against itself. I don't use the Bible to contradict the Bible. I am simply pointing out that the Bible does not ever say we are to obey man's laws even when they require us to disobey God. You have not proven that claim. You pepper us ad nauseum with places in the Bible where are told to obey governing authorities, but NONE of those verses say that God's laws are to be set aside and man's laws are to be obeyed. Nowhere in that rebellion every sanctioned in Scripture. You are adding to the Word of God by making those fallacious claims.

The only reason you are making these false claims about the Bible is because you cannot actually defend abortion on moral grounds. You cannot use the paradigm of biblical morality to justify murdering babies. So you reach for a pathetically weak and dishonest claim that the Bible is subservient to the laws of sinful man. You are promoting heresy. You are trying to say that God is pleased when we set aside His laws in order to commit abominations like abortions. Sorry, but what you are promoting is a lie.

Here is your problem: The Bible tells us that the government during the Tribulation we will be ordered by the government to take the Antichrist's mark on their head or forehead. This will be non-negotiable. But those who take the mark, will be lost forever according to the Bible. So, should Christians take the Satan's mark and thus rebel against God?? Would God want us to obey that law instead of remaining faithful to Him?

How does your approach work in that instance?

So no scripture in support of civil disobedience. That's what I found as well!
See, I come from Church of the Brethren, by both parents, which does advocate for civil disobedience. I recently discovered they had no support from scripture. Which helps explain why we never had Bibles in the pews for people to read for themselves.

Which is identical to your posts. Lots of "logic" and "points" but no scripture.


Romans 13
1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. 5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. 6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

 

[Justified112]

So no scripture for support of what everyone advocates. That's what I found as well!

What you don't seem to understand is that YOU have the burden of proof. You have to actually produce Scripture that states that God's laws are subservient/subordinate to man's laws. If you cannot prove that claim, I don't have to post anything that contradicts that claim because the status quo position is that God's laws are supreme over man's laws and God should be obeyed over human governments if those governments contradict God. My argument stands by default if you cannot prove that the status quo has changed.

So until you can find a verse where God says that He abdicates his authority, your position is dead in the water.

 

[SkyWriting]

I created a thread for this to be discussed so that this one doesn't get derailed. Here is the link:
If a local law contradicts the Bible, what should we obey?

Nice. But I am on the topic. Scripture says to obey local government over personal views. So where abortion is legal, then it is not a murder unless local law says it is.

Becasue everyone is so lazy, I have found an example of civil disobedience that you should have found by now:

Acts 4
13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were uneducated, common men, they were astonished. And they recognized that they had been with Jesus. 14 But seeing the man who was healed standing beside them, they had nothing to say in opposition. 15 But when they had commanded them to leave the council, they conferred with one another, 16 saying, “What shall we do with these men? For that a notable sign has been performed through them is evident to all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and we cannot deny it. 17 But in order that it may spread no further among the people, let us warn them to speak no more to anyone in this name.” 18 So they called them and charged them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus. 19 But Peter and John answered them, “Whether it is right in the sight of God to listen to you rather than to God, you must judge, 20 for we cannot but speak of what we have seen and heard.” 21 And when they had further threatened them, they let them go, finding no way to punish them, because of the people, for all were praising God for what had happened. 22 For the man on whom this sign of healing was performed was more than forty years old.

 

[Justified112]

So no scripture in support of civil disobedience. That's what I found as well!
See, I come from Church of the Brethren, by both parents, which does advocate for civil disobedience. I recently discovered they had no support from scripture. Which helps explain why we never had Bibles in the pews for people to read for themselves.

Which is identical to your posts. Lots of "logic" and "points" but no scripture.

If the government passed law requiring the worship of Satan, would you comply and worship Satan?

 

[brinny]

My faith is in the scriptures, where Jesus says and lives and dies by the idea that local government takes priority over scripture. This is not dependant on any particular issue. I have no problem with what Jesus said.

John 19:11
Jesus answered him, “You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above.

where Jesus says and lives and dies by the idea that local government takes priority over scripture.

This would be sin.

Are you saying that Jesus advocated sinning?

In addition, is the Most High God WHO He is, or is He subject to man aka local government?

 

[Justified112]

Nice. But I am on the topic. Scripture says to obey local government over personal views. So where abortion is legal, then it is not a sin.

Wrong. Just because something is legal, doesn't mean it is not sinful. The New Testament never sanctions sin if it is made legal. Even Paul labels the legalized prostitution of Corinth as sin and told the Corinthian believers not to take their disputes to the local magistrates because of the sin those magistrates were involved in (fornication, homosexuality, prostitution, idolatry, etc.). So to say that what is legal is not sinful is not supported by the Bible.

 

[SkyWriting]

What you don't seem to understand is that YOU have the burden of proof. You have to actually produce Scripture that states that God's laws are subservient/subordinate to man's laws. If you cannot prove that claim, I don't have to post anything that contradicts that claim because the status quo position is that God's laws are supreme over man's laws and God should be obeyed over human governments if those governments contradict God. My argument stands by default if you cannot prove that the status quo has changed. So until you can find a verse where God says that He abdicates his authority, your position is dead in the water.

My position is only what scripture says. That's why I keep including it. (per the OP)


John 19
1 Then Pilate took Jesus and had him flogged. 2 The soldiers twisted together a crown of thorns and put it on his head. They clothed him in a purple robe 3 and went up to him again and again, saying, “Hail, king of the Jews!” And they slapped him in the face.

4 Once more Pilate came out and said to the Jews gathered there, “Look, I am bringing him out to you to let you know that I find no basis for a charge against him.” 5 When Jesus came out wearing the crown of thorns and the purple robe, Pilate said to them, “Here is the man!”

6 As soon as the chief priests and their officials saw him, they shouted, “Crucify! Crucify!”

But Pilate answered, “You take him and crucify him. As for me, I find no basis for a charge against him.”

7 The Jewish leaders insisted, “We have a law, and according to that law he must die, because he claimed to be the Son of God.”

8 When Pilate heard this, he was even more afraid, 9 and he went back inside the palace. “Where do you come from?” he asked Jesus, but Jesus gave him no answer. 10 “Do you refuse to speak to me?” Pilate said. “Don’t you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?”

11 Jesus answered,
“You would have no power over me
if it were not given to you from above.
Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin.”

12 From then on, Pilate tried to set Jesus free, but the Jewish leaders kept shouting, “If you let this man go, you are no friend of Caesar. Anyone who claims to be a king opposes Caesar.”

 

[SkyWriting]

Wrong. Just because something is legal, doesn't mean it is not sinful. The New Testament never sanctions sin if it is made legal. Even Paul labels the legalized prostitution of Corinth as sin and told the Corinthian believers not to take their disputes to the local magistrates because of the sin those magistrates were involved in (fornication, homosexuality, prostitution, idolatry, etc.). So to say that what is legal is not sinful is not supported by the Bible.

That depends on your particular view of the legal system.

James 4
1 What is the source of wars and fights among you? Don’t they come from the cravings that are at war within you? 2 You desire and do not have. You murder and covet and cannot obtain. You fight and war. You do not have because you do not ask. 3 You ask and don’t receive because you ask with wrong motives, so that you may spend it on your evil desires.c

4 Adulteresses!d, e Don’t you know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? So whoever wants to be the world’s friend becomes God’s enemy. 5 Or do you think it’s without reason the Scripture says that the Spirit who lives in us yearns jealously?g, h

6 But He gives greater grace. Therefore He says:
God resists the proud,
but gives grace to the humble.i, j

7 Therefore, submit to God. But resist the Devil, and he will flee from you.k 8 Draw near to God, and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, sinners, and purify your hearts, double-minded people!l 9 Be miserable and mourn and weep. Your laughter must change to mourning and your joy tosorrow. 10 Humble yourselves before the Lord, and He will exalt you.

11 Don’t criticize one another, •brothers. He who criticizes a brother or judges his brother criticizes the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge.n 12 There is one lawgiver and judge who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?p

13 Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will travel to such and such a city and spend a year there and do business and make a profit.”q14You don’t even know what tomorrow will bring — what your life will be! For you are like smoke that appears for a little while, then vanishes.r

15 Instead, you should say, “If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that.” 16 But as it is, you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil.s

17 So it is a sin for the person who knows to do what is good and doesn’t do it.

Becasue I find no support for civil disobedience in scripture then local law decides what is sin for me. Submitting to local law by power given from the Father, Jesus was crucified.

11 Jesus answered,
“You would have no power over me
if it were not given to you from above.

 

[SkyWriting]

Are you saying that Jesus advocated sinning?

In addition, is the Most High God WHO He is, or is He subject to man aka local government?

Jesus submitted His life to local government stating that
local government actions were the Fathers will.

John 19:11
Jesus answered him, “You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above.

 

[SkyWriting]

What you don't seem to understand is that YOU have the burden of proof.

Scripture stating that the actions of local government are the will of God. Got it.

John 19:11
Jesus answered him, “You would have no authority over me at all
unless it had been given you from above.

 

[SkyWriting]

This would be sin.Are you saying that Jesus advocated sinning?In addition, is the Most High God WHO He is, or is He subject to man aka local government?

Man is subject to the will of the Father by way of local government.

This is why democracy is worth going to war over. Becasue democracy best implements the law of God for man.

Jeremiah 31:33
But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

 

[God saves]

First, in the OP, I made the claim that it is impossible for a Christian to support abortion without disregarding the word of God or abandoning it altogether. You have clearly said that "local government takes priority over scripture". That is your exact words. You clearly confessed that you disregard the word of God to justify abortion.

I am sorry but you are not only very mistaken, but you are an example of the accuracy of my claim in the OP. You even went as far to say that we ought to renounce God and worship idols if the local government told us to. That is a very perverse approach to scripture that would make any God fearing Christian cringe. Nowhere does it ever say anywhere in the scripture that local government takes priority over scripture. EVER! It says we are to obey local laws, but God's word is supreme over local laws. Please read Acts 5:27-32 and tell me where the authority of the Sanhedrin (Jewish Courts) came from?

27 The apostles were brought in and made to appear before the Sanhedrin to be questioned by the high priest. 28 “We gave you strict orders not to teach in this name,” he said. “Yet you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and are determined to make us guilty of this man’s blood.”

29 Peter and the other apostles replied: “We must obey God rather than human beings! 30 The God of our ancestors raised Jesus from the dead">—whom you killed by hanging him on a cross. 31 God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might bring Israel to repentance and forgive their sins. 32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.” (Acts 5:27-32)

It really cannot get anymore plain than this. Are you now to say that Peter was wrong to have obeyed Jesus over the Sanhedrin?

Now I understand that abortion is a hot topic so I am not taking anything said on this thread personally. However, I am genuinely concerned about you. If you actually believe half the things you confessed to on this thread, you are in need of a lot of prayer. I am taking off my "debate" hat and putting on my "brother in Christ" hat and imploring you to talk your pastor or some other elder in your church and get some guidance on the issue of the Word of God over local laws.

I know this post isn't directed at me but about seeking advice from a pastor or elder in a church, I do think it could be useful and provide insights, but I do believe that not all of all pastors' and elders' views are necessarily always correct even if they have the best of intentions, though I do believe we should submit to all authority that does not command you to sin and I am not saying I think a true Christian pastor or elder would not be careful to not give unbiblical advice, but I believe only God's word (the Bible) is the final authority and I believe whatever a pastor says if it is true it must not contradict the Bible, what are your views on this?

About the topic of abortion, I don't really know the Bible well but based on Bible verses and based on what my conscience seems to tell me I do believe abortion to be wrong. Also, since finding out that in Acts 5:29 Peter said "we must obey God rather than men" and also knowing that in the Old Testament Daniel refused to bow to idols, based on that verse in the context of the whole Bible I am persuaded that it would be right to disobey a law if that law asks me to sin against God, such as if the law requires me to commit idolatry or fornication (sex outside marriage).

Also, there may be people reading this thread who may take anyone says as truth, there may be people reading this thread who have limited intellectual or mental capacity or difficulties in comprehnsion and understanding, there may be people reading this thread who want to know more about the Lord Jesus Christ or who are recent converts to Christianity; and though I hope not there may be people reading this thread who want to who want to show Christianity in a negative light; for these reasons although I acknowledge that I don't know very much at all and that many people by God's grace and provision know God's word (the Bible) much better than me I am concerned that people would make claims that seem unbiblical because of the possible impact it could have although I believe God is able to prevent such an impact if He wills.

 

[brinny]

Jesus submitted His life to local government stating that
local government actions were the Fathers will.

John 19:11
Jesus answered him, “You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above.

Jesus the Christ, the only begotten Son of the living God submitted to the Father in order to shed His blood and die on the cross for our sins.

God "allowed" the murderers of Jesus Christ to order and carry out His death for this purpose.

In so doing they "sinned".

The shedding of innocent blood is abhorrent to the living God. This includes the shedding of innocent blood of the most helpless, and these are the "least of these" who are included when Jesus said "What you have done for the least of these you have done for me". (The pre-born).

It was perfectly legal to exterminate Jewish people. It was perfectly legal to buy people like products and "own" them, as in slavery.

Did/does God agree with these laws?

Are they sin?

 

[brinny]

Man is subject to the will of the Father by way of local government.

This is why democracy is worth going to war over. Becasue democracy best implements the law of God for man.

Jeremiah 31:33
But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

"Law" and God are not necessarily in sync with one another.

There can be only ONE.

God does not "share" His sovereignty nor His throne with anyone.

He "bows" to no one.

 

[SkyWriting]

"Law" and God are not necessarily in sync with one another. There can be only ONE.God does not "share" His sovereignty nor His throne with anyone. He "bows" to no one.

God shares His sovereignty over us. And He requests us to submit to local authority.
This is WHY you don't see the prisons full of arrested Christians.

Everybody does do what I'm saying, and they all obey local government no matter what that happens to be. They just don't want to admit that they submit to local government.
They like to talk and claim, but they all act in accordance with local law first.

I've just recently discovered that the Bible says to obey local government.
So all the talk other wise is .....just talk.

 

[brinny]

God shares his sovereignty over us. And He requests us to submit to local authority.
This is WHY you don't see the prisons full of arrested Christians.

Everybody does do what I'm saying, and they all obey local government no matter what that happens to be. They just don't want to admit that they submit to local government.
They like to talk and claim, but they all act in accordance with local law first.

I've just recently discovered that the Bible says to obey local government.
So all the talk other wise is ......

Where does it say in God's Word to submit to evil laws?

(You did not respond to the questions i asked you, including about the shedding of innocent blood)

 

[SkyWriting]

Where does it say in God's Word to submit to evil laws?

God's will is worked though local government. So I'm not sure which ones I would consider to be evil. But on that topic, slaves should submit to harmful masters and what man intends for evil, God intends for good.

 

[SkyWriting]

Jesus the Christ, the only begotten Son of the living God submitted to the Father in order to shed His blood and die on the cross for our sins.God "allowed" the murderers of Jesus Christ to order and carry out His death for this purpose.In so doing they "sinned".The shedding of innocent blood is abhorrent to the living God. This includes the shedding of innocent blood of the most helpless, and these are the "least of these" who are included when Jesus said "What you have done for the least of these you have done for me". (The pre-born).It was perfectly legal to exterminate Jewish people. It was perfectly legal to buy people like products and "own" them, as in slavery.Did/does God agree with these laws?Are they sin?

I've known women who had abortions and I do not judge their sins any more than I judge yours. God does not see what man sees by outward appearance and instead judges one's intentions.

 

[brinny]

brinny said: ↑
Where does it say in God's Word to submit to evil laws?

God's will is worked though local government. So I'm not sure which ones I would consider to be evil. But on that topic, slaves should submit to harmful masters and what man intends for evil, God intends for good.

Please post the verses where it is written that we are to submit to evil laws.

In addition, you did not respond to the questions i asked you, including about the shedding of innocent blood.

On another note, did you know that innocent blood that is shed, cries out to the living God for recompense for the evil done?

God has a decided opinion on the shedding of innocent blood.

Do you know what it is?

 

[God saves]

God's will is worked though local government. So I'm not sure which ones I would consider to be evil. But on that topic, slaves should submit to harmful masters and what man intends for evil, God intends for good.

If a harmful master requires you to commit idolatry or fornication, should you obey that master (I believe not)? If a harmful master asks you that you to disobey (not follow) a local goverment law that does not contradict (go against) Scripture, should you obey that particular order from the master (I believe not)?

If I may ask, what is your occupation (I try not to judge someone by their occupation, I am just curious)? If I may ask, do any of your family and colleagues, or people in your local church agree with your view that submission to local government is neccesary even when it contradicts Scripture (as a young woman I am writing this respectfully, and I do not believe that many people believing something necessarily makes something true but based on Scripture I cannot be convinced that it is right to obey an unbiblical law (Acts 5:29)?