Honest questions about EO

[JosephJurg]

Hello my name is Joseph Jurgensmeier and this is my first post on this forum. I have grown up in a non-denominational church that teaches Calvinism and a belief in the Bible as God’s authoritative guidebook for our lives and the church. I have been reading some things by EO Christians and I have been very intrigued by your beliefs. I have a few questions that I haven’t been able to answer just reading articles on the web and I wanted to check my understanding of EO theology.

First, I want to visit my local Orthodox church. Is it acceptable to just walk in or is there a process you have to go through before joining a service? Also, they have their Sunday service at the same time as my church and their Wednesday morning service is during my work. However, they advertise a Saturday “Great Vespers”. What is that and would it be a good introduction to EO?

Second, I am trying to understand your view of salvation. As I understand it, Humanity was separated from God at the fall, but God sent Christ to teach, live a perfect life, sacrifice his life for our sins, and rise again. Then, I think it would be correct to say that Christ’s death paid the penalty of sin for anyone who follows him and therefore he removed humanity’s negative relationship with God. Then his resurrection created the possibility for humanity to join in new life and enter a positive relationship with God. Thus He offered a healed relationship to anyone who would accept it. However, he does not influence anyone’s decision to accept that relationship except maybe in very special cases (Paul lol). Does all of that sound right and have the correct emphasis of ideas?

This is where my understanding becomes hazy. I don’t understand what your view is on people accepting Christ. In the Orthodox view, is there an internal “moment” of salvation (moment of accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior in my church’s view) that once it occurs you have eternal life if you die? Also, what motivates humanity to accept God’s gift of relationship if they are really like what Paul describes in Romans 3? A point of confusion for me is that he says in verse 11 that, “there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God.” (NIV) I believe I partially understand the view that salvation is a process and God is the Judge who determines salvation no matter what, I am just asking when and how that process starts in someone’s life.

Thirdly, I have a related question about baptism and the forgiveness of sins that is effected by it. I have believed that God commands all Christians to be baptized as an outward symbol and confession of the internal regeneration and cleansing that occurred when they accepted Jesus. I think EO Christians believe that this internal change doesn’t take place until baptism. What would happen then if a convert had every intention of being baptized, but they died before they could be baptized? Would that balance God’s scales against them since his sins weren’t forgiven? Or would God accept his intention as sufficient? Or am I thinking about it all wrong?

I have more questions, but I will leave it at that for now. I appreciate any help in understanding the truth.

 

[ArmyMatt]

First, I want to visit my local Orthodox church. Is it acceptable to just walk in or is there a process you have to go through before joining a service? Also, they have their Sunday service at the same time as my church and their Wednesday morning service is during my work. However, they advertise a Saturday “Great Vespers”. What is that and would it be a good introduction to EO?

you can just show up.

Second, I am trying to understand your view of salvation. As I understand it, Humanity was separated from God at the fall, but God sent Christ to teach, live a perfect life, sacrifice his life for our sins, and rise again. Then, I think it would be correct to say that Christ’s death paid the penalty of sin for anyone who follows him and therefore he removed humanity’s negative relationship with God. Then his resurrection created the possibility for humanity to join in new life and enter a positive relationship with God. Thus He offered a healed relationship to anyone who would accept it. However, he does not influence anyone’s decision to accept that relationship except maybe in very special cases (Paul lol). Does all of that sound right and have the correct emphasis of ideas?

I think we would say He heals everyone, whether they like it or not.

This is where my understanding becomes hazy. I don’t understand what your view is on people accepting Christ. In the Orthodox view, is there an internal “moment” of salvation (moment of accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior in my church’s view) that once it occurs you have eternal life if you die? Also, what motivates humanity to accept God’s gift of relationship if they are really like what Paul describes in Romans 3? A point of confusion for me is that he says in verse 11 that, “there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God.” (NIV) I believe I partially understand the view that salvation is a process and God is the Judge who determines salvation no matter what, I am just asking when and how that process starts in someone’s life.

yes, every moment we are either accepting Christ or rejecting Him. we seek God because He seeks us first.

Thirdly, I have a related question about baptism and the forgiveness of sins that is effected by it. I have believed that God commands all Christians to be baptized as an outward symbol and confession of the internal regeneration and cleansing that occurred when they accepted Jesus. I think EO Christians believe that this internal change doesn’t take place until baptism. What would happen then if a convert had every intention of being baptized, but they died before they could be baptized? Would that balance God’s scales against them since his sins weren’t forgiven? Or would God accept his intention as sufficient? Or am I thinking about it all wrong?

we don’t know what happens, so we trust in God’s mercy and love

 

[JosephJurg]

Thank you for your straightforward reply ArmyMatt.

you can just show up.

That's pretty much what I assumed, but I just wanted to make sure. And what is Vespers?

I think we would say He heals everyone, whether they like it or not.

Ok so I think what you are saying is that the ability of humanity to have faith in God was healed by Jesus's resurrection. And since that moment anyone has the ability to accept Jesus at any time and begin that process of salvation. Is that correct? If so, did non-Jews have any ability to seek God before Christ's work? And what part of humanity was wounded in the fall so that it had to be healed?

yes, every moment we are either accepting Christ or rejecting Him. we seek God because He seeks us first.

That makes sense, but are you making that statement of regenerated Christians or humanity in general or both? Would you say that a Christian is rejecting Christ when they sin? If so, what would be the difference from God's point of view between a Christian rejecting Christ when they sin as opposed to an unbeliever rejecting Christ when they sin?

Again, thank you.

 

[ArmyMatt]

That's pretty much what I assumed, but I just wanted to make sure. And what is Vespers?

the evening service

Ok so I think what you are saying is that the ability of humanity to have faith in God was healed by Jesus's resurrection. And since that moment anyone has the ability to accept Jesus at any time and begin that process of salvation. Is that correct? If so, did non-Jews have any ability to seek God before Christ's work? And what part of humanity was wounded in the fall so that it had to be healed?

yes and yes and human nature

That makes sense, but are you making that statement of regenerated Christians or humanity in general or both? Would you say that a Christian is rejecting Christ when they sin? If so, what would be the difference from God's point of view between a Christian rejecting Christ when they sin as opposed to an unbeliever rejecting Christ when they sin?

all of humanity. and the difference is Christians know better, so are judged harsher.

 

[JosephJurg]

Ok I will visit their evening service then. Thank you!

yes and yes and human nature

Any specific aspects of human nature? Their reason, their desire for God, etc.?

Christians know better, so are judged harsher.

I don't think I understand. I would agree that those who never hear the gospel are judged less harshly. But, how could Paul say in Romans 8, "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus" if Christians are judged more harshly? As I understand it, Paul's reason for saying that there is no condemnation is that we in our true regenerate selves do not sin anymore. Instead, it is sin living in us that sins, as he outlines in Romans 7. Again, I am just interested in what you would believe about this verse. I am not trying to trip you up

 

[ArmyMatt]

Any specific aspects of human nature? Their reason, their desire for God, etc.?

all of it.

I don't think I understand. I would agree that those who never hear the gospel are judged less harshly. But, how could Paul say in Romans 8, "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus" if Christians are judged more harshly? As I understand it, Paul's reason for saying that there is no condemnation is that we in our true regenerate selves do not sin anymore. Instead, it is sin living in us that sins, as he outlines in Romans 7. Again, I am just interested in what you would believe about this verse. I am not trying to trip you up

the Bible also says that he who knows his Master’s will and doesn’t do it receives a harsher beating than he who doesn’t know.

 

[JosephJurg]

all of it.

I guess what I was trying to get at that is I don't know what you mean by human nature in this sense. I would define human nature as "that which makes us human". In this sense it's a very general term. Jesus had a perfect human nature and I had a sinful, broken one until I was regenerated by the Spirit yet I still carry my sinful human nature with me. To what extent was human nature healed without the whole world being given the Holy Spirit? What is the difference in the human nature of a Christian and an unbeliever?

the Bible also says that he who knows his Master’s will and doesn’t do it receives a harsher beating than he who doesn’t know.

Yes I was referring to that verse when I said those who never hear the gospel will be punished less severely though I can see how you could apply it in your way. How do you see Romans 8:1 in light of that then? Also how do you see these verses later in Romans 8.

Romans 8:32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?...neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The way I would read these verses is that God doesn't condemn his children because Christ is interceding for us because he loves us and nothing in creation, including my own decisions, can separate me from his love. So it follows that no one, not even God, condemns me. That is my understanding. What would you say to that view, and aside from that, what would an EO appreciate in these verses?

 

[ArmyMatt]

I guess what I was trying to get at that is I don't know what you mean by human nature in this sense. I would define human nature as "that which makes us human". In this sense it's a very general term. Jesus had a perfect human nature and I had a sinful, broken one until I was regenerated by the Spirit yet I still carry my sinful human nature with me. To what extent was human nature healed without the whole world being given the Holy Spirit? What is the difference in the human nature of a Christian and an unbeliever?

human nature is human nature be it unfallen (Adam before the Tree), fallen (us), or deified (Christ). all of creation was healed in the Incarnation, but the fullness of that healing will be revealed when Christ returns.

The way I would read these verses is that God doesn't condemn his children because Christ is interceding for us because he loves us and nothing in creation, including my own decisions, can separate me from his love. So it follows that no one, not even God, condemns me. That is my understanding. What would you say to that view, and aside from that, what would an EO appreciate in these verses?

nothing can separate anyone from God’s love, but if I reject that love then it’s torment to me. so we condemn ourselves, and God honors that choice.

 

[JosephJurg]

Thank you very much for this ongoing discussion. I appreciate you taking your time to continue answering my questions. And my questions keep multiplying it feels like

nothing can separate anyone from God’s love, but if I reject that love then it’s torment to me. so we condemn ourselves, and God honors that choice.

Ok so I think what you are saying is God is extending his love and forgiveness to everyone and we either accept it or refuse it in every moment, action, and thought, and God judges us on how much we accept God in our lives. But God doesn't outright condemn (a negative judgement) anyone. I still don't understand how Christians are judged more harshly though since God has forgiven them. Which I guess leads me to another question:
When sin is forgiven in baptism, what is the scope of that forgiveness? Also, how do you personally relate to experiencing a fear of God's judgement as a motivator towards righteousness?

An unrelated question: What is the Eastern Orthodox view on the human history that is described in the old testament? I have heard that EO focuses more on the symbolic nature of the old testament and I really appreciate that because those truths are much more important for our lives. But does the EO have a stance on evolution and and a millions of years old earth?

Thank you!

 

[JosephJurg]

Also is that a real picture of you? If so, your mustache and beard are epic!

 

[ArmyMatt]

Ok so I think what you are saying is God is extending his love and forgiveness to everyone and we either accept it or refuse it in every moment, action, and thought, and God judges us on how much we accept God in our lives. But God doesn't outright condemn (a negative judgement) anyone. I still don't understand how Christians are judged more harshly though since God has forgiven them. Which I guess leads me to another question:
When sin is forgiven in baptism, what is the scope of that forgiveness? Also, how do you personally relate to experiencing a fear of God's judgement as a motivator towards righteousness?

Christians are judged more harshly because we have no excuse for the sins we do. the scope of the forgiveness is total. fear of judgment is the lowest kind of motivator, but it will save many.

An unrelated question: What is the Eastern Orthodox view on the human history that is described in the old testament? I have heard that EO focuses more on the symbolic nature of the old testament and I really appreciate that because those truths are much more important for our lives. But does the EO have a stance on evolution and and a millions of years old earth?

we read it Christologically. in other words, if it points you to Christ than it’s true whether or not it’s literal, allegorical, or both

 

[ArmyMatt]

Also is that a real picture of you? If so, your mustache and beard are epic!

haha, no. that’s a Romanian elder, not me

 

[JosephJurg]

Ya it didn't really look like the kind of guy who would be spending his time on an online forum lol!

fear of judgment is the lowest kind of motivator, but it will save many.

I absolutely agree that fear of judgement is the "lowest kind of motivator" because, thank God, "perfect love casts out all fear." Do you feel like western Christianity has emphasized that motivation too much? If so why do you feel like we have done this? Feel free to answer with as much vehemence as you think is appropriate

the scope of the forgiveness is total.

So does that mean that at baptism all of your past, present, and future sins are completely forgiven? Why would God take back his forgiveness and judge them harshly if they begin to reject him after baptism?
Also, I am beginning to recognize the importance of baptism. I've always understood it as just a symbol of an internal change that had already happened, but I'm beginning to realize that view makes baptism unimportant and kind of arbitrary. Obviously God is outside of time, so from his point of view it doesn't matter when he forgives us, but we are humans and we are in time. It makes a lot of sense that God would want us to have a definite, physical experience of our sins being washed away. I was baptized when I was 7 and I remember I was most excited about getting to swim in the baptismal. Which is bad...

we read it Christologically. in other words, if it points you to Christ than it’s true whether or not it’s literal, allegorical, or both

Ok I think I understand and I agree that pointing us to Christ is the most important way that it can be true. The literal truth is less important than the spiritual truth that the OT stories point to, but I am still wondering what EO Christians believe about the literal history of the earth. Would you say that the Church fathers believed that God literally created the universe in 6 days and the human race began with two fully formed humans? Or is there no consensus and it's not really seen as a doctrinal issue? Like you wouldn't have a problem if an EO member believed that they evolved from single cell organisms over millions of years.

Thanks again, each response is a blessing to me.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I absolutely agree that fear of judgement is the "lowest kind of motivator" because, thank God, "perfect love casts out all fear." Do you feel like western Christianity has emphasized that motivation too much? If so why do you feel like we have done this? Feel free to answer with as much vehemence as you think is appropriate

I don’t know. since Western Christianity is a varied thing, I think that depends on the individual Christian.

So does that mean that at baptism all of your past, present, and future sins are completely forgiven? Why would God take back his forgiveness and judge them harshly if they begin to reject him after baptism?
Also, I am beginning to recognize the importance of baptism. I've always understood it as just a symbol of an internal change that had already happened, but I'm beginning to realize that view makes baptism unimportant and kind of arbitrary. Obviously God is outside of time, so from his point of view it doesn't matter when he forgives us, but we are humans and we are in time. It makes a lot of sense that God would want us to have a definite, physical experience of our sins being washed away. I was baptized when I was 7 and I remember I was most excited about getting to swim in the baptismal. Which is bad...

He doesn’t take back the forgiveness, but the forgiveness IS the judgment when we turn from it.

Ok I think I understand and I agree that pointing us to Christ is the most important way that it can be true. The literal truth is less important than the spiritual truth that the OT stories point to, but I am still wondering what EO Christians believe about the literal history of the earth. Would you say that the Church fathers believed that God literally created the universe in 6 days and the human race began with two fully formed humans? Or is there no consensus and it's not really seen as a doctrinal issue? Like you wouldn't have a problem if an EO member believed that they evolved from single cell organisms over millions of years.

the saints even to this day are clear that Genesis is accurate. that said, there are Orthodox Christians who do believe in an old Earth and macroevolution. so it’s really something to talk to your priest about if it’s an issue.

 

[JosephJurg]

He doesn’t take back the forgiveness, but the forgiveness IS the judgment when we turn from it.

Ok that makes a lot of sense. Being forgiven and then rejecting God is worse than never being forgiven and rejecting God, right? But wouldn't God have already forgiven and forgotten the wayward Christian's sin of rejecting God when He judges them since his forgiveness of them is complete?

Another question, I have heard the idea of "mystery" thrown around in talking about EO. I would define mystery in this context as "something we can't understand because of our limited human capacity" That's different from something we don't understand because we haven't applied ourselves to making sense of it. What would you define as a mystery in terms of talking about EO theology and what are some good examples of it?

Another other question, do EO Christians have small groups? I meet with ~9 other believers of both genders on a Tuesday evening to fellowship in my home and discuss the Sunday sermon and pray for each other. These meetings are led by men the pastors have entrusted with that ministry. I also meet with just a couple brothers in Christ every Wednesday to encourage each other and confess to each other what is really going on in our lives and hold each other accountable to ways we are trying to grow. I find a deep connection to the Church in these groups. To what extent are these groups present in EO and would this kind of thing be encouraged?

 

[JosephJurg]

I have another question, but this one isn't for ArmyMatt. If there are any ladies reading this thread, I am interested in understanding some aspects of EO from your point of view. Specifically, I believe there is more emphasis on the mother Mary in EO. How do you relate to her as a role model? And I think there are many female saints. How have these examples of Godly womanhood affected you? In Protestant theology we have much less emphasis on those things, only the central male figure of Christ. What would you say Protestant women are missing out on?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Ok that makes a lot of sense. Being forgiven and then rejecting God is worse than never being forgiven and rejecting God, right? But wouldn't God have already forgiven and forgotten the wayward Christian's sin of rejecting God when He judges them since his forgiveness of them is complete?

yes, but forgiveness ain’t a picnic if we don’t want it.

Another question, I have heard the idea of "mystery" thrown around in talking about EO. I would define mystery in this context as "something we can't understand because of our limited human capacity" That's different from something we don't understand because we haven't applied ourselves to making sense of it. What would you define as a mystery in terms of talking about EO theology and what are some good examples of it?

mystery is something that is beyond comprehension but can be experienced (ie the Incarnation).

Another other question, do EO Christians have small groups? I meet with ~9 other believers of both genders on a Tuesday evening to fellowship in my home and discuss the Sunday sermon and pray for each other. These meetings are led by men the pastors have entrusted with that ministry. I also meet with just a couple brothers in Christ every Wednesday to encourage each other and confess to each other what is really going on in our lives and hold each other accountable to ways we are trying to grow. I find a deep connection to the Church in these groups. To what extent are these groups present in EO and would this kind of thing be encouraged?

depending on the parish, yes we do. many do in the States.

 

[JosephJurg]

yes, but forgiveness ain’t a picnic if we don’t want it.

OK now it is making sense! God forgives us but if we reject that forgiveness then the relationship is not healed. I can see now that this is exactly how forgiveness works in human relationships. If a rift is created between me and someone else I can forgive them to try and heal the relationship, but if they respond by despising my forgiveness then the relationship is still broken. Thank you so much for that! That truth is really hitting me for the first time right now and all I can say is praise God that he desires a real relationship with us and not a forced one!

mystery is something that is beyond comprehension but can be experienced (ie the Incarnation).

I guess in my mind experience is a kind of comprehension, but I'm probably just quibbling over words there. What I think you mean is it can't be fully articulated and formulated in conscious thoughts but it could be interacted with in images and emotions. Is that right?

You've given me a lot to think about so I think I'm done asking questions for now, but I will probably be back. Thank you so much for taking your time to help me in this.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I guess in my mind experience is a kind of comprehension, but I'm probably just quibbling over words there. What I think you mean is it can't be fully articulated and formulated in conscious thoughts but it could be interacted with in images and emotions. Is that right?

and interacted with beyond emotion and image

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Thank you for your straightforward reply ArmyMatt.

Just an FYI, "ArmyMatt" is Fr. Matt...He is a Priest in The Church