How Can Abortion Be Biblically Defended?

[SPF]

One performed an abortion on one of my friends.

What was the context of the abortion? Did your friend have a healthy baby and was she healthy and she in her healthy state decided she no longer wanted the baby, and so she went to a hospital and told a doctor she was healthy and wanted to terminate her healthy baby and they said ok?

 

[Kaon]

I stand behind the claims Jesus made before illustrating with His crusifiction.
Note how this story below outcome differs from S.M. & A.? In this story, souls are saved. In S.M. & A. people are torn limb from limb.

7 “We have a law,” the Jews replied to him, “and according to that law He must die, because He made Himself the Son of God.”

8 When Pilate heard this statement, he was more afraid than ever. 9 He went back into the headquarters and asked Jesus, “Where are You from? ” But Jesus did not give him an answer. 10 So Pilate said to Him, “You’re not talking to me? Don’t You know that I have the authority to release You and the authority to crucify You? ”

11 “You would have no authority over Me at all,” Jesus answered him, “if it hadn’t been given you from above.

People like to imagine that Jesus words only apply to this one instance in the history of the world. But Jesus followers reiterate this claim Jesus made.

1 Peter 2:18-20
Servants, be subject to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the unjust. For this is a gracious thing, when, mindful of God, one endures sorrows while suffering unjustly. For what credit is it if, when you sin and are beaten for it, you endure? But if when you do good and suffer for it you endure, this is a gracious thing in the sight of God.

1 Peter 2:13-14
Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good.

Titus 3:1
Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work,

1 Peter 3:1
Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives,

It seems you have taken these and ran with them as God-given commands to obey humans.

You forget the Most High God told us explicitly no human should rule over us (we rejected that). Moreover, one obeys authority because one is not a citizen of this plane of existence - not because those in power are a step or two below the Most High God. In fact, often the Most High God subjects His people to rulers as judgment.

However, blind obedience to the Crown/President/Fuhrer/Great Leader/[insert moniker here] is a man-made doctrine meant to exploit the God-given sovereignty of men. You are falling for it; the Most High God should be your #1 authority.


There will be a time when following the law means disobeying the Most High God. Daniel would have disobeyed the Most High God by being obedient to the king and eating his (diseased) meat sacrificed to idols. He was ready to die for His Father. Pick your side.

 

[SPF]

There will be a time when following the law means disobeying the Most High God. Daniel would have disobeyed the Most High God by being obedient to the king and eating his (diseased) meat sacrificed to idols. He was ready to die for His Father. Pick your side.

SkyWriting has already stated that Daniel was actually wrong to disobey the law of the land and pray to God.

There comes a point where someone’s theology is so far from the Gospel that you almost can’t even reason with them.

At this point, I just hope and pray that SkyWriting isn’t able to influence and mislead anyone with his beliefs.

 

[Kaon]

SkyWriting has already stated that Daniel was actually wrong to disobey the law of the land and pray to God.

There comes a point where someone’s theology is so far from the Gospel that you almost can’t even reason with them.

At this point, I just hope and pray that SkyWriting isn’t able to influence and mislead anyone with his beliefs.

Then, I am going to blame Church leaders. Romans 13 is dangerous in the wrong leadership.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

James 1:2-4
Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.

Romans 5:3-5
More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.

1 Peter 4:12-13
Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery trial when it comes upon you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you. But rejoice insofar as you share Christ's sufferings, that you may also rejoice and be glad when his glory is revealed.

James 1:12
Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him.

I really dont know what you are trying to say with these scriptures. Are you saying that Christian martyrs should have followed your advice by renouncing Christ to spare their lives or that they are blessed for their faithfulness throughout their suffering by not following your advice?

Getting back to the OP. Do you not see that in order to biblically defend abortion, you have reverted to denouncing your faith in favor of self preservation and that the martyrs deserved death? Do you really not see the problem with this?

 

[SkyWriting]

Again, your approach is ridiculous. The notion that if everyone supports life, the government will mandate abortions like China does is nonsense. Fewer people having babies in the US, as it is. Supporting life is not going to lead to more abortions.

That's wasn't my comment or my conclusion.

 

[SkyWriting]

I really dont know what you are trying to say with these scriptures. Are you saying that Christian martyrs should have followed your advice by renouncing Christ to spare their lives or that they are blessed for their faithfulness throughout their suffering by not following your advice?

Getting back to the OP. Do you not see that in order to biblically defend abortion, you have reverted to denouncing your faith in favor of self preservation and that the martyrs deserved death? Do you really not see the problem with this?

My faith is in the scriptures, where Jesus says and lives and dies by the idea that local government takes priority over scripture. This is not dependant on any particular issue. I have no problem with what Jesus said.

John 19:11
Jesus answered him, “You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above.

 

[SkyWriting]

None of those verses claim that our subjection to local government means that we are subject to those governments even when they order us to disobey God.

If you provide scriptural support for that, then you have a point.
But it doesn't exist.

 

[SkyWriting]

The Bible doesn't say that local governments should be obeyed at the expense of obedience to God.

It says submit to all earthy authority. So do that and obey God by doing so.

John 19:10-11
So Pilate said to him, “You will not speak to me? Do you not know that I have authority to release you and authority to crucify you?” Jesus answered him, “You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above.

Proverbs 8:15
By me kings reign, and rulers decree what is just;

Romans 13:1-14
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience.

 

[SkyWriting]

It seems you have taken these and ran with them as God-given commands to obey humans.

You forget the Most High God told us explicitly no human should rule over us (we rejected that). Moreover, one obeys authority because one is not a citizen of this plane of existence - not because those in power are a step or two below the Most High God. In fact, often the Most High God subjects His people to rulers as judgment.

However, blind obedience to the Crown/President/Fuhrer/Great Leader/[insert moniker here] is a man-made doctrine meant to exploit the God-given sovereignty of men. You are falling for it; the Most High God should be your #1 authority.


There will be a time when following the law means disobeying the Most High God. Daniel would have disobeyed the Most High God by being obedient to the king and eating his (diseased) meat sacrificed to idols. He was ready to die for His Father. Pick your side.

There is no support for civil disobedience from Jesus.

49 And he came up to Jesus at once and said, “Greetings, Rabbi!” And he kissed him. 50 Jesus said to him, “Friend, do what you came to do.”[f] Then they came up and laid hands on Jesus and seized him. 51 And behold, one of those who were with Jesus stretched out his hand and drew his sword and struck the servant[g] of the high priest and cut off his ear. 52 Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword. 53 Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels? 54 But how then should the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must be so?” 55 At that hour Jesus said to the crowds, “Have you come out as against a robber, with swords and clubs to capture me? Day after day I sat in the temple teaching, and you did not seize me. 56 But all this has taken place that the Scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled.”

 

[SkyWriting]

None of those verses claim that our subjection to local government means that we are subject to those governments even when they order us to disobey God.

You have scripture that says that? Or just imagining.

 

[Kaon]

There is no support for civil disobedience from Jesus.

49 And he came up to Jesus at once and said, “Greetings, Rabbi!” And he kissed him. 50 Jesus said to him, “Friend, do what you came to do.”[f] Then they came up and laid hands on Jesus and seized him. 51 And behold, one of those who were with Jesus stretched out his hand and drew his sword and struck the servant[g] of the high priest and cut off his ear. 52 Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword. 53 Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels? 54 But how then should the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must be so?” 55 At that hour Jesus said to the crowds, “Have you come out as against a robber, with swords and clubs to capture me? Day after day I sat in the temple teaching, and you did not seize me. 56 But all this has taken place that the Scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled.”

You are to be obedient to the law of the land until it conflict with the Word of God. The Word of God Himself/The Most High God are the authority on all orders of law in the entire universe (as it were).

Daniel eating meat sacrificed to gods is an abomination to the Most High God. Even under the stress of seeing your fellow people killed for rejecting another man's orders, if those orders conflict with the Word of the Most High God then so be it.

Blind faith to GOVERN(control)MENT(mind) is extremely dangerous, and is not something the Most High God, or the Most High God Himself advocated.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

My faith is in the scriptures, where Jesus says and lives and dies by the idea that local government takes priority over scripture. This is not dependent on any particular issue. I have no problem with what Jesus said.

John 19:11
Jesus answered him, “You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above.

First, in the OP, I made the claim that it is impossible for a Christian to support abortion without disregarding the word of God or abandoning it altogether. You have clearly said that "local government takes priority over scripture". That is your exact words. You clearly confessed that you disregard the word of God to justify abortion.

I am sorry but you are not only very mistaken, but you are an example of the accuracy of my claim in the OP. You even went as far to say that we ought to renounce God and worship idols if the local government told us to. That is a very perverse approach to scripture that would make any God fearing Christian cringe. Nowhere does it ever say anywhere in the scripture that local government takes priority over scripture. EVER! It says we are to obey local laws, but God's word is supreme over local laws. Please read Acts 5:27-32 and tell me where the authority of the Sanhedrin (Jewish Courts) came from?

27 The apostles were brought in and made to appear before the Sanhedrin to be questioned by the high priest. 28 “We gave you strict orders not to teach in this name,” he said. “Yet you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and are determined to make us guilty of this man’s blood.”

29 Peter and the other apostles replied: “We must obey God rather than human beings! 30 The God of our ancestors raised Jesus from the dead">—whom you killed by hanging him on a cross. 31 God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might bring Israel to repentance and forgive their sins. 32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.” (Acts 5:27-32)

It really cannot get anymore plain than this. Are you now to say that Peter was wrong to have obeyed Jesus over the Sanhedrin?

Now I understand that abortion is a hot topic so I am not taking anything said on this thread personally. However, I am genuinely concerned about you. If you actually believe half the things you confessed to on this thread, you are in need of a lot of prayer. I am taking off my "debate" hat and putting on my "brother in Christ" hat and imploring you to talk your pastor or some other elder in your church and get some guidance on the issue of the Word of God over local laws.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

If you provide scriptural support for that, then you have a point.
But it doesn't exist.

Acts 5:29

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

It says submit to all earthy authority. So do that and obey God by doing so.

John 19:10-11
So Pilate said to him, “You will not speak to me? Do you not know that I have authority to release you and authority to crucify you?” Jesus answered him, “You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above.

Proverbs 8:15
By me kings reign, and rulers decree what is just;

Romans 13:1-14
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience.

So what exactly is the point of the Bible if even a local Mayor has more authority than the Word of God? Exactly where does that put God? There are places I this world where Christianity is illegal. Many are killed because of their faith. And here you are telling us that God want's those Christians to renounce their faith in observance of the local laws? You cannot truly be serious. Well, you probably be relatively safe and carefree when the Anti-Christ comes because apparently we are supposed to obey him too. You are going to take the mark of the beast like a good Christian should.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

If you provide scriptural support for that, then you have a point.
But it doesn't exist.

I created a thread for this to be discussed so that this one doesn't get derailed. Here is the link:
If a local law contradicts the Bible, what should we obey?

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Then, I am going to blame Church leaders. Romans 13 is dangerous in the wrong leadership.

If a local law contradicts the Bible, what should we obey?

 

[SkyWriting]

You are to be obedient to the law of the land until it conflict with the Word of God. The Word of God Himself/The Most High God are the authority on all orders of law in the entire universe (as it were). Daniel eating meat sacrificed to gods is an abomination to the Most High God. Even under the stress of seeing your fellow people killed for rejecting another man's orders, if those orders conflict with the Word of the Most High God then so be it. Blind faith to GOVERN(control) MENT(mind) is extremely dangerous, and is not something the Most High God, or the Most High God Himself advocated.

Daniel knew that an all meat diet is not healthy long before food scientists of today did. So he asked the king for permission to go vegetarian. He asked, becasue he knew civil disobedience is wrong in all cases.

Here is scripture without your additions:

Romans 13:1-14
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience.

Titus 3:1
1 Remind them to be subject to rulers, to authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good deed, 2 to malign no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing every consideration for all men. 3 For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another. 4 But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, 5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8 This is a trustworthy statement; and concerning these things I want you to speak confidently, so that those who have believed God will be careful to engage in good deeds. These things are good and profitable for men.

9 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. 10 Reject a factious man after a first and second warning, 11 knowing that such a man is perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned.

1 Peter 2:13-20

13 Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human institution, whether to the king as the supreme authority, 14 or to governors as those sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to praise those who do right. 15 For it is God’s will that by doing good you should silence the ignorance of foolish men.

16 Live in freedom, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God. 17 Treat everyone with high regard: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king.

18 Servants, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and gentle, but even to those who are unreasonable. 19For if anyone endures the pain of unjust suffering because he is conscious of God, this is to be commended. 20 How is it to your credit if you are beaten for doing wrong and you endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God.

 

[Justified112]

You have scripture that says that? Or just imagining.

Again, I don't' pit the Bible against itself. I don't use the Bible to contradict the Bible. I am simply pointing out that the Bible does not ever say we are to obey man's laws even when they require us to disobey God. You have not proven that claim. You pepper us ad nauseum with places in the Bible where are told to obey governing authorities, but NONE of those verses say that God's laws are to be set aside and man's laws are to be obeyed. Nowhere in that rebellion every sanctioned in Scripture. You are adding to the Word of God by making those fallacious claims.

The only reason you are making these false claims about the Bible is because you cannot actually defend abortion on moral grounds. You cannot use the paradigm of biblical morality to justify murdering babies. So you reach for a pathetically weak and dishonest claim that the Bible is subservient to the laws of sinful man. You are promoting heresy. You are trying to say that God is pleased when we set aside His laws in order to commit abominations like abortions. Sorry, but what you are promoting is a lie.

Here is your problem: The Bible tells us that the government during the Tribulation we will be ordered by the government to take the Antichrist's mark on their head or forehead. This will be non-negotiable. But those who take the mark, will be lost forever according to the Bible. So, should Christians take the Satan's mark and thus rebel against God?? Would God want us to obey that law instead of remaining faithful to Him?

How does your approach work in that instance?

 

[SkyWriting]

If a local law contradicts the Bible, what should we obey?

1 Peter 2:13-20