How Are You Save without Works and Just Faith?

[Cribstyl]

How will God judge the world? Who will end up in the lake of fire, and who will end up judging with God on his throne? Most Christians don’t know the answer to these questions. Let me ask you this, what if God commanded you to do something, would you do it? If God told you to obey him would you? God has asked this before, but in this world of “New Testament Christians”, almost everyone is taught that we don’t have to obey the laws of God any more. Most ministers today teach that all you have to do (Rom.10: 9) is confess that Jesus came in the flesh and you shall be saved. They have deceived you into believing that you need no works, that you need no fruits of faith. But if this is true, then the same question persists: how will God judge the world?

Presenting many issues make it hard for reasonable dialog on specifics. I will attempt to address one paragraph at a time.
Roman 1,2 and 3 is primarily where you'll find the doctrine of sin and judgment, including the question "how God will judge the world?"
Rom 3:6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?

This context teach that the world be judged for sin. This context teach that righteousness will no longer will judged by the law. This context explains why Paul taught we're not under the law.
I will pause for debating disagreement to my arguments.

 

[Razare]

Concerning this question: "How Are You Save without Works and Just Faith?"

Faith produces works that men could never produce on their own by their own effort.

Fruit = Works

I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. ... Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. - John 15

It's that simple. As soon as you decide to minister to the lost through your own effort and unbelief in God, you are sinning, because you are trying to bear fruit apart from the vine. And you "cannot bear fruit unless you remain in Christ".

You cannot remain in Christ by saying you are following the laws of outward behavior given by Moses.

... they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. - Romans 10

The Pharisees gave a good show of following the laws of Moses outwardly. But if it is just outward and you got sin in your soul or heart, it's useless, because Christ said:

But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. - Matthew 5:28

So when you help the poor, ect. ect. and do it all from unbelief, doubt, fear, condemnation, guilt-trips, ect. You're just sinning when you act because you feel guilty. A guilt-trip motivational sermon to give to the poor and needy is really a preaching on indulgence in sin, since it is one of the cardinal sins that sends people to eternal hell...

But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." - Revelation 21:8

It produces outward deed, but the outward deed is either born of self-works or faith, and only the later is the actual fruit of God. The former looks like fruit, but when you eat it, death ensues.

 

[Cribstyl]

Concerning this question: "How Are You Save without Works and Just Faith?"

Faith produces works that men could never produce on their own by their own effort.

Fruit = Works

I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. ... Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. - John 15

It's that simple. As soon as you decide to minister to the lost through your own effort and unbelief in God, you are sinning, because you are trying to bear fruit apart from the vine. And you "cannot bear fruit unless you remain in Christ".

You cannot remain in Christ by saying you are following the laws of outward behavior given by Moses.

... they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. - Romans 10

The Pharisees gave a good show of following the laws of Moses outwardly. But if it is just outward and you got sin in your soul or heart, it's useless, because Christ said:

But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. - Matthew 5:28

So when you help the poor, ect. ect. and do it all from unbelief, doubt, fear, condemnation, guilt-trips, ect. You're just sinning when you act because you feel guilty. A guilt-trip motivational sermon to give to the poor and needy is really a preaching on indulgence in sin, since it is one of the cardinal sins that sends people to eternal hell...

But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." - Revelation 21:8

It produces outward deed, but the outward deed is either born of self-works or faith, and only the later is the actual fruit of God. The former looks like fruit, but when you eat it, death ensues.

You're actually fighting against a clear biblical doctrine.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Paul taught that salvation is 100% gift from God based on faith and not any works. If it was by works, a person could argue that their righteous acts counts towards their salvation.
James did not contradict Paul by saying faith without works is dead.
The works of faith is acting on what you claim to believe. James explained that devils believe and tremble (because they have faith in God's word about their destination). Abraham's faith was to believe God's promise and leave his mother and father and move to another country. Rahab's faith was to hide the spies because she believe that the God of Israel would conquer her people the Philistines.

So James is not talking about keeping laws, He's saying that faith is not empty words, it causes acting out what you believe.

 

[FireDragon76]

Justifying faith produces good works.

 

[Razare]

So James is not talking about keeping laws, He's saying that faith is not empty words, it causes acting out what you believe.

If you think the cause is your effort, then James did not say that. If you understand the cause is God himself, then you are right.

James did not say, "When I believe God, in my own effort, apart from God's provision, I will produce good works."

If you think he said that, please find the verse but I have never read it anywhere.

The lie here is that we could give to the poor in our own effort and take the glory. The answer is, we can only give to the poor by what God has already given us.

So "acting out what you believe" implies there is a burden placed upon you to do what you said, which is an oath before God and a sin.

And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. - Matthew 5:36

And so when you have faith as Paul said, it produces works of faith as James describes. It is not you producing the work because even Christ did not produce works of himself...

Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. - John 14:10

As the Father lived in Christ doing works through Christ, Christ lives in us doing works through us. When you have faith this *will* occur that you bear fruit to God. We were made to bear fruit. It will happen by faith. If it never happens, you were never saved and never had faith just as James says, "your faith is dead."

But there is no work you can do in your own effort to produce this fruit, only God through you can produce it.

A lot of people read James and think there is a work they will do to save themselves. It is impossible. No, God bears the fruit of your salvation through you by his grace and provision. This is the faith James is describing.

Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. - Matthew 7:19

This verse applies to every Christian, but every Christian will produce fruit by faith, it is ordained by God that you will. It is impossible that it does not happen even if you remain ignorant of your fruit.

 

[Razare]

Justifying faith produces good works.

Exactly. I am not even sure what we're disagreeing about here. This should be common knowledge.

You're saved by faith. It will produce works. You have the fruit of God, and so those with totally dead faith and no fruit go to hell eternally... but even a deathbed confession manifests the faith of God which raises the dead. And when that person is raised from the dead by God's power which produces the work, their faith is proven valid and true by the work, and they have born the fruit of God avoiding eternal destruction.

But if a person can't realize that being raised from the dead by the faith God has given us is a work of God, then they fail to understand there are 2 types of work.

 

[FireDragon76]

There always seems to be controversy about this, ever since the reformation there have been those that interpret the doctrine as antinomianism, that good works are not "necessary". But it really isn't so. Perhaps it is down to bad preaching or bad teaching.

 

[bugkiller]

Exactly. I am not even sure what we're disagreeing about here. This should be common knowledge.

You're saved by faith. It will produce works. You have the fruit of God, and so those with totally dead faith and no fruit go to hell eternally... but even a deathbed confession manifests the faith of God which raises the dead. And when that person is raised from the dead by God's power which produces the work, their faith is proven valid and true by the work, and they have born the fruit of God avoiding eternal destruction.

But if a person can't realize that being raised from the dead by the faith God has given us is a work of God, then they fail to understand there are 2 types of work.

The difference I believe is one's faith will produce works oft he law and call them good works. That simply isn't what James says.

bugkiller

 

[Cribstyl]

If you think the cause is your effort, then James did not say that. If you understand the cause is God himself, then you are right.

James did not say, "When I believe God, in my own effort, apart from God's provision, I will produce good works."

If you think he said that, please find the verse but I have never read it anywhere.

The lie here is that we could give to the poor in our own effort and take the glory. The answer is, we can only give to the poor by what God has already given us.

So "acting out what you believe" implies there is a burden placed upon you to do what you said, which is an oath before God and a sin.

And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. - Matthew 5:36

And so when you have faith as Paul said, it produces works of faith as James describes. It is not you producing the work because even Christ did not produce works of himself...

Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. - John 14:10

As the Father lived in Christ doing works through Christ, Christ lives in us doing works through us. When you have faith this *will* occur that you bear fruit to God. We were made to bear fruit. It will happen by faith. If it never happens, you were never saved and never had faith just as James says, "your faith is dead."

But there is no work you can do in your own effort to produce this fruit, only God through you can produce it.

A lot of people read James and think there is a work they will do to save themselves. It is impossible. No, God bears the fruit of your salvation through you by his grace and provision. This is the faith James is describing.

Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. - Matthew 7:19

This verse applies to every Christian, but every Christian will produce fruit by faith, it is ordained by God that you will. It is impossible that it does not happen even if you remain ignorant of your fruit.

I don't recognize saying what you are rambling about. I'm out here.

 

[Bro.T]

Presenting many issues make it hard for reasonable dialog on specifics. I will attempt to address one paragraph at a time.
Roman 1,2 and 3 is primarily where you'll find the doctrine of sin and judgment, including the question "how God will judge the world?"
Rom 3:6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?

This context teach that the world be judged for sin. This context teach that righteousness will no longer will judged by the law. This context explains why Paul taught we're not under the law.
I will pause for debating disagreement to my arguments.

I understand, what people don't understand is that Paul talks about more then one law. The question then should be ask what laws was nail to the cross and what laws are still on the table. Paul talks about three laws, and only two of them are nail to the cross. What you have to keep in mind that God had Peter to clearly warn people about some of Paul’s writing. (2Peter:3:15-16) (v.15) And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; (v.16) As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

 

[Bro.T]

I have no fear of any man or woman. I have standards very different from the world and organized religion and am therefore ostracized. Yep there's a price to be paid. But you know I have an uncommon peace that people are jealous about.

bugkiller

Interesting

 

[Bro.T]

People we must realize, that it is the keeping of God’s holy (commandments) laws that separates the righteous from the unrighteous. In (Titus: 3:8) This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men. You must learn (by the word of God) what God expects of you and maintain his expectations to the end, if you expect to be saved. Jesus say in (Matt. 5:16) Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. You are supposed to glorify your Father in heaven, and let your light shine before men. And how do you do that? By having good works. Sometimes as a Christian you don’t have to say a word, people will see your works. Lets go into (Ezek. 33:30-32) Also, thou son of man, the children of thy people still are talking against thee by the walls and in the doors of the houses, and speak one to another, every one to his brother saying, Come, I pray you, and hear what is the word that cometh forth from the Lord. (v.31) And they come unto thee as the people cometh, and they sit before thee as my people, and they hear thy words, but they will not do them: for with their mouth they shew much love, but their heart goeth after their covetousness. (v. 32) And, lo, thou art unto them as a very lovely song of one that hath a pleasant voice, and can play well on an instrument: for they hear thy words, but they do them not. Hopefully the time will come when you realize that you need more than lip service when it comes to serving the Lord. You must learn what thus saith the Lord, and do it!

 

[bugkiller]

I understand, what people don't understand is that Paul talks about more then one law. The question then should be ask what laws was nail to the cross and what laws are still on the table. Paul talks about three laws, and only two of them are nail to the cross. What you have to keep in mind that God had Peter to clearly warn people about some of Paul’s writing. (2Peter:3:15-16) (v.15) And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; (v.16) As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Please give us some examples of the different laws and the passage(s) you connect to them.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

People we must realize, that it is the keeping of God’s holy (commandments) laws that separates the righteous from the unrighteous. In (Titus: 3:8) This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men. You must learn (by the word of God) what God expects of you and maintain his expectations to the end, if you expect to be saved. Jesus say in (Matt. 5:16) Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. You are supposed to glorify your Father in heaven, and let your light shine before men. And how do you do that? By having good works. Sometimes as a Christian you don’t have to say a word, people will see your works. Lets go into (Ezek. 33:30-32) Also, thou son of man, the children of thy people still are talking against thee by the walls and in the doors of the houses, and speak one to another, every one to his brother saying, Come, I pray you, and hear what is the word that cometh forth from the Lord. (v.31) And they come unto thee as the people cometh, and they sit before thee as my people, and they hear thy words, but they will not do them: for with their mouth they shew much love, but their heart goeth after their covetousness. (v. 32) And, lo, thou art unto them as a very lovely song of one that hath a pleasant voice, and can play well on an instrument: for they hear thy words, but they do them not. Hopefully the time will come when you realize that you need more than lip service when it comes to serving the Lord. You must learn what thus saith the Lord, and do it!

Name these good works you talk about.

bugkiller

 

[Bro.T]

Name these good works you talk about.

bugkiller

You mean the good works the Bible talks about? Lets go to James 2:[15] If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
[16] And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

 

[Bro.T]

Please give us some examples of the different laws and the passage(s) you connect to them.

bugkiller

Do mean give you an example of the different laws and the passage(s) you connect to them? You can find those different laws in the first five books of Moses, Genesis to Deuteronomy.

 

[Born Again2004]

They have deceived you into believing that you need no works, that you need no fruits of faith. But if this is true, then the same question persists: how will God judge the world?

• You don't need works, not of your own...you need Christ's work through you!
• Not that you won't have fruits...you will bare his fruit through you....Without him you can do nothing but with him in you, you will bare much fruit....fruit of the vine!
• God will judge by one single solitary aspect...is Christ in you or not!

 

[Bro.T]

Paul said in (Gal. 3:11) But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH. This didn’t start in the New Testament, Paul was only quoting scripture, and the just has always lived by their faith. In (Hab. 2:4) Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith. The just shall live by his belief (faith), and how do you show the Lord that you believe in him? By your obedience to his word. Lets go to (1Tim. 6:17-19) (v.17) Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not high-minded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy; (v.18) That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate; (v.19) Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life. Riches and gains that is the doctrine of today, they are preaching the gospel of prosperity and not the gospel of the coming of the kingdom of God. But the Lord said to charge them that are rich in this world that they be not high-minded, but that they should be rich in good works that they may lay hold on eternal life.

 

[Bro.T]

Lets go into (James 2:14-18, 20-26) (v.14) What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him? (v.15) If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of a daily food, (v.16) And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? If someone came to you hungry and needed clothes and all you told them was peace be unto you, and God bless you, be ye warmed and filled. All you did was give lip service, no works, you didn’t help the problem. (v.17) Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. The bible has been telling you all alone that you must have fruits to prove your faith. (v.18) Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. True faith goes hand in hand with good works. (v.20) But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Did you know that? Has anybody ever read this verse to you? How can you, after reading this verse ever say again that we need not work? You can have all the faith you want, but if you have no works to go along with that faith, that faith is in vain, that faith is dead. (v.21) Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? We read where Abraham, the father of the faithful showed the Lord his faith by his works. (v.22) Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? (v.23) And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD AND IT WAS IMPUTED UNTO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS: and he was called the friend of God. (v.24) Ye see then how that by works a man is Justified, and not by faith only. Do you see that also? Do you understand that you need works to go along with that faith; if you love and fear God then you should have no problem obeying his commandments. (v.25) Likewise also was not Ra’-hab the harlot justified by works, when she received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? Ra’-hab showed her faith in God and her fear of God by doing good works. (v.26) For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. Take it or leave it, but this is the true uncut word of God. Just as the body is dead when you take away the spirit (breath) so faith is dead if you have no works.

 

[Bro.T]

• You don't need works, not of your own...you need Christ's work through you!
• Not that you won't have fruits...you will bare his fruit through you....Without him you can do nothing but with him in you, you will bare much fruit....fruit of the vine!
• God will judge by one single solitary aspect...is Christ in you or not!

The bible has been telling you all alone that you must have fruits to prove your faith. In James 2: (v.18) Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. True faith goes hand in hand with good works. (v.20) But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Did you know that? Has anybody ever read this verse to you? How can you, after reading this verse ever say again that we need not work? You can have all the faith you want, but if you have no works to go along with that faith, that faith is in vain, that faith is dead. (v.21) Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? We read where Abraham, the father of the faithful showed the Lord his faith by his works. (v.22) Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? (v.23) And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD AND IT WAS IMPUTED UNTO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS: and he was called the friend of God. (v.24) Ye see then how that by works a man is Justified, and not by faith only. Do you see that also? Do you understand that you need works to go along with that faith; if you love and fear God then you should have no problem obeying his commandments. (v.25) Likewise also was not Ra’-hab the harlot justified by works, when she received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? Ra’-hab showed her faith in God and her fear of God by doing good works. (v.26) For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. Take it or leave it, but this is the true uncut word of God. Just as the body is dead when you take away the spirit (breath) so faith is dead if you have no works.