Honest questions about EO

[Light of the East]

I absolutely agree that fear of judgement is the "lowest kind of motivator" because, thank God, "perfect love casts out all fear." Do you feel like western Christianity has emphasized that motivation too much? If so why do you feel like we have done this? Feel free to answer with as much vehemence as you think is appropriate

While I am not quite yet Orthodox, I come from a PCA Calvinist background, so I feel I might have a fair understanding of where you are coming from.

If you do a study of the development of the Christian faith, Western Christianity, although they will probably deny it, was shaped and influenced by the culture of the Roman Empire. That culture was a culture which was obsessed with THE LAW. Jurisprudence meant everything to the Roman citizen. It was the means by which the empire ran smoothly, and the Roman citizen was better than the barbarous pagan tribes that surrounded them. This is why the West has done this - the intrusion of culture into the Western Church, along with politics which melded the Church and the empire together, much to the detriment of the Church.

As you come to understand Orthodoxy better, you will see the difference in how we approach God, how we understand mankind, and especially how we view soteriology and eschatology. These things are as different between East and West as day is from night, and these differences are the reason I am leaving my association with the Roman West through the BCC and converting to Orthodoxy.

In the West (Catholic and Protestant) God is the ever-offended Judge, the "Mighty Smiter" (as Brad Jersek puts it) who is ever in need of having His anger assuaged and the offenses against Him paid for. The approach of the West is that of the law - broken law deserves punishment. This is not the view of the East, which is medicinal in nature. God is loving Father who as the Great Physician, heals His sick children. He is love, not anger. There is no such thing as Dant'es sordid description of hell where God "pours out the fury of His wrath" in horrendous torments upon those who love sin more than Him. The torments of the next life are self-induced. As Father Matt has said, salvation is given TO ALL (Romans 5:12-19). Death and the devil are defeated. All go to be with Christ/God, but those who have not repented in this life and who love wickedness will find His presence torment, while those who have pursued Him in this life will find Him delight.

"Christ, the lover of mankind." When I first heard that phrase in an Orthodox Church, my heart just melted. Fear of being smacked around by God is a demeaning reason for eschewing sin. I want to love Him with all my heart, not be afraid He is gonna wallop me one! For years I sat under a parade of preachers, first in Bob Jones Fundamentalism, then in PCA Calvinism, who threatened me with God. Now I am learning the truth of what John said - "God is love."

Orthodoxy gives that love to me. I wish you well on your investigation and hope I may be of some help to you as you seek!

God bless!

 

[JosephJurg]

Thank you for your response. I think what you are saying is that because of culture, the Western church has interpreted the gospel and God's character differently. While you didn't mention interpretation of scripture directly, I am assuming that you meant this has skewed their view of scripture. I would agree that God is not only an angry God; He is love. Yet, it seems like you are denying an aspect of God that is very clear in scripture. I don't think it is honest to say that "culture" spawned the view of God as a judge when it is seen throughout the whole Bible.

I read Numbers 14 today, where the Israelites refused to enter the promised land because they were afraid, and I think it is a clear example of God being both a wrathful judge and a merciful physician. I won't post the whole passage, but verses 17-19 share a description of God's character that summarizes why He chose to listen to Moses and forgive the Israelites, but still punished them and killed every one of them in the desert except the ones He had chosen. I can't read this passage without seeing God's mercy, forgiveness, and favor towards those who believe Him and His wrath, punishment, and hatred towards those who don't believe Him.

If you would be willing to take some time to read this chapter, I would be very interested to know how you would view the character of God being revealed here. Thanks again.

 

[ArmyMatt]

it’s because wrath and judgment ARE love in the face of unrepentant sinners.

 

[Light of the East]

The problem with the Western mindset is that whenever the word judge or judgment is seen in the scriptures, the Western mind automatically thinks of a court of law, breaking the law, and punishment.

I want you to try thinking of this in another way. When a doctor sees a sick man, he examines the man and makes a judgment based on the facts that he finds out. He judges what the man's condition is, and he judges what the proper medicine is that will heal the man. This is every bit as much judgment as a judge in a law Court listening to fax and making a judgment as to what should be done with the criminal.

As for the wrath of God, what father Matt said plus this. Father John Behr has a very nice series of presentation given at a conference in which he discussed to a great extent the early fathers and how they had to deal with this discrepancy in scripture early on. They quickly realized that the God who is love as expressed in the Incarnation was Far different from the God of Wrath of the Old Testament. Their answer was that instead of taking the Scriptures with a wooden literalism, the Scriptures were to be read in these areas as allegory, metaphor, or simply human understanding.

As for a human understanding, Brad Jersek tells a story to explain this. He talks about a time when as a little boy he was warned not to touch the stove because it was hot and would burn him. He went and touch the stove anyway, burned his hand, and ran to his bedroom afraid of his mother because he had disobeyed. Now was burning his hand his mother's wrath against him, or was it the natural consequence of disobedience? He was afraid of his mother and hid in the bedroom from her and could have thought mommy is angry at me this is mommy's wrath. It was just a consequence of his disobedience.

You see, you come from a school of thought that believes that the Holy Scriptures are God breathed, every single word came from the lips of God just as he intended. We don't do the scriptures that way. They are inspired, profitable for reproof and instruction, but what they are not is a word for word dictation from God.

 

[ArmyMatt]

They quickly realized that the God who is love as expressed in the Incarnation was Far different from the God of Wrath of the Old Testament.

this technically isn’t true. the God of the Incarnation IS the God of wrath in the OT. it was just the OT was an incomplete picture. the Incarnation clarifies how the God of love is the same God.

You see, you come from a school of thought that believes that the Holy Scriptures are God breathed, every single word came from the lips of God just as he intended. We don't do the scriptures that way. They are inspired, profitable for reproof and instruction, but what they are not is a word for word dictation from God.

we do see the Scriptures as something God intended. which means when He intends allegory or metaphor, that’s how we read it. just like when He intends a literal understanding or a liturgical one, or all of the above.

 

[Light of the East]

QUOTE="ArmyMatt, this technically isn’t true. the God of the Incarnation IS the God of wrath in the OT. it was just the OT was an incomplete picture. the Incarnation clarifies how the God of love is the same God.

Right. My wording is bad and imprecise.

we do see the Scriptures as something God intended. which means when He intends allegory or metaphor, that’s how we read it. just like when He intends a literal understanding or a liturgical one, or all of the above.

Again, this is the problem with third-party quotes. One tends to mess them up badly. I was trying to express how the Fathers handled what looked to be contradiction in the nature of God. I made a hash of it.

 

[ArmyMatt]

QUOTE="ArmyMatt, this technically isn’t true. the God of the Incarnation IS the God of wrath in the OT. it was just the OT was an incomplete picture. the Incarnation clarifies how the God of love is the same God.

Right. My wording is bad and imprecise.

we do see the Scriptures as something God intended. which means when He intends allegory or metaphor, that’s how we read it. just like when He intends a literal understanding or a liturgical one, or all of the above.

Again, this is the problem with third-party quotes. One tends to mess them up badly. I was trying to express how the Fathers handled what looked to be contradiction in the nature of God. I made a hash of it.

it happens, no worries.

 

[ArseniusTheSilent]

Great Vespers is a great introduction to Orthodox worship. I highly encourage you to try it! It will be sparsely attended compared to a Sunday Divine Liturgy. It will be over in under 1 hr and can give you a great first glimpse of our faith. It's also in the evening which offers up a beautiful visual and spiritual tone for how to first experience an Orthodox church.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

I have a question about the Orthodox Church. I find that on paper the orthodox way of understanding God is one I agree with most things but the actual practice that I see from watching services on YouTube are all designed from ancient times when most people had no Bible and could not read, and that is not true in the modern world. The services that I watched were mostly people singing everything, I think that’s brilliant for people who can’t read or had no Bible to read because we remember songs they stick in our heads . I wanted to go to a Orthodox Church but it’s an hour and a half drive away and when I called they said they had a dress code that you must adhere to, which according to James is not Biblical. So do you have to do all the rituals from the 300s or can you be Orthodox on paper but modern in practice? Or is being Orthodox a package deal you can’t have the paper with out the rituals?

 

[ArmyMatt]

I have a question about the Orthodox Church. I find that on paper the orthodox way of understanding God is one I agree with most things but the actual practice that I see from watching services on YouTube are all designed from ancient times when most people had no Bible and could not read, and that is not true in the modern world. The services that I watched were mostly people singing everything, I think that’s brilliant for people who can’t read or had no Bible to read because we remember songs they stick in our heads . I wanted to go to a Orthodox Church but it’s an hour and a half drive away and when I called they said they had a dress code that you must adhere to, which according to James is not Biblical. So do you have to do all the rituals from the 300s or can you be Orthodox on paper but modern in practice? Or is being Orthodox a package deal you can’t have the paper with out the rituals?

it’s a package deal. but I would add that the only biblical example of worship is what you see in an Orthodox Church.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

it’s a package deal. but I would add that the only biblical example of worship is what you see in an Orthodox Church.

Ok thank you, I guess I will keep walking with Yahweh and see where He leads me.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Ok thank you, I guess I will keep walking with Yahweh and see where He leads me.

well, what’s the issue if I may ask?

 

[Jeff Saunders]

well, what’s the issue if I may ask?

I find myself not understanding why tradition and rituals are the only way to have church. As I read scripture I don’t get the idea that that is the only way to have meaningful worship to the Father. I have been very fortunate to have been able to do missions in very poor and remote places and there is no way they can do what the Orthodox do sometimes they have no building at all , so the icons and fancy dress clothes ect are just not realistic but I saw a great love for God and a great deal of faith and practice, and that seems to be what I understand God wanting. Paul said he wanted to become all things to all people so as to win some. The idea that you have to do church like it was the year 300 just doesn’t make sense to me. I like the modern worship music it connects me to the Father in worship on a deep level, I am a jeans and T-shirt kind of guy, I enjoy Bible reading and studying and debating. My problem is that after much study I find that the western church has got much wrong about the Father and I find myself agreeing with the Orthodox position on many things but as far as the service that they do I can’t relate to the rituals and old way of doing things I find myself like someone with out a country I can’t agree with much of the western theology and I can’t agree with Orthodox rituals.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I find myself not understanding why tradition and rituals are the only way to have church. As I read scripture I don’t get the idea that that is the only way to have meaningful worship to the Father. I have been very fortunate to have been able to do missions in very poor and remote places and there is no way they can do what the Orthodox do sometimes they have no building at all , so the icons and fancy dress clothes ect are just not realistic but I saw a great love for God and a great deal of faith and practice, and that seems to be what I understand God wanting. Paul said he wanted to become all things to all people so as to win some. The idea that you have to do church like it was the year 300 just doesn’t make sense to me. I like the modern worship music it connects me to the Father in worship on a deep level, I am a jeans and T-shirt kind of guy, I enjoy Bible reading and studying and debating. My problem is that after much study I find that the western church has got much wrong about the Father and I find myself agreeing with the Orthodox position on many things but as far as the service that they do I can’t relate to the rituals and old way of doing things I find myself like someone with out a country I can’t agree with much of the western theology and I can’t agree with Orthodox rituals.

it’s because the ways aren’t old, they are eternal. the way the Orthodox have always worshipped is the way worship is done in heaven. the rituals will be done by us after Judgment Day, so we best get used to it now.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

it’s because the ways aren’t old, they are eternal. the way the Orthodox have always worshipped is the way worship is done in heaven. the rituals will be done by us after Judgment Day, so we best get used to it now.

Where did you get that idea from? From what I read from scripture I would never get that idea. Why do you think that that is how worship is done in heaven? Why would we read or sing scripture in heaven when the objects of scripture will be with us?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Where did you get that idea from? From what I read from scripture I would never get that idea. Why do you think that that is how worship is done in heaven? Why would we read or sing scripture in heaven when the objects of scripture will be with us?

I got that idea from Isaiah, Ezekiel, Hebrews, Revelation, basically every work in the Bible that shows the worship before God’s Throne is ritualistic and liturgical.

 

[prodromos]

I have been very fortunate to have been able to do missions in very poor and remote places and there is no way they can do what the Orthodox do sometimes they have no building at all , so the icons and fancy dress clothes ect are just not realistic but I saw a great love for God and a great deal of faith and practice, and that seems to be what I understand God wanting.

We do the best that we are capable of under the circumstances. The Orthodox Church has many missions in Africa which have had very humble beginnings. Services may have been held in the open, under a tent or in an old shed to begin with, then with donations from around the world they have managed to build Churches, schools and hospitals. Our earthly worship is a reflection of the heavenly worship. The Temple of the Old Testament and the robes they wore were a reflection of the heavely glory. Our Churches follow the same pattern with beauty expressed visually, audibly and through other senses.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Where did you get that idea from? From what I read from scripture I would never get that idea. Why do you think that that is how worship is done in heaven? Why would we read or sing scripture in heaven when the objects of scripture will be with us?

Why then do the Holy Angels and all the Hosts praise and worship The Almighty ceaselessly in Heaven? Revelation 7:9 Revelation 19:1 and Isaiah 6:3 ...Just as there is on earth as there is in Heaven! We know that we pattern these things here on earth as they are in Heaven....as it says in Exodus...praise, worship, incense, etc...we use all the senses for worship...touch, smell, see, taste, hear! That is Orthodox worship!

 

[ArmyMatt]

I would add that the pattern of worship that we do is, according to Hebrews, based on what Moses saw when he came before God on the mountain.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Paul said he wanted to become all things to all people so as to win some.

he also said to maintain the tradition, whether by word or epistle.