How are we to explain these "miracles?"

[Heissonear]

Jealous?

I think the posters are doing a bang-up job of degrading themselves, actually. The more they try to pass themselves off as special and superior to the rest of us, the sadder they seem.

What true miracles? I've been asking for one, and so far, none of the special people have delivered the goods.

Then I offered up one as a a possibility, and all I got was a lot of tap-dancing.

Throwing in the towel, and expecting others to do your work for you? How typical.

.

Nice try. You presented trash-talk once again rather than COMMENT on the content.

You have been over your head in this whole thread. Has it been a matter overly difficult for you to mentally coordinate?

Then there has been ploy - to undermine the supports of the subject in trying to pass the content as unreal, Miracles are tricks, Miracles are from charlatans, and on goes the list.

Any and everything but the truth that God is and He regularly performs Miracles.

Yes, I witnessed a few Miracles, one presented in these posts of a young child in mothers arm's with a severely deformed arm. With a friend beside me we witnessed God through His Holy Spirit Rule over the natural, within about eight seconds He lengthened and made normal the little arm. He Created body materials right before us as the child's arm was changed by Him.

Now, tell me there is no God. Tell me He does not perform Miracles in our "modern" day and age. Tell me He does not Create matter at will with Precision and Intelligence. Tell me this Miracle did not happen. Show your doubt and bias interpretations, even your empty hands about the Kingdom of God in our midst.

Or, consider you just might have followed modern godless men who have taken the place of God in claiming what this existence is about.

.

 

[TLK Valentine]

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Nice try. You presented trash-talk once again rather than COMMENT on the content.

What content? You demanded I do your work for you -- did you think nobody would notice?

You have been over your head in this whole thread. Has it been a matter overly difficult for you to mentally coordinate?

And now you lash out when caught.

Then there has been ploy - to undermine the supports of the subject in trying to pass the content as unreal, Miracles are tricks, Miracles are from charlatans, and on goes the list.

Must be infuriating when people don't find your anecdotes as convincing as you do...


Still waiting for your input on the Sago Mine incident, by the way.

Any and everything but the truth that God is and He regularly performs Miracles.

It's been your job to establish that as "truth" -- don't blame others for your failues.

Yes, I witnessed a few Miracles, one presented in these posts of a young child in mothers arm's with a severely deformed arm. With a friend beside me we witnessed God through His Holy Spirit Rule over the natural, within about eight seconds He lengthened and made normal the little arm. He Created body materials right before us as the child's arm was changed by Him.

I've witnessed David Copperfield make the Statue of Liberty disappear; I've witnessed psychic surgeons remove cancerous growths without cutting into the skin; I've witnessed men pass through walls, levitate into the air, and walk on water.

The difference? I know when I'm being tricked, even if I don't immediately know how...

Now, tell me there is no God.

Not my place to say.

Tell me He does not perform Miracles in our "modern" day and age.

If He does, He doesn't do them for your benefit.

Tell me He does not Create matter at will with Precision and Intelligence.

Never seen it happen.

Tell me this Miracle did not happen.

I know how they do happen -- a baby's arm is a new twist on an old carnival trick -- they usually do legs: the shoe on one foot is pulled slightly off and forward while the leg is pulled forward to give an illusion that a shorter leg has suddenly grown longer. From a forward camera angle this slight of hand trick looks pretty impressive.

Show your doubt and bias interpretations, even your empty hands about the Kingdom of God in our midst.

Your midst, Heiss -- and that's the point.

Or, consider you just might have followed modern godless men who have taken the place of God in claiming what this existence is about.

You want to deny that you've been had, that's fine -- smarter men than you have been taken.

 

[stevevw]

Heres some more miracles I found that seem to have some credence to them.

In 1972, Ray Jackson had a kidney removed in the Duke University Medical Center because of cancer. He recovered well, but two years later doctors had to remove a finger because they found cancer had spread there. Shortly after they found cancer in his spine, pelvis, breastbone and leg, and this time surgery was out of the question. (Two bone scans are reproduced in the book.) He was booked in for radiation treatment, but advised he could expect to live no more than a year.
Many friends were praying for his healing, and before he began the radiation treatment, he woke in the night to hear a voice tell him he would be healed. The next day he attended a 'Kathryn Kuhlman miracle service', during which the pain disappeared instantly. Tests the next day still showed the lesions, but subsequent tests showed that healthy new bone had filled in where the lesions had been. This case is notable because of the wealth of medical detail available from Duke to confirm the healing.

ten healing miracles

 

[Heissonear]

Heres some more miracles I found that seem to have some credence to them.

In 1972, Ray Jackson had a kidney removed in the Duke University Medical Center because of cancer. He recovered well, but two years later doctors had to remove a finger because they found cancer had spread there. Shortly after they found cancer in his spine, pelvis, breastbone and leg, and this time surgery was out of the question. (Two bone scans are reproduced in the book.) He was booked in for radiation treatment, but advised he could expect to live no more than a year.
Many friends were praying for his healing, and before he began the radiation treatment, he woke in the night to hear a voice tell him he would be healed. The next day he attended a 'Kathryn Kuhlman miracle service', during which the pain disappeared instantly. Tests the next day still showed the lesions, but subsequent tests showed that healthy new bone had filled in where the lesions had been. This case is notable because of the wealth of medical detail available from Duke to confirm the healing.

ten healing miracles

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Nice find Steve. You know that instances like this Creative Healing happen all the time. Surprisingly the unbelievers want us to dig and find when and where the documented cases occur rather than them earnestly seeking and inquiring.

Why do they also "speak negatively" about instances of God performing Miracles? Why have they so far not only not researched and found their own, but trash and push aside what HAS been presented to them?

.

 

[TLK Valentine]

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Nice find Steve. You know that instances like this Creative Healing happen all the time. Surprisingly the unbelievers want us to dig and find when and where the documented cases occur rather than them earnestly seeking and inquiring.

Why do they also "speak negatively" about instances of God performing Miracles? Why have they so far not only not researched and found their own, but trash and push aside what HAS been presented to them?

.

Wait a minute -- you're going to call it a miracle without knowing all the facts behind it? Aren't you jumping the gun, just as you were afraid to do concerning the Sago Mine incident?

 

[Heissonear]

What content?

I've witnessed David Copperfield make the Statue of Liberty disappear; I've witnessed psychic surgeons remove cancerous growths without cutting into the skin; I've witnessed men pass through walls, levitate into the air, and walk on water.

The difference? I know when I'm being tricked, even if I don't immediately know how...

If He does, He doesn't do them for your benefit.


I know how they do happen -- a baby's arm is a new twist on an old carnival trick -- they usually do legs: the shoe on one foot is pulled slightly off and forward while the leg is pulled forward to give an illusion that a shorter leg has suddenly grown longer. From a forward camera angle this slight of hand trick looks pretty impressive.

Your midst, Heiss -- and that's the point.

You want to deny that you've been had, that's fine -- smarter men than you have been taken.

.

Well, well, we have the recorded posts to testify of how those in unbelief reject Miracles from Him on High. Basically, they do not happen, and never have in history. There are natural reasons why they happen! That is THE FAITH of those who walk in Naturalism. They cannot prove Miracles do not happen, but they affirmatively think and believe they do not happen. A big reason is they follow the words and findings of mere men, godless men and what the godless think and believe.

Now that we have a list of "other explanations" for why "Miracles do not happen" it is time to further expose their devious and erroneous conclusions.

The Miracle I have witnessed of a little child's severely deformed arm becoming lengthened and normal spontaneously has more information of it occurring than TLK and others have "assumed". If you read TLK's statements above there was no Miracle, I have been deceived and went for it. All to protect the world unbelievers live in, less their world would need to change. I'll add, change for the good!

The setting where the Child's arm was Miraculously made whole and normal was at a church gathering. The lady with child was known by others and was invited. People knew of the child's deformed arm and the women's deep concern for her child. The woman's attendance to the church meeting was for the child to be healed. Period. After the Miracle she started attending one of the local churches with others who knew her and the child before the Miracle. The Miracle was not an act of: deception by the lady and others; a trick; just imagination; lacked real Supernatural evidence; not witnessed by many others, particularly not witnessed by you, and so on.

How sad to see the depth of doubt in others in how they wrote the Miracle off as never happening.

Many know that just one Miracle splits the foundation of Naturalism: one Miracle proves Naturalism (and Scientism) is based on error, not truth; that Supernatural Power and Realm exists.

This should be Good News but to many it hasn't been. People should seek the Lord on High till THEY find Him!

.

 

[TLK Valentine]

The Miracle I have witnessed of a little child's severely deformed arm becoming lengthened and normal spontaneously has more information of it occurring than TLK and others have "assumed". If you read TLK's statements above there was no Miracle, I have been deceived and went for it. All to protect the world unbelievers live in, less their world would need to change. I'll add, change for the good!

The setting where the Child's arm was Miraculously made whole and normal was at a church gathering. The lady with child was known by others and was invited. People knew of the child's deformed arm and the women's deep concern for her child. The woman's attendance to the church meeting was for the child to be healed. Period. After the Miracle she started attending one of the local churches with others who knew her and the child before the Miracle. The Miracle was not an act of: deception by the lady and others; a trick; just imagination; lacked real Supernatural evidence; not witnessed by many others, particularly not witnessed by you, and so on.

You knew the lady in question? You had seen the child's arm before the miracle happened?

You say that "people" knew of this -- but did you?

 

[[serious]]

Heres some more miracles I found that seem to have some credence to them.

In 1972, Ray Jackson had a kidney removed in the Duke University Medical Center because of cancer. He recovered well, but two years later doctors had to remove a finger because they found cancer had spread there. Shortly after they found cancer in his spine, pelvis, breastbone and leg, and this time surgery was out of the question. (Two bone scans are reproduced in the book.) He was booked in for radiation treatment, but advised he could expect to live no more than a year.
Many friends were praying for his healing, and before he began the radiation treatment, he woke in the night to hear a voice tell him he would be healed. The next day he attended a 'Kathryn Kuhlman miracle service', during which the pain disappeared instantly. Tests the next day still showed the lesions, but subsequent tests showed that healthy new bone had filled in where the lesions had been. This case is notable because of the wealth of medical detail available from Duke to confirm the healing.

ten healing miracles

A cancer patient undergoing treatment survived the cancer? What makes this a miracle exactly?

 

[stevevw]

A cancer patient undergoing treatment survived the cancer? What makes this a miracle exactly?

So you dont believe in miracles as well.

If you read it he hadn't received the treatment as yet. The cancer had spread throughout his body. His friends prayed for him before he started the radiation treatment. He had a dream he would be healed and the next day he went to a miracle service and said he felt all his pain go. When he went to the doctors the test showed that new bone had grown where the lesions were and he was healed of his cancer. Don't you think it strange that after people had prayed for him and he went to a miracle meeting that he was soon healed. Or is that just another coincident. The thing with this case is there is medical records to back it up.

Did you read the other ones. Most were healed after prayer. Heres another coincident.
Lisa Larios

Lisa was diagnosed with cancer of the hip when she was 12, and was unable to walk unaided. Her family decided chemotherapy was too traumatic and called it off after one dose. The family were Catholic, though not very religious, and a family friend invited the family to a christian healing meeting conducted by 'healing evangelist' Kathryn Kuhlman. The friend fasted and prayed for a week beforehand.
During the service, Lisa felt a warm feeling in her stomach, and Kathryn Kuhlman said someone in her section of the auditorium was being healed from cancer and should stand up. Lisa, against her mother's wishes, stood up and was able to walk without pain for the first time since the problem had appeared. Lisa was X-rayed several times after that, and it became clear that something strange had indeed occurred. Further X-rays (reproduced in the book) were taken and reviewed by several doctors, and these showed that Lisa's hip had been fully restored and the cancer was gone.

Heres another coincident that happened here in Australian.
Catherine Evans miracle was the 2nd attributed to Mary Mackillop an Nun who worked with the poor in Australia years ago. It went through a stringent process and was declared the 2nd Miracle which paved the way for Sister Mary Mackillop to become a saint. The doctors involved could not explain how or why the cancer had disappeared. It happened soon after her church and town prayed for her.
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/sp...ckillopsmiracles/story-fn6rlm9d-1225939641699
http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-new...-miracle-survivor-opens-up-20100111-m2j8.html

 

[Loudmouth]

A cancer patient undergoing treatment survived the cancer? What makes this a miracle exactly?

Not to mention the God still has it out for amputees. Still refuses to heal even a single one.

 

[[serious]]

So you dont believe in miracles as well.

I don't think miracles should be the first attempt at an explanation. People with cancer sometimes get better with treatment, that's why we treat them. Even when we do nothings, sometimes they get better. Having a dream about getting better before getting better isn't really impressive to me.

If you read it he hadn't received the treatment as yet. The cancer had spread throughout his body. His friends prayed for him before he started the radiation treatment. He had a dream he would be healed and the next day he went to a miracle service and said he felt all his pain go. When he went to the doctors the test showed that new bone had grown where the lesions were and he was healed of his cancer. Don't you think it strange that after people had prayed for him and he went to a miracle meeting that he was soon healed. Or is that just another coincident. The thing with this case is there is medical records to back it up.

I don't find it strange at all that people pray for someone with cancer, that people with cancer would have dreams about getting better, or that people with cancer go into remission. The only thing that doesn't seem common to me is that people would go to a "miracle service" but that wouldn't make the rest less expected.

Did you read the other ones. Most were healed after prayer. Heres another coincident.
Lisa Larios

Lisa was diagnosed with cancer of the hip when she was 12, and was unable to walk unaided. Her family decided chemotherapy was too traumatic and called it off after one dose. The family were Catholic, though not very religious, and a family friend invited the family to a christian healing meeting conducted by 'healing evangelist' Kathryn Kuhlman. The friend fasted and prayed for a week beforehand.
During the service, Lisa felt a warm feeling in her stomach, and Kathryn Kuhlman said someone in her section of the auditorium was being healed from cancer and should stand up. Lisa, against her mother's wishes, stood up and was able to walk without pain for the first time since the problem had appeared. Lisa was X-rayed several times after that, and it became clear that something strange had indeed occurred. Further X-rays (reproduced in the book) were taken and reviewed by several doctors, and these showed that Lisa's hip had been fully restored and the cancer was gone.

Cancer sometimes goes into remission. Again, not surprising. We would need some sort of statistical analysis of "miracle services" improving outcomes.

Heres another coincident that happened here in Australian.
Catherine Evans miracle was the 2nd attributed to Mary Mackillop an Nun who worked with the poor in Australia years ago. It went through a stringent process and was declared the 2nd Miracle which paved the way for Sister Mary Mackillop to become a saint. The doctors involved could not explain how or why the cancer had disappeared. It happened soon after her church and town prayed for her.
No Cookies | Herald Sun
Mother Mary's miracle survivor opens up

Same thing, sometimes cancer goes into remission.

 

[quatona]

I may have missed it, but...after more than 700 posts in this thread, have we yet gotten a proper definition of "miracle" from those who operate with this term?

 

[AV1611VET]

I may have missed it, but...after more than 700 posts in this thread, have we yet gotten a proper definition of "miracle" from those who operate with this term?

A miracle is a violation/suspension of the laws of nature.

Usually done in a confined area, with said laws still in operation outside of the area itself.

Example:

Deuteronomy 29:5 And I have led you forty years in the wilderness: your clothes are not waxen old upon you, and thy shoe is not waxen old upon thy foot.

Everyone elses' clothes were subject to entropy.

The burning bush, the fiery furnace, Daniel in the Lion's den, Jonah in the whale's belly, Jesus walking on water, the sky going dark during the Crucifixion, the Rapture; even a global flood, all point to miracles orchestrated by a Source outside of nature.

 

[quatona]

A miracle is a violation/suspension of the laws of nature.

Usually done in a confined area, with said laws still in operation outside of the area itself.

Thanks for a straightforward answer that makes sense.

I have two additional questions.
The first one is not directed towards you: Do Heissonear, stevevw and KWCrazy (the most vocal proponents of "miracles" in this thread agree with you in this definitions?

The second one is directed specifically towards you:
Is "Embedded Age" a "law of nature" or rather a violation thereof?

 

[Armoured]

Is "Embedded Age" a "law of nature" or rather a violation thereof?

And what about flying clams?

 

[AV1611VET]

Thanks for a straightforward answer that makes sense.

You're welcome!

Is "Embedded Age" a "law of nature" or rather a violation thereof?

Neither, actually!

When God embedded age into His creation, there was nothing to violate, as embedded age [objects] came into existence both ex nihilo and ex materia.

I suppose you could say it was a violation of the ageing process, but then, nothing had ever aged before.

That's a tough question!

 

[[serious]]

You're welcome!

Neither, actually!

When God embedded age into His creation, there was nothing to violate, as embedded age [objects] came into existence both ex nihilo and ex materia.

I suppose you could say it was a violation of the ageing process, but then, nothing had ever aged before.

That's a tough question!

One follow up, how would we determine when a miracle has occurred? How do we rule out natural explanations or human trickery?

 

[AV1611VET]

And what about flying clams?

Yes, that's another false accusation; based on you Arab-phoning the verb in my explanation to a gerund in your false rendering of what I said.

 

[Armoured]

Yes, that's another false accusation; based on you Arab-phoning the verb in my explanation to a gerund in your false rendering of what I said.

How is asking a question an accusation?

 

[AV1611VET]

One follow up, how would we determine when a miracle has occurred? How do we rule out natural explanations or human trickery?

Good questions!

Desipte the fact that a prayer vigil was being held for Peter, who was being held by four quaternions of soldiers, note this doosey of an initial reaction by some:

Acts 12:12 And when he had considered the thing, he came to the house of Mary the mother of John, whose surname was Mark; where many were gathered together praying.
Acts 12:13 And as Peter knocked at the door of the gate, a damsel came to hearken, named Rhoda.
Acts 12:14 And when she knew Peter's voice, she opened not the gate for gladness, but ran in, and told how Peter stood before the gate.
Acts 12:15 And they said unto her, Thou art mad. But she constantly affirmed that it was even so. Then said they, It is his angel.
Acts 12:16 But Peter continued knocking: and when they had opened the door, and saw him, they were astonished.