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How can a person stay saved?

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by TruthTeller2005, Feb 14, 2005.

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  1. frumanchu

    frumanchu God's justice does not demand second chances Supporter

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    You simply define salvation a different way than others do. You're not the only one. There are several aspects to our salvation, all of which create the possibility of disagreement. You clearly believe that man himself is the sole source and sustenance of his own faith...the penultimate determining factor in all aspects of that faith. I happen to believe that faith, while genuinely ours, was wrought in us by God, is sustained and preserved in us by God, and is brought to completion and perfection by God. Salvation is of the Lord, from start to finish.

    If we are sealed by the Holy Spirit and given an earnest guarantee of our salvation...if we are told that He is able to keep us from stumbling and to present us blameless before the presence of His glory...if we are told that He is at work within us both to will and to do...if we are told that He is able to preserve us...if we are told that those He justified will be glorified...if we are told He will confirm us to the end...if we are told we are sealed for/unto the day of redemption...if we are told we are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation...if we are told that whatever is born of God overcomes the world...if we are told it is God who give the increase......why should I believe other than that salvation is assured and secured for those of us who believe in Him, from the moment they first believe until they stand before Him in glory?
     
  2. A Brethren IN CHRIST

    A Brethren IN CHRIST Well-Known Member

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    so what is it one or the other?
     
  3. Van

    Van Contributor

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    BIC, what Sojourner is saying to confuse the issue is that he believes in Universal Atonement, and he calls this general atonement which applies to everybody "being saved." Then he says, since Christ's sacrifice on the cross is a done deal that no one can lose this condition of "being saved" (of being redeemed by Christ's propitiation for the whole world). His actual position is like the Arminians, but is based on Greek Orthodox doctrine.
     
  4. A Brethren IN CHRIST

    A Brethren IN CHRIST Well-Known Member

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    He counts since all are raised up .... that they all have eternal life....saved?

    John 17:3 and this is life eternal[God's good kind of life], that they might experiencial know thee the only true God, and JC, whom thou has sent.

    Hebrews 6:2 ...and eternal judgement....[bad kind of life without God]

    1 john 1:2 [For the life was plainly seen and we have seen it, and bear witness, and show unto to you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us. [christlikeness]


    rev 20:15 do the dead spiritually who are alive physically get to enjoy eternal life

    no...thrown in the lake of fire ...seperation from God
     
  5. DrBubbaLove

    DrBubbaLove Roman Catholic convert from Southern Baptist Supporter

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    Not Orthodox myself but must agree with everything Sojourner said. Having spent most of my life with a perspective similar to many here, it is easy for me to slip in and out of "orthodox" descriptions of "salvation". Also find it easier to try and speak on your terms. Technically Sojourner is absolutely correct on our understanding of salvation. We are all a work in progress and so hope for salvation is not over until this life is over.

    The Arminians did have issues with “salvation”, but the issues they had were with Calvin’s view. Arminians were a rebellion against Calvin and part of that rebellion did question the idea that the “elect” can never lose faith (for some posting here that equates to "salvation"). Interesting in reading about this that even the early Calvinist (being formerly Catholic) did not speak of losing "salvation" but of losing faith or belief.

    Not that you implied anything by your remark, but just so no one misunderstands, the Greek tradition is thousands of years older than Arminians. While our views on this particular topic maybe said to be similar Arminians on this particular issue in some aspect, am not sure really how similar one could say our views really are. Even though questioning the idea of "losing faith" the Arminians still held a belief to an "elect" but is was less rigid than strict Calvinist. Again not saying you were saying that, just making it clear for others.
     
  6. sojourner

    sojourner Active Member

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    frumanchu,

    Again, just because you believe man is totally passive and is but a pawn, the opposite is not true here either. Man is a cooperative partner with Christ, the Holy Spirit. Man does not do anything without God.
    However, moving to your second paragraph, the key, active word, is ABLE, God is able to do a lot of things. But in this case, He is able to do them only when and if you allow Him to do so. You are in a mutual relationship, not an arrangement where all things are dictated and you are compelled and makes you a passive agent. You are the one who is responsible for your salvation. You will be held accountable to God for what you did in the flesh for and with Him.
    Thus, if you align your will with His, allow Him to work in and through you, He is fully able and will keep you from stumbling and will present you blameless. Paul says this very clearly in II Tim 1:12. He is able but Paul is doing the commiting to Him. It is that committing daily, throughout our lives that God works with us to present us blameless.
     
  7. sojourner

    sojourner Active Member

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    Brethren In Christ,

    Just goes to show some only have blinders on. Several paragraphs and you still do not understand.
     
  8. sojourner

    sojourner Active Member

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    Van,

    You are correct, Van, that I do believe, but it is also what the Bible has taught, Christians have believed since it was delievered by the Apostles. It is not a matter of my calling anything something. The Bible states it very clearly that mankind was saved from death and sin.
    It is not based on Orthodox doctrine, it is the orginal doctrine which today is Orthodox doctrine.
     
  9. sojourner

    sojourner Active Member

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    Brethren In Christ,

    It is actually the opposite. All are saved, thus they have eternal life. All of mankind were redeemed, justified, reconciled, given LIFE, freed from the judgement of death from Adam. Since Christ arose, having reconciled human nature in the form of man, we call this Incarnation, it is impossible that only some would be raised.

    I'm not at all sure just why you posted these texts, except to help me prove my point.

    Having posted this, I don't think you understand this text as it does nothing for either position.

    Obviously you also have a problem with understanding hell. No one would or could be physically alive unless Christ arose, thus giving mankind LIFE. We needed life in order to have a relationship which if we chose not to have, that person would suffer the second death, which is spiritual separation, or lacks life IN Christ. That he will be separated does not mean annihilation or non-existance. All of mankind will live eternally. Man was created to be so. But the fall condemned him to extinction, death physcially and spiritually.
     
  10. frumanchu

    frumanchu God's justice does not demand second chances Supporter

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    Does man cooperate in his birth?

    Given this statement, why is it that people become nearly apoplectic when it's pointed out that they advocate man's sovereignty over God? God does not need our permission do to anything, sojo.

    If God is only able to perserve us if we permit Him to do so, then He is not really able. Think about it for a second...we would have to continually be willing to be preserved in faith in order for God to preserve us in faith. We would in essence be preserving ourselves in our faith, merely using God as an instrument. There is no point at all in ascribing any ability whatsoever to God because He is completely incapable of doing it apart from our permission.

    Or is it that He's able but not necessarily willing?

    Never said that was the case.

    I agree.

    But wouldn't stumbling constitute falling out of alignment with His will? Aren't you in essence saying that as long you don't stumble He is fully able and will keep you from stumbling?

    The way in which you are rendering these passages makes them completely meaningless. You are subordinating God's will and ability to man. Period. By your own words God is able only if man ALLOWS Him.
     
  11. DrBubbaLove

    DrBubbaLove Roman Catholic convert from Southern Baptist Supporter

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    I thought the whole point was to subordinate our will to His. And that when we do not do so, basically that is sin, or at least when/how we sin.

    A gift must be recieved or it is not a gift at all. Do we say that God cannot give a gift?
     
  12. frumanchu

    frumanchu God's justice does not demand second chances Supporter

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    I don't think you see the paradox you've created here. Our will is subordinate to His...except when it comes to choosing to submit to His will that we submit to His will? :)

    As far as receiving the gift, even our willingness to receive it is itself a gift from God. (Canons of the Council of Orange,III-VII)
     
  13. DrBubbaLove

    DrBubbaLove Roman Catholic convert from Southern Baptist Supporter

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    Agree the gift from God to able to receive opens our eyes. God could force us to submit, but then we do not have freewill. Obviously we disagree there. For us it is not that our will IS subordinate to His, but that it SHOULD be. Adam was free to choose and we think we are too. But I can see your point from your view, was once a TULIP guy myself.
     
  14. frumanchu

    frumanchu God's justice does not demand second chances Supporter

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    Show me in the Scriptures where it says we have the type of free will being advocated here.

    I think the Canons of Orange are pretty clear on the issue that not only will man not put his faith in Christ apart from the prior work of the Holy Spirit, but that God's grace "makes us pray to God" (III), "our will to be cleansed comes to us through the infusion and working of the Holy Spirit" (IV), that the "Holy Spirit [amends] our will and turning it from unbelief to faith and from godlessness to godliness" (V), that it is "by the infusion and inspiration of the Holy Spirit within us that we have the faith, the will, or the strength to [believe, will, desire, strive, labor, pray, watch, study, seek, ask, or knock]" and "it is a gift of grace itself that we are obedient and humble" (VI), that the Holy Spirit Himself "makes all men gladly assent to and believe in the truth" (VII).

    We are not in the same state as Adam was before the Fall. God does not coerce or compel us to faith, He inspires us to it efficaciously. :)

    Have a blessed Resurrection Day! :clap:
     
  15. sojourner

    sojourner Active Member

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    frumanchu,

    What has that got to do with anything?

    Your last statement is almost correct. I'm sure God is able to do a lot of things. But in this case He is not willing either. He cannot by His own sovereignty. He created man specifically to perform this function. If God is going to do it for you, why create you in the first place. You become totally superfluous. Have no purpose whatsoever. Thus if God did what you want Him to do, He would violate His own sovereignty and He would have changed. God is the same yesterday, today and forever.
    Man is not more sovereign than God, man does not overrule God's sovereignty, but man does fulfill His sovereign plan. He freely choses to accept (believe) and remain in that abiding faith, or reject Him. You will be held accountable for it. God is not going to judge Himself whether He gave you salvation or withheld it from you.

    Everything you have stated says this. Even your questions above make that statement. If it was otherwise, you would be explaining it the same way the Bible does which is anti OSAS and never speaks of our relationship as "saved" but being saved.

    No, because we do that daily, in fact many times daily. It is referencing the concept that we should remain in the faith, by not rejecting, by not being so lax as to fall into total disobedience. When we do that, we are no longer on the right road and when we are not 'in faith' abiding in faith" we are no longer IN Christ and not being saved. Repentance gets us back, unless we die before we repent, that we again get aligned with Him. You are under the concept that we are saved, thus we become unsaved, in and out type of thing. We grow in faith which means we become better at staying in alignment. We persist in the spirit being more willing than the flesh to dominate our lives.

    Precisely. Now you have the Biblical meaning of freedom through Christ. Adam put our human nature, the free will of man being created in His Image, was also corrupted. But even if man had been willing he would have been unable to have a Union with God before Christ came. Man did, because God had promised a Messiah to overcome the wrong of Adam. We were in an eternal bondage to death and sin. Adam was free to choose or reject God before he sinned. His will was not controlled, nor compelled.
    Christ freed all of mankind from that bondage to death and sin. He freed us so we can also choose and reject Him by ourselves. We are no longer under Adam, but Christ. We have nothing to do with Adam any longer. We cannot blame him for anything. All the blame falls in each individual person in that God calls all men to repentance. All men will give an active answer to that call. They will accept, believe, follow, abide, or reject Him outright or not abide, lose faith.
    Your view, not only violates God's express sovereign will, but makes man inhuman.
    The whole of the NT speaks about how man, if he accepts Christ, can work with God, to overcome the powers of the flesh which remain with us. Christ did not eradicate either sin, sinful natures, nor sinful world. We will live with all of this and thus it is a struggle, we suffer from Christ's sake, to make sure the flesh does not dominate. That is why we are IN Christ so we have the help. But when we choose to reject or once believe, but leave, forwhatever reason, we also leave the help available. Sin separates man from God. Man, a believer, must continually reconcile himself with God by repentance.
    When sin dominates, we do not seek repentance, we are willingly disobedient, we are no longer IN Christ. If not IN Christ, one is not being saved. Christ is the only way. We must remain IN HIM. Remaining IN Him is OUR responsibility. That is what we are accountable for, and God will not do it for you. If, in fact, it was up to Him, then we would all believe in Universal salvation as well and He is not only fully able, but also very willing that all be saved.
    That was the long answer.
    The short answer, - Man's will is free, independent of God's will. Man is subordinate to God's will, but God's will does not override man's. That is His will.
     
  16. sojourner

    sojourner Active Member

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    DrBubbaLove,

    A very good answer.
    That is the correct answer to the phrase, "God desires (wills) that all men be saved'.
    But when man puts his will over God's will and trys to do what Adam did, trying to do it his way, we override God's will.
     
  17. sojourner

    sojourner Active Member

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    frumanchu,

    The reality of the world says otherwise. If it were true, then all men would in deed be saved.

    That the Holy Spirit is the agent of God in calling all men cannot be denied. But leading, influencing, and all the other words one could use here does not make the horse drink, as they say. Man, in other words, must decide. It is his will to believe, to be obedient, to follow, to abide, to stay the course, to do, do, do..........
     
  18. frumanchu

    frumanchu God's justice does not demand second chances Supporter

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    That's based on the presumption that God works faith in all men. Scripture says otherwise. I'm not concerned with what the world says. ;)



    "I will have mercy upon whom I have mercy (which is really everyone) and harden whom I will harden (I'm just saying that for show)."

    He works in man both to will and to do. He said it, not me. :)
     
  19. LLC3GUYS

    LLC3GUYS Member

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    There is another possibility here,.....that you got it wrong, or maybe you're wagering the "early" Romans got it right. See, it doesn't feel so good, does it? But, to see if we can get this thread back on topic, the way to "stay" saved is by walking and talking with Jesus, following the leading of the Holy Spirit, and boldly coming before our Father. After accepting the free gift of salvation (which is ours upon meeting Him), the doing is as stated in the preceeding sentence. any other "doing" is man-made rigamaroll. Or, as some call it, legalism. You know, Sadducees and Pharisees stuff. I've chosen to state it simply rather than waxing eloquent or presenting vain jainglings, there's been enough of that already. :preach: :liturgy: :priest: = :groupray: Got it?
     
  20. sojourner

    sojourner Active Member

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    frumanchu,

    Show me the otherwise. My Bible says that God calls all men to repentance. How about yours?

    Wrong application. Christ saved every human being. He showed mercy upon all. Romans 11:32.

    I believe it wholeheartedly. But it does not speak to your view, unfortunately. He works in man to lead, to influence to have man will and desire Him, but God cannot and will not violate His own sovereign will.
    The preceding verse tells you explicity it is a cooperative effort. Paul is telling the Phillippians to seek to do it with fear and trembling, in humility. Not boasting that it is they, but God working in and through them. God works in their hearts. His power is effective. God works in our lives to fulfill His will for us. He does a lot with and for us, but man must cooperate. Vs 14 and 15 goes on showing that they must hold fast to the Truth, the Word. Now, either Paul is saying man is a cooperative agent with God, or God is the one who holds man fast and overpowers man's will.
     
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