How Are You Save without Works and Just Faith?

[bugkiller]

Paul talks about three laws in the new Testament, and of course all the others laws are in the Old Testament.

Please name and reference them. Thanks

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Paul said in (2Tim. 4:1) I CHARGE thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom. And by what means will he use to judge you? You will be judged according to your works, pertaining to the commandments.

Jesus said in (John 17:3-4) (v.3) And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. (v.4) I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. Yes Jesus did much work. He is the captain of our salvation and the captain is leading by his example, by his works.

Paul said in (Phil. 2:12) Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Now if you need not work, then why is Paul telling you to “WORK” out your own salvation, and pay close attention because he also says with “fear and trembling”.

I have no idea what this above post has to do with this thread.

bugkiller

 

[Travis93]

Such as....

bugkiller

Well you seem to think Jesus came to destroy the law, contrary to what he said in Matthew 7:19, and you are teaching others to break laws by saying they are done away with, in contrast to Matthew 7:21. I don't know about you, but I don't want to be least in the kingdom of heaven, so I'm not going to promote lawlessness like you. Heaven and earth haven't passed away yet, so according to Matthew 7:18 and Luke 16:17, all of it still applies.

 

[bugkiller]

Well you seem to think Jesus came to destroy the law, contrary to what he said in Matthew 7:19, and you are teaching others to break laws by saying they are done away with, in contrast to Matthew 7:21. I don't know about you, but I don't want to be least in the kingdom of heaven, so I'm not going to promote lawlessness like you. Heaven and earth haven't passed away yet, so according to Matthew 7:18 and Luke 16:17, all of it still applies.

What is it about LK 24:44 you don't understand?

What is it about new you don't understand?

What is it about not according to you don't understand?

What is it about this is the new testament (covenant) in my blood you don't understand?

What is it about now we are delivered from the law you don't understand?

What is it about the law and prophets were until John you don't understand?

What is it about until the seed should come you don't understand?

Where have I promoted lawlessness (wicked behavior)?

Why are you personally attacking me instead of responding directly to my statements/posts?

bugkiller

 

[bcbsr]

... in this world of “New Testament Christians”, almost everyone is taught that we don’t have to obey the laws of God any more. Most ministers today teach that all you have to do (Rom.10: 9) is confess that Jesus came in the flesh and you shall be saved. They have deceived you into believing that you need no works, that you need no fruits of faith. But if this is true, then the same question persists: how will God judge the world....

First of all you're violating the rules of this forum. For the README post says, "This is a reminder of the rules. From the Statement of Purpose of this forum:

Although the Law of God is pleasing to a believer it is not a necessary requirement for salvation. (Psalms 119:174; Galatians 3:10, Galatians 5:18)

We've had some issues with this lately. Please remember that you cannot promote the idea that the Law must be kept in order to attain salvation."

Though I don't mind debating the matter.

Jesus himself said, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24

So, to answer your question as to how would God judge, He judges based upon whether a person is trusting Christ to save him or whether the person is putting trust in his own performance to justify him, such as you advocate.

You may be envious of the freedom of those who experience the hope, joy and peace of trust in Christ and not worrying about one's salvation. For those who trust in Christ leave it up to Christ to save them.

"Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works" Rom 4:4-6

Those who have put their trust in Christ are subsequently born of God, and will naturally follow Christ AS SAVED PEOPLE. For "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9

Those who don't believe the gospel, and consequently have not been born of God, are unfamiliar with impact regeneration has on one's behavior, and so they fabricate a salvation by works gospel in order to motivate unbelievers to behave right based upon fear of condemnation.

"This matter arose because some false brothers had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and to make us slaves." Gal 2:4

 

[Bro.T]

First of all you're violating the rules of this forum. For the README post says, "This is a reminder of the rules. From the Statement of Purpose of this forum:

Although the Law of God is pleasing to a believer it is not a necessary requirement for salvation. (Psalms 119:174; Galatians 3:10, Galatians 5:18)

We've had some issues with this lately. Please remember that you cannot promote the idea that the Law must be kept in order to attain salvation."

Though I don't mind debating the matter.

Jesus himself said, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24

So, to answer your question as to how would God judge, He judges based upon whether a person is trusting Christ to save him or whether the person is putting trust in his own performance to justify him, such as you advocate.

You may be envious of the freedom of those who experience the hope, joy and peace of trust in Christ and not worrying about one's salvation. For those who trust in Christ leave it up to Christ to save them.

"Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works" Rom 4:4-6

Those who have put their trust in Christ are subsequently born of God, and will naturally follow Christ AS SAVED PEOPLE. For "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9

Those who don't believe the gospel, and consequently have not been born of God, are unfamiliar with impact regeneration has on one's behavior, and so they fabricate a salvation by works gospel in order to motivate unbelievers to behave right based upon fear of condemnation.

"This matter arose because some false brothers had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and to make us slaves." Gal 2:4

Those are all good verses, and they all have they place. But there are things that comes before other things. Faiths and works go hand in hand, but the law (commandments) goes without saying. Didn't Paul say in (Rom. 7:7,12) (v.7) What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, THOU SHALT NOT COVET. Paul asked a question, is the law sin? He said God forbid, he said the only way that he knew what sin was, was by the law. (v.12) Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Why in the world would a Christian want to do away with something that God said is holy. (Rom. 4:15) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. If you read somewhere in the Bible where Paul talks about doing away with a law, then understand its not this Law (commandments)! Paul talks about other Laws that consist of other things, that got nail to the cross. As long as sin is in the world, the Lord's Laws (commandments) will be in the world. Paul said in (Rom. 5:13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. If there is no law, there is no sin!

 

[bcbsr]

Those are all good verses, and they all have they place. But there are things that comes before other things. Faiths and works go hand in hand, but the law (commandments) goes without saying. Didn't Paul say in (Rom. 7:7,12) (v.7) What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, THOU SHALT NOT COVET. Paul asked a question, is the law sin? He said God forbid, he said the only way that he knew what sin was, was by the law. (v.12) Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Why in the world would a Christian want to do away with something that God said is holy. (Rom. 4:15) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. If you read somewhere in the Bible where Paul talks about doing away with a law, then understand its not this Law (commandments)! Paul talks about other Laws that consist of other things, that got nail to the cross. As long as sin is in the world, the Lord's Laws (commandments) will be in the world. Paul said in (Rom. 5:13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. If there is no law, there is no sin!

So are you saying that one must be circumcised (a commandment in the Law) and follow the Law of Moses to be save?

 

[bugkiller]

First of all you're violating the rules of this forum. For the README post says, "This is a reminder of the rules. From the Statement of Purpose of this forum:

Although the Law of God is pleasing to a believer it is not a necessary requirement for salvation. (Psalms 119:174; Galatians 3:10, Galatians 5:18)

We've had some issues with this lately. Please remember that you cannot promote the idea that the Law must be kept in order to attain salvation."

Though I don't mind debating the matter.

Jesus himself said, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24

So, to answer your question as to how would God judge, He judges based upon whether a person is trusting Christ to save him or whether the person is putting trust in his own performance to justify him, such as you advocate.

You may be envious of the freedom of those who experience the hope, joy and peace of trust in Christ and not worrying about one's salvation. For those who trust in Christ leave it up to Christ to save them.

"Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works" Rom 4:4-6

Those who have put their trust in Christ are subsequently born of God, and will naturally follow Christ AS SAVED PEOPLE. For "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9

Those who don't believe the gospel, and consequently have not been born of God, are unfamiliar with impact regeneration has on one's behavior, and so they fabricate a salvation by works gospel in order to motivate unbelievers to behave right based upon fear of condemnation.

"This matter arose because some false brothers had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and to make us slaves." Gal 2:4

This above post bears worth repeating.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Those are all good verses, and they all have they place. But there are things that comes before other things. Faiths and works go hand in hand, but the law (commandments) goes without saying. Didn't Paul say in (Rom. 7:7,12) (v.7) What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, THOU SHALT NOT COVET. Paul asked a question, is the law sin? He said God forbid, he said the only way that he knew what sin was, was by the law. (v.12) Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Why in the world would a Christian want to do away with something that God said is holy. (Rom. 4:15) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. If you read somewhere in the Bible where Paul talks about doing away with a law, then understand its not this Law (commandments)! Paul talks about other Laws that consist of other things, that got nail to the cross. As long as sin is in the world, the Lord's Laws (commandments) will be in the world. Paul said in (Rom. 5:13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. If there is no law, there is no sin!

Didn't Paul say -

6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. Rom 7

So sorry you don't think that includes you. It does include me.

bugkiller

 

[Travis93]

Didn't Paul say -

6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. Rom 7

So sorry you don't think that includes you. It does include me.

bugkiller

We are delivered from the law of sin, so that we can keep the law in spirit beyond just the letter of the law. The law is holy, just, and good according to Romans 7:12. It's also spiritual according to Romans 7:14. Paul delights in the law according to Romans 7:22. Romans 7:23 says the other law inside him is warring against God's holy law, that being the law of sin, his sinful nature. From this, we can see there are two laws in Paul's letters, every time he seems to be talking about God's perfect, everlasting, holy laws it is clear he's talking about the law of sin.

 

[Bro.T]

Didn't Paul say -

6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. Rom 7

So sorry you don't think that includes you. It does include me.

bugkiller

What law is that, Paul is talking about?

 

[Bro.T]

So are you saying that one must be circumcised (a commandment in the Law) and follow the Law of Moses to be save?

I'm not saying anything, Paul is doing all the saying. Paul made himself clear.

 

[Bro.T]

Again you must work unto the end. Lets go to (1Peter 1:15-17) (v.15) But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all Manner of conversation; (v.16) Because it is written, BE YE HOLY; FOR I AM HOLY. (V.17) And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: It says you had better be holy, because God is holy. And it also says that ye call on the Father, but you had better remember that he is going to without respect of person judge every man according to his work. So you better pass your time here on earth in fear

 

[bugkiller]

We are delivered from the law of sin, so that we can keep the law in spirit beyond just the letter of the law.

That simply isn't what the text says.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

What law is that, Paul is talking about?

The Law.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Again you must work unto the end. Lets go to (1Peter 1:15-17) (v.15) But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all Manner of conversation; (v.16) Because it is written, BE YE HOLY; FOR I AM HOLY. (V.17) And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: It says you had better be holy, because God is holy. And it also says that ye call on the Father, but you had better remember that he is going to without respect of person judge every man according to his work. So you better pass your time here on earth in fear

So threaten us

bugkiller

 

[Travis93]

So threaten us

bugkiller

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

 

[Geralt]

the answer to your question is fairly simple and is the very heart of the gospel.
and if you have not know it, you have missed the gospel itself.

that by Faith in Christ, his righteousness becomes ours ; or
that by faith in christ alone, we are saved by His works.
His works of righteousness becomes our works of righteousness.​

the reformers call this "imputation".

How will God judge the world? Who will end up in the lake of fire, and who will end up judging with God on his throne? Most Christians don’t know the answer to these questions. Let me ask you this, what if God commanded you to do something, would you do it? If God told you to obey him would you? God has asked this before, but in this world of “New Testament Christians”, almost everyone is taught that we don’t have to obey the laws of God any more. Most ministers today teach that all you have to do (Rom.10: 9) is confess that Jesus came in the flesh and you shall be saved. They have deceived you into believing that you need no works, that you need no fruits of faith. But if this is true, then the same question persists: how will God judge the world?

What if the God of the old and New Testament were one and the same; what if he said, “Keep my Sabbaths”, would you? What if he said, “Keep My Feasts” because the bible says that these are the Feasts of the Lord, and not the feasts of the Jews, would you? What if he said, “Keep my Commandments and my Judgments” would you keep them or would you allow some false prophet to convince you that they are no longer valid? What if he said, “I have an Everlasting Covenant and that I shed my blood for it,” would you believe him? Can you be saved by faith only? Do works matter? In this text lesson we are by way of the bible, going to prove to you that if you have faith in God then you will bring forth fruits of that faith.

From the Merriam Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary the definition of the word faith is; believe, trust. Now then how do you show the Lord that you believe in him? By your works, that’s how. Let’s go to the chapter in the bible that people call the faith chapter.

Lets go into (Heb.11: 1-2, 7, 17, 24-26, 31, 35, 39-40) (v.1) Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. (v.2) For by it the elders obtained a good report. Now by the elder’s faith (belief) in God they obtained a good report. But how did theses elders show God that they had faith (belief) in him? Let’s take a look at some of them. (v.7) By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness, which is by faith. How did Noah prove to God that he had faith in him? By his works! Noah moved with faith and fear and began preparing the ark. (v.17) By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that received the promises offered up his only begotten son. Now here is the father of the faithful, and how did he show God the he had faith in him? By his works! The Lord God told Abraham to go and sacrifice his son, his only son. And Abraham’s faith was so strong that he was seconds’ way from killing his only son when the angel of the Lord stopped him, now that’s truly fruits of faith. (v.24) By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter; (v.25) Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; (v.26) Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompense of the reward.


Moses knew who he was once he became of age unlike the movie would have you to believe. How did Moses show his faith? By his works! But through faith he chose to suffer affliction with the people of God rather than enjoy the pleasures of sin by continuing to allow himself to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter: esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt. You see Moses knew exactly whom he was dealing with, and it’s best that you learn that the God of the Old Testament is the same God of the New Testament and his name is Jesus. (v.31) By faith the harlot Ra’-hab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace. The Harlot Ra’- hab showed her faith in God by her works! She hid the spies sent by Joshua, and the Lord blessed her and her family by saving them when he took down the city of Jericho. (v.35) Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: How strong is your faith, will you endure affliction, torture, imprisonment, stoning, and even die for the word of God? These people showed their faith in God by their works, not accepting deliverance because they were looking for a better resurrection. What’s a better resurrection? The first resurrection is a better resurrection because if you are raised in the first resurrection you will not be judged; you will be doing the judging. But all of these people we just read about showed you fruits of faith they showed you works. (v.39) And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: They received a good report through faith. But how did they show their faith (belief) in God? By their works, and they all died with a good report having not received the promise. (v.40) God having provided some better things for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. Everybody that has a better resurrection coming will receive it at the same time. That’s why it says that they without us will not be made perfect. Who is perfect? God is perfect. God is recreating God. That’s another lesson for another time.

 

[Bro.T]

the answer to your question is fairly simple and is the very heart of the gospel.
and if you have not know it, you have missed the gospel itself.

that by Faith in Christ, his righteousness becomes ours ; or
that by faith in christ alone, we are saved by His works.
His works of righteousness becomes our works of righteousness.​

the reformers call this "imputation".

Well you got me there...I must have missed something, because what I read was; you freely accepted Jesus in your life, you can also freely choose to stop serving him. Jesus said with his own mouth; (Matt. 24:13) But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. That is until the end of your life, or until the Second Coming of the Lord. Again in Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. Lets take a look at what Paul say in 1 Timothy 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee. Pay attention to whats being said here and quote verses and scriptures to prove your points from the Bible.

 

[Bro.T]

Paul said in (Heb. 6:10-11) (v.10) For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. (v.11) And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to full assurance of hope unto the end: God is not going to forget your works, nor your labor of love toward his name. But you need to show these same works diligence to have full assurance of hope unto the end. Hope of what? Hope of eternal life. To the end of what? To the end of your life or to the coming of the Lord. You must work until the end! Jesus said in (Rev. 2:26) And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: