How are we to explain these "miracles?"

[Heissonear]

No, I definitely should not answer these, because I am not the one making any claim concerning the explanation. If this indeed happened, I am entirely clueless how it could possibly be explained (which, by the way, is often also the case when I see illusionists at work). So I asked for your help, in your role as the self-professed elected expert with special abilities.
I have been asking for your epistemology regarding unusual/unexplained/amazing events. You are the self-professed expert with a self-professed exclusive status in these matters, while I have no idea how to do that.
I asked you.
So it´s not me who should answer the question. I was the one to ask it from an expert, after all.
Also, I wasn´t asking about one specific event. I asked for the method by which you, the elected expert, tell unusual, amazing natural events (und you do have refused to acknowledge such as miracles before) from miracles.

So, to make it easier for you:
We have the story of the miracle of the 15 guys who were late to a rehearsal (from which this thread started). Was that a miracle? How do you, as the elected expert on the matter, tell?

Besides, it´s not my job to explain extraordinary events that a stranger on the internet claims have happened without being willing to provide data. If you cannot or don´t want to provide anything that lends your story more credence than that of a troll, a charlatan, a liar or loony, well, then that´s bad luck for you: You expect a gullibility from me that you certainly wouldn´t recommend to your children.

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Quatona, are you still looking for mere mental knowledge or do you want to find Him, and encounter His Power, even Power from on High openly demonstrated before you?

It is up to you. He is watching you every moment, seeing what is your hearts desire. Again, do you want to find Him? Do you want to know if He is? How much do you want to know if He is?

As far as me and the Miracle I presented, I already found Him, in truth. He knows.

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[bhsmte]

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You are trying to enter the Kingdom of God through your head rather than being Born Again through His Spirit.

And you are trying to determine who God is and state how He is without even meeting Him, even experiencing His Power from on High. For someone who only knows of natural, earthly power and processes, what do they know about Him on High?

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Well, lets just say, I can't play enough psychological games with myself to convince myself any of this stuff is true.

Beyond that, call it what you will.

 

[quatona]

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Quatona, are you still looking for mere mental knowledge or do you want to find Him, and encounter His Power, even Power from on High openly demonstrated before you?

It is up to you. He is watching you every moment, seeing what is your hearts desire. Again, do you want to find Him? Do you want to know if He is? How much do you want to know if He is?

As far as me and the Miracle I presented, I already found Him, in truth. He knows.

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You tend to have a very wordy way of saying "I can´t answer your question".

 

[Ruthie24]

How are we to explain miracles?

The truth is we can't. They don't fit in with any human understanding of how we try to explain reality. That's why they are called miracles. It's easy for people to explain away miracles when they are not comfortable with the fact that they may be facing a paradigm shift in their reality. This is called divine intervention and no matter how you slice it, humanity can't pigeonhole every miracle and explain it away to fit into their pre defined version of reality. No one wants to trade in a pair of oh so comfortable old shoes and break in a pair of new ones because it means confronting a reality they are not ready to face. Miracles force man to look at his miniscule humble existence and say, "Dam* I guess I really don't have all the answers."

 

[quatona]

How are we to explain miracles?

The truth is we can't. They don't fit in with any human understanding of how we try to explain reality. That's why they are called miracles. It's easy for people to explain away miracles when they are not comfortable with the fact that they may be facing a paradigm shift in their reality. This is called divine intervention and no matter how you slice it, humanity can't pigeonhole every miracle and explain it away to fit into their pre defined version of reality. No one wants to trade in a pair of oh so comfortable old shoes and break in a pair of new ones because it means confronting a reality they are not ready to face. Miracles force man to look at his miniscule humble existence and say, "Dam* I guess I really don't have all the answers."

It seems to me that before we ask "How are we to explain miracles?" we would have to have an answer to "How are we to identify a miracle?"
Certainly, "I don´t have an explanation readily available" isn´t a sufficient criterium - not even for those who believe in miracles.

 

[AV1611VET]

It seems to me that before we ask "How are we to explain miracles?" we would have to have an answer to "How are we to identify a miracle?"
Certainly, "I don´t have an explanation readily available" isn´t a sufficient criterium - not even for those who believe in miracles.

And yet I'll bet if creationism were to go on trial against evolution, scientists would take the stand and ... in my opinion ... give definitions of "miracle" and "kind" that would make a theologian salivate.

Scientists can walk around and "act dumb" -- but let another Scopes trial come to town, and they'll be the first ones on the stand talking "miracles" and "kinds" and "dispensationalism" and "uniformitarianism" and "diabolical plagiarism" and "diabolical mimicry" and "ontological reduction" and "ontological subordination" and "creatio ex nihilo" and "creatio ex materia" and "..."

On the Internet ... hey ... there are some 33,000 different sects of Christianity that confuses them.

But put these same guys on the witness stand (against the Bible) and watch those 33,000 become crystal clear evidence as to how we say the devil operates.

 

[bhsmte]

How are we to explain miracles?

The truth is we can't. They don't fit in with any human understanding of how we try to explain reality. That's why they are called miracles. It's easy for people to explain away miracles when they are not comfortable with the fact that they may be facing a paradigm shift in their reality. This is called divine intervention and no matter how you slice it, humanity can't pigeonhole every miracle and explain it away to fit into their pre defined version of reality. No one wants to trade in a pair of oh so comfortable old shoes and break in a pair of new ones because it means confronting a reality they are not ready to face. Miracles force man to look at his miniscule humble existence and say, "Dam* I guess I really don't have all the answers."

Whether one's shoes are comfortable enough, all depends what they can convince themselves of. Or, I should add, what one needs to convince themselves of.

 

[quatona]

And yet I'll bet if creationism were to go on trial against evolution, scientists would take the stand and ... in my opinion ... give definitions of "miracle" and "kind" that would make a theologian salivate.

Well, we aren´t talking about creationism, evolution theory or scientists here, for a change.

Scientists can walk around and "act dumb" -- but let another Scopes trial come to town, and they'll be the first ones on the stand talking "miracles" and "kinds" and "dispensationalism" and "uniformitarianism" and "diabolical plagiarism" and "diabolical mimicry" and "ontological reduction" and "ontological subordination" and "creatio ex nihilo" and "creatio ex materia" and "..."

Just like Heiss, you seem to talk a lot when you don´t want to or can´t address a question.

Impressive quantity of posts you got there, btw.

 

[AV1611VET]

Just like Heiss, you seem to talk a lot when you don´t want to or can´t address a question.

Do you have a specific question you'd like me to address?

 

[quatona]

Do you have a specific question you'd like me to address?

Yes, the one I asked in the very post you responded to.

 

[AV1611VET]

Yes, the one I asked in the very post you responded to.

It's a toughy, isn't it?

 

[quatona]

It's a toughy, isn't it?

To tell from the reactions of those who notoriously operate with the category "miracle": yes, apparently.
So you are not alone.

 

[stevevw]

Well, lets just say, I can't play enough psychological games with myself to convince myself any of this stuff is true.

Beyond that, call it what you will.

But you aren't even open to it in the first place because you have already decided that it doesn't happen and is not true. So there is no chance you would recognize or admit if one happened anyway.

 

[stevevw]

Scientist are discovering how miracles work and they dont even realize it. They are now looking into the quantum world going right back to the higgs boson. This is where particles act differently and are associated with coming into reality. It seems the quantum particles can be in two forms at the same time, they can affect each other even though they are a long distance apart and they can disappear or take on another form as soon as you look at them. Isn't this how God works. If he is the creator of this world then surely he can have an effect on it. Maybe his power and belief itself has some way of effecting the particles. Maybe the miracles that are performed in the bible and how Jesus walked through walls and all that was just God materializing and materializing particles. If this world is seems magical maybe that indicates the qualities of God and there is more than what the eye can see.

 

[bhsmte]

But you aren't even open to it in the first place because you have already decided that it doesn't happen and is not true. So there is no chance you would recognize or admit if one happened anyway.

I am open to anything that I can verify as true, so you are wrong.

 

[stevevw]

I am open to anything that I can verify as true, so you are wrong.

I just got that impression from your last answer in the other post where you were talking about playing psychological games with your self. You already have decided that anything to do with miracles or the supernatural is all in the head and playing games. So if you already have this attitude then you are not really open to all possibilities.

 

[quatona]

I just got that impression from your last answer in the other post where you were talking about playing psychological games with your self. You already have decided that anything to do with miracles or the supernatural is all in the head and playing games. So if you already have this attitude then you are not really open to all possibilities.

It´s hard to let this openness manifest when you guys can´t even come up with a working epistemology of the supernatural, in the first place.
So, how about first things first:
How are we to determine if an unusual/unexplained/amazing event is a miracle or not?

 

[Kylie]

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As Steve has responded, there are Miracles documented. But there are Miracles not documented.

Irrelevant. Telling me there is documentation is not what I asked for, is it? I asked you to SHOW ME documentation that I can check independently. Have you done this? No!

Either way those with doubt in heart - about God at times demonstrating Ruling over the natural - what will remove their doubts? Do you think physical facts would resolve your wonder if there is Power on High, and He still works miracles among us? I say no. What occurs from on High is spontaneous - and it is the firsthand witnessing of this Power Above the natural that it would take to remove your doubts.

You don't seem to be paying attention to what I am saying at all.

I am saying that if you give me some details about this child with the deformed arm that I can check and see that his deformed arm became repaired, I will accept it. What is his name? Which hospital was he born in? You are giving me no checkable details.

 

[Kylie]

Being Australian you should be familiar with the story of Kathleen Evans. She had stage 4 terminal lung cancer which had spread to her brain and had weeks to live. Her church prayed for her and she was cured. The cancer which was at the stage of spreading through her body with her lungs completely cancerous disappears. Not a slight small cancer but a large spread through her body completely gone within weeks of her and the churches prayers. This wasn't one of those cases where there may have been a misdiagnosis or it was a small disease that may have just got better with some healthy living. The doctors had no explanation and were baffled as to how this could have happened. This was the 2nd miracle attributed to Mary MacKillop's was accepted by the Vatican to make Mary a saint.
Australian Story :: Mary And Me

And how exactly was a non-miraculous explanation discounted? Doctors often say that a person is beyond hope, yet they pull through despite the odds.

 

[Kylie]

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Then you should answer these:

1. How did a small severely deformed arm lengthen over twice its size and become normal over the course of time of about eight seconds?

2. What HAD TO occur, biologically and physically to the arm?

3. Were cells and other biological materials Created?

What is yours and others explanation to these specifics?

Can you answer these?

1. How did my daughter float into the air last night?

2. What had to happen, biologically and physically to enable her to float like that?

3. Were cells and other biological materials created?

(Do you see that without evidence a claim is meaningless?)