Honest questions about EO

[Jeff Saunders]

Why then do the Holy Angels and all the Hosts praise and worship The Almighty ceaselessly in Heaven? Revelation 7:9 Revelation 19:1 and Isaiah 6:3 ...Just as there is on earth as there is in Heaven! We know that we pattern these things here on earth as they are in Heaven....as it says in Exodus...praise, worship, incense, etc...we use all the senses for worship...touch, smell, see, taste, hear! That is Orthodox worship!

Yes there is praise and worship in heaven but I really dont think that scripture will be read in heaven ( or sung) scripture is to point us to Yahwey when in heaven we will not need scripture the Word of God will be there in front of us for all to see ( we will know even as we are known) . Also why would we need icons when those very people will be standing with us ? The reality is we have no way of knowing what our worship in heaven will look like , I wonder if there will be a whole new level of worship that will make what we do here seem petty . i do have a question for you when do you think the style or system of worship that is in place started because it is not what the original apostles did , i am sure they didnt put pictures of themselves up around the building they were in , that had to of come much later.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Also why would we need icons when those very people will be standing with us ?

we won’t then, because we will all be glorified with them. the icons will be them since we are after the Resurrection.

The reality is we have no way of knowing what our worship in heaven will look like , I wonder if there will be a whole new level of worship that will make what we do here seem petty .

there will be a whole deeper level, however, we do know what has been revealed to us by God. and that way of worship was also done by God Himself in the Incarnate Son.

i do have a question for you when do you think the style or system of worship that is in place started because it is not what the original apostles did , i am sure they didnt put pictures of themselves up around the building they were in , that had to of come much later.

no, but they did have images of angels. plus, 1st century synagogues have been found to be covered in images. and while iconography as we know it wasn’t right away, it also wasn’t much later. St Luke the evangelist made icons, a few of which we have or their copies.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Yes there is praise and worship in heaven but I really dont think that scripture will be read in heaven ( or sung) scripture is to point us to Yahwey when in heaven we will not need scripture the Word of God will be there in front of us for all to see ( we will know even as we are known) . Also why would we need icons when those very people will be standing with us ? The reality is we have no way of knowing what our worship in heaven will look like , I wonder if there will be a whole new level of worship that will make what we do here seem petty . i do have a question for you when do you think the style or system of worship that is in place started because it is not what the original apostles did , i am sure they didnt put pictures of themselves up around the building they were in , that had to of come much later.

It is said the first Icon was the Holy Shroud (now called the shroud of Turin) itself (you do know that was an Eastern Church relic?). Others say Luke painted an Icon of Mary. All of these things developed over time within the Church. Icons here now are called windows to Heaven. Will there be Icons in or needed in Heaven? Probably not since all of the Saints will be there with us. Orthodoxy is not the replacement of Judaism it is the continuation of it. There are concepts you do not understand regarding Orthodoxy. You should study regarding Pascha. Go to a Paschal midnight service. Understand it and the theology behind it. There are a cloud of witnesses with us as Paul said. We are there NOW.

 

[ArmyMatt]

It is said the first Icon was the Holy Shroud (now called the shroud of Turin) itself (you do know that was an Eastern Church relic?). Others say Luke painted an Icon of Mary. All of these things developed over time within the Church. Icons here now are called windows to Heaven. Will there be Icons in or needed in Heaven? Probably not since all of the Saints will be there with us. Orthodoxy is not the replacement of Judaism it is the continuation of it. There are concepts you do not understand regarding Orthodoxy. You should study regarding Pascha. Go to a Paschal midnight service. Understand it and the theology behind it. There are a cloud of witnesses with us as Paul said. We are there NOW.

there’s also the Holy Napkin and the image from St Veronica.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

we won’t then, because we will all be glorified with them. the icons will be them since we are after the Resurrection.


there will be a whole deeper level, however, we do know what has been revealed to us by God. and that way of worship was also done by God Himself in the Incarnate Son.


no, but they did have images of angels. plus, 1st century synagogues have been found to be covered in images. and while iconography as we know it wasn’t right away, it also wasn’t much later. St Luke the evangelist made icons, a few of which we have or their copies.

I was listening to a Orthodox priest today and he was talking about the very early use of icons much like what you just talked about. Thanks for the answer.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

It is said the first Icon was the Holy Shroud (now called the shroud of Turin) itself (you do know that was an Eastern Church relic?). Others say Luke painted an Icon of Mary. All of these things developed over time within the Church. Icons here now are called windows to Heaven. Will there be Icons in or needed in Heaven? Probably not since all of the Saints will be there with us. Orthodoxy is not the replacement of Judaism it is the continuation of it. There are concepts you do not understand regarding Orthodoxy. You should study regarding Pascha. Go to a Paschal midnight service. Understand it and the theology behind it. There are a cloud of witnesses with us as Paul said. We are there NOW.

I wish I could go to a service but there are no churches near me , and I still have trouble with the whole getting dressed up God looks at the heart man looks at the outward appearance. So for now I do listen to the services on the internet. But the more I study with the Orthodox priests the more I am drawn to their understanding of Yahweh and I feel they get Jesus better than most . Plus I believe in Apokatastasis and I find more of the old saint’s had that in their writing. But to be honest I do have trouble with the liturgical way of having church service, that maybe just something that would take time for me to appreciate. I am a Calvary Chapel kind of guy the praise and worship style that they do really touches deep and brings me to the very feet of Jesus. But in some ways it doesn’t matter for there are no Orthodox churches for me to go to anyway.

 

[prodromos]

and I still have trouble with the whole getting dressed up God looks at the heart man looks at the outward appearance

Dress codes would only be about modesty, ie. not wearing tight and revealing clothes so as not to potentially cause others to sin. I'm sure the woman doing prostrations in front of me felt very comfortable in her choice of clothing, but the fact that she was wearing a g-string under her long skirt made it very distracting for the man behind her who already struggled with temptations. A gym junkie wearing a muscle shirt might cause similar issues for women in the congregation.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I was listening to a Orthodox priest today and he was talking about the very early use of icons much like what you just talked about. Thanks for the answer.

no problem

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I wish I could go to a service but there are no churches near me , and I still have trouble with the whole getting dressed up God looks at the heart man looks at the outward appearance. So for now I do listen to the services on the internet. But the more I study with the Orthodox priests the more I am drawn to their understanding of Yahweh and I feel they get Jesus better than most . Plus I believe in Apokatastasis and I find more of the old saint’s had that in their writing. But to be honest I do have trouble with the liturgical way of having church service, that maybe just something that would take time for me to appreciate. I am a Calvary Chapel kind of guy the praise and worship style that they do really touches deep and brings me to the very feet of Jesus. But in some ways it doesn’t matter for there are no Orthodox churches for me to go to anyway.

I don't know where you are in TN, but there are Churches across the State. Here is a list of OCA and Antiochian parishes: https://www.oca.org/parishes/state/TN and Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese I am sure there are others too, Greek, etc. As far as clothes, don't you feel like you want to feel you are the best dressed you can be when you are in the presence of the King of the Universe, just as a sign of respect. However, I have been to many different services, especially with Russian and Georgian immigrants, that just wear a t shirt and jeans. It is up to you.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

I don't know where you are in TN, but there are Churches across the State. Here is a list of OCA and Antiochian parishes: https://www.oca.org/parishes/state/TN and Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese I am sure there are others too, Greek, etc. As far as clothes, don't you feel like you want to feel you are the best dressed you can be when you are in the presence of the King of the Universe, just as a sign of respect. However, I have been to many different services, especially with Russian and Georgian immigrants, that just wear a t shirt and jeans. It is up to you.

As far as being in my best dress in the presence of the King , I see myself as always in the presence of the King He resides in me alway so I don’t feel as if my corporate worship is any different than my Sunday worship, other than being modest I feel that Yahweh doesn’t care what we have on that’s what James was talking about when he said if a person comes into your meeting with shabby clothes and you say sit over there and a person having fine clothes comes in and you elevate them that is sin.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

that’s what James was talking about when he said if a person comes into your meeting with shabby clothes and you say sit over there and a person having fine clothes comes in and you elevate them that is sin.

Yeah that won't happen in an Orthodox church...now people looking funny at you may as in most public gatherings
However Matthew 22:1-14 does come to mind..

 

[notRusskiyMir]

This is a year since a post was made, but ...

Vespers introduces the Sunday following it. So, on a Saturday afternoon/early evening that short service will state what Sunday's service will entail.

Dress code: Dress with respect is how I would say it. That doesn't mean a suit is required. I see in videos that shirtsleeves (a collared shirt as the outer garment for a man) and long pants is acceptable in Greece and in eastern Europe. No cutoffs nor flip flop footwear. Note that some "orthodox" get carried away, but that is not the norm.

Old Testament: Of course there are references throughout a typical Liturgy pulling in OT imagery and phrases. The iconography pulls in the OT as well. I cannot state it correctly, but Orthodoxy is the extension of the OT.

I will drop this link in. It is a video of Sam Shamoun who is a Church of the East believer (non-EO) that gives a masterful demonstration of the Trinity in the OT, which is fully EO. He does this in a discussion with "Yossi the Jew". The first 14 minutes or so he is challenging Yossi as to why he would appear on a Muslim podcast bashing Christianity. You can skip that, but it is instructive. Note: I am not fully endorsing Sam in all respects (he had a bad divorce, etc.), but this video is wonderful. If you have 70 minutes - very nice.

 

[notRusskiyMir]

there’s also the Holy Napkin and the image from St Veronica.

The Sudarium of Oviedo is what you are referring to. It has the same distinctive weave as the Shroud of Turin. There is no image on the cloth, just blood stains and holes where a fibula (like a safety pin) punctured it. The sudarium is part of a set - with the Shroud - that Joseph of Arimathea bought as grave goods for his burial. The cloth was to soak up the decease's blood, important to the Jews.

The image (Veil) of Veronica is likely a corruption/portmanteau of two words, meaning true image. It likely didn't exist as the story tells. The Shroud was displayed each Friday in a certain church in Constantinople, folded so that the face was shown. It may derived from this.