Homosexuality

[razeontherock]

David and Jonathan can be debated.

No they can't. You're going to let gayism effectively twist Scripture in your mind to embrace this? Are you content to lay ALL of G-d's armor on the floor and walk away from it?

Here's a post that I think declares the whole counsel of G-d on the larger subject: (wish I'd written it)

"To enter heaven Jesus says this is criteria:

Luke 9
23Then he said to them all: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me."

Understand what it means:
deny yourself - whatever you want that is sin, you must give it up.
take up the cross daily - deny sin's power to crush you
follow me - repentance: identify + change = growth

Homosexuality is in fact a stumbling block for Christians. Question is whether it is a burden and that is your own question to trust unto God. I don't think a Christian would flinch when they learn someone is gay. Sin is between one's self and God, not between each other.

 

[Zaac]

Is their anyway that gays can be christian ?

Identify by Christ FIRST.

People sin. Just as there are Christians who fornicate with the opposite sex, lie, steal, covet, etc,. there are Christians who fornicate with the same sex, lie, steal, covet,etc,.

However, there is no example in God's word of anyone CONTINUING in unrepentant sin and truly belonging to Him.

 

[Avniel]

No they can't. You're going to let gayism effectively twist Scripture in your mind to embrace this? Are you content to lay ALL of G-d's armor on the floor and walk away from it?

Here's a post that I think declares the whole counsel of G-d on the larger subject: (wish I'd written it)

"To enter heaven Jesus says this is criteria:

Luke 9
23Then he said to them all: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me."

Understand what it means:
deny yourself - whatever you want that is sin, you must give it up.
take up the cross daily - deny sin's power to crush you
follow me - repentance: identify + change = growth

Homosexuality is in fact a stumbling block for Christians. Question is whether it is a burden and that is your own question to trust unto God. I don't think a Christian would flinch when they learn someone is gay. Sin is between one's self and God, not between each other.

Couldn't of said it better. Just because I think your life style is wrong doesn't mean I am saying I hate you...........I'm just saying its a sin, to say someone that steals is sinning is ok but to say someone thats homosexual is sinning is judging...............thats being hypocritical a desensitized.

At the end of the day they want to be accepted. And I accept them but I cannot accept their sin. Similar when a brother comes to me and corrects me I accept them and their correction because they cant accept my sin.

 

[Lively Stone]

Actually, in many cases it is not. I don't hate my father, mother, brothers and sisters? Jesus told us to do that (Luke 14:26). I haven't sold all of my possessions? Jesus told us to do that (Matthew 19:21). I don't believe that another person can prevent my sins from being forgiven. Jesus said that they can (John 20:23). When I take the Eucharist, I don't believe that I am eating actual, flesh and blood (but rather we believe either in essence or symbolic but that isn't how Jesus said it)? Believing that the word of God is always explicit is a dangerous road to go down.

It takes the Holy Spirit to show us what the Scriptures mean. Rudimentary and unenlightened reading will always take it the wrong way, just as you have suggested with your examples.

God is explicit in letting us know what is right and what is wrong.

There is no mistaking that homosexuality is something God detests.

 

[Lively Stone]

Hmmmm, couldn't God have taught His people about good land use, farming and good law without referring to the term 'abomination'? Are you inferring that there are different degrees of what God finds abominable?

You do know that abomination simply means detestable?

No offense but you either made that up or you use what you've been taught to say simply because it 'sounds good'. It's not scriptural.

What???

Read 1 Corinthians 18-19
18 Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body. 19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?

God's morality never changes? You DO realize that God approves of rape, murder, pillage and the taking of slaves, do you not? I surely HOPE that God's morality changed when Jesus arrived on the scene. It seems like it did. As for family being important to God, He seems fine with child sacrifice just as long as it isn't done in dedication to Molech (Leviticus 18:21).

You do realize that when one gets to know God in a personal relationship, He reveals Himself to be only righteous in all His dealings with man? You do realize that we are not to judge Him? Only He is right, and to judge God as less than perfect is to place oneself over God. THAT, friend, is an abomination above abominations, and worthy of His fierce judgment.

 

[Lively Stone]

So, what makes you 'more special' then from born again homosexual Christians who are also saints, saved by grace, and seen as perfected because they are covered by the blood of Jesus ...?

Sorry, but I'm just not getting it . . .

People who claim Christ, yet continue in their sin are not saved, as they have not truly repented--which means turning away from sin.

Romans 6:1-4

Sin’s Power Is Broken

1 Well then, should we keep on sinning so that God can show us more and more of his wonderful grace? 2 Of course not! Since we have died to sin, how can we continue to live in it? 3 Or have you forgotten that when we were joined with Christ Jesus in baptism, we joined him in his death? 4 For we died and were buried with Christ by baptism. And just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glorious power of the Father, now we also may live new lives.

20-23
20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the obligation to do right. 21 And what was the result? You are now ashamed of the things you used to do, things that end in eternal doom. 22 But now you are free from the power of sin and have become slaves of God. Now you do those things that lead to holiness and result in eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.

1 John 3:6
Anyone who continues to live in him will not sin. But anyone who keeps on sinning does not know him or understand who he is.

 

[Lively Stone]

Exactly we are made into new creatures when saints sin we fall from grace and when we repent our sins are thrown into the sea of forgetfulness. Am I right? let me know if not send me a private message with the scripture so I can know better................dnt wanna get this off topic anymore then it needs to

You are right.

 

[Peripatetic]

It takes the Holy Spirit to show us what the Scriptures mean.

The reason that we have debates about the meaning of scripture (of which there are thousands of examples) is because either:

1. The Holy Spirit provides different interpretations to the same scripture to different people.

or

2. The Holy Spirit provides the correct interpretation to one set of Christians, and Christians with a different point of view are wrong but believe that they too have interpretation from the Holy Spirit.

There are Christians here who are arguing both sides of the Homosexual debate... both believing that they have properly interpreted scripture via the Holy Spirit. Can we always be so sure which side is "rudimentary and unenlightened"? The Bible is clear that some homosexual acts are sinful. It appears to say that homosexual acts in general are sinful (but there is room for other interpretations). It is much less clear (or doesn't say at all) that Homosexuals are sinful by orientation without acts, but that too could be debated.

The reason there are so many debates about scripture (even among life-long biblical scholars) is that things are not always as clear as we'd like them to be.

 

[Lively Stone]

The reason that we have debates about the meaning of scripture (of which there are thousands of examples) is because either:

1. The Holy Spirit provides different interpretations to the same scripture to different people.

Yes, and all are agreed upon when the Lord Himself teaches us. He speaks to us about different things concerning our lives from the word, yet whatever He speaks is agreeable to all.

or

2. The Holy Spirit provides the correct interpretation to one set of Christians, and Christians with a different point of view are wrong but believe that they too have interpretation from the Holy Spirit.

Yes, He tells us exactly what he means to all His own. Those who have an opposite view, which is congruent with ungodliness are troubled, spiritually.

There are Christians here who are arguing both sides of the Homosexual debate... both believing that they have properly interpreted scripture via the Holy Spirit. Can we always be so sure which side is "rudimentary and unenlightened"?

Yes we can.

The Bible is clear that some homosexual acts are sinful. It appears to say that homosexual acts in general are sinful (but there is room for other interpretations). It is much less clear (or doesn't say at all) that Homosexuals are sinful by orientation without acts, but that too could be debated.

It would be a moot debate, for all homosexual acts and inclinations are unlawful to God. Our minds are to be kept under control of the Holy Spirit.

The reason there are so many debates about scripture (even among life-long biblical scholars) is that things are not always as clear as we'd like them to be.

That I disagree with. Scripture is clear on everything that is essential. The reason why there is so much debate is because to many, the sin of homosexuality is a vice and it is fun to the corrupt, and such people do not want anyone to come and put a damper on it--especially God.

 

[oi_antz]

The reason that we have debates about the meaning of scripture (of which there are thousands of examples) is because either:

1. The Holy Spirit provides different interpretations to the same scripture to different people.

or

2. The Holy Spirit provides the correct interpretation to one set of Christians, and Christians with a different point of view are wrong but believe that they too have interpretation from the Holy Spirit.

There are Christians here who are arguing both sides of the Homosexual debate... both believing that they have properly interpreted scripture via the Holy Spirit. Can we always be so sure which side is "rudimentary and unenlightened"? The Bible is clear that some homosexual acts are sinful. It appears to say that homosexual acts in general are sinful (but there is room for other interpretations). It is much less clear (or doesn't say at all) that Homosexuals are sinful by orientation without acts, but that too could be debated.

The reason there are so many debates about scripture (even among life-long biblical scholars) is that things are not always as clear as we'd like them to be.

Actually, all Christians get the same interpretation or they are not Christian. Those who are Christian and have chosen a different opinion over the others are exchanging truth for lie, motivated by some selfish desire to "have something they want". So they worship mammon over God. The motivating mammon in this discussion is either lust or love, these are carnal desires which will be the stumbling block for anyone who has chosen not give up a certain sin in their life. It does hurt to be in that position btw, which is why there is so much gnashing of teeth on this thread Jesus lives in the glory of Heaven where there is no sex or marriage, we are all brothers and the church is His bride.

"Seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness".. do we all know what this means? If your conscience speaks, listen to it! Our holy God would rather have us innocent like children before He would have us glorifying homosexuality. In fact Jesus said that unless we become like children we cannot enter heaven.

 

[Peripatetic]

Yes, He tells us exactly what he means to all His own. Those who have an opposite view, which is congruent with ungodliness are troubled, spiritually.

Actually, all Christians get the same interpretation or they are not Christian.

What about Calvinism/Predestination vs. Free Will/Arminianism? Both sides insist that the Bible supports their view and that the Holy Spirit has lead them to their beliefs. Is one side not Christian?

What about transubstantiation of the Eucharist vs. symbolic only? Both sides insist that the Bible supports their view and that the Holy Spirit has lead them to their beliefs. Is the entire Roman Catholic or non-Lutheran Protestant community not Christian?

I don't want to take this off topic, so I'm not looking to debate those two questions. I'm only supporting my position that life-long Biblical scholars throughout time disagree on the meaning of scripture. To say that "all Christians get the same interpretation or they are not Christian." or "He tells us exactly what he means to all His own." would require a person to make one specific, unilateral interpretation of all debatable aspects. It would say that only those who believe one narrow thread of interpretation are Christians. This would reduce the Christian church to a handful of people.

I'm not supporting relativism here... there is only one truth, but I'm simply saying that no person on Earth gets to know what that one total truth is. In fact, the complete answers to some questions are so complex as to be incomprehensible to the human mind. To imply that any one of us "knows it all" is very very dangerous. It's a trap that has haunted evangelical churches for a long time. We must surrender to God, pray for wisdom, and humble ourselves before him.

 

[OllieFranz]

Actually, all Christians get the same interpretation or they are not Christian. Those who are Christian and have chosen a different opinion over the others are exchanging truth for lie, motivated by some selfish desire to "have something they want". So they worship mammon over God. The motivating mammon in this discussion is either lust or love, these are carnal desires which will be the stumbling block for anyone who has chosen not give up a certain sin in their life. It does hurt to be in that position btw, which is why there is so much gnashing of teeth on this thread Jesus lives in the glory of Heaven where there is no sex or marriage, we are all brothers and the church is His bride.

I guess that means you think that the apostle Paul was a liar and not a Christian. He had major disagreements with Peter and with James, and they eventually compromised. And in Romans 14, he teaches exactly the opposite of what you have written here.

"Seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness".. do we all know what this means? If your conscience speaks, listen to it! Our holy God would rather have us innocent like children before He would have us glorifying homosexuality. In fact Jesus said that unless we become like children we cannot enter heaven.

 

[razeontherock]

Couldn't of said it better. but to say someone thats [active as a] homosexual is sinning is judging...............thats being hypocritical a desensitized.

What?? Sin is sin. You said it just fine; accept the person, but not their sin. Which is between them and G-d.

 

[razeontherock]

Our holy God would rather have us innocent like children before He would have us glorifying homosexuality.

And this is why we should not adopt homosexual marriage. It "glorifies" it, to use an archaic term.

 

[Avniel]

What?? Sin is sin. You said it just fine; accept the person, but not their sin. Which is between them and G-d.

You misunderstood me. If you are my brother and I care about you the way Christ would want me to care about my brother.....and you are a thief and think its ok to steal, I'm going to say brah thats not right its wrong you want me to pray for or with you. And if I am wrong I pray that my brother would do the same I have a fiancee that will. For me to see a homosexual in the church and claim that it is acceptable I would be a hypocrite not to approach them the same way.

But my friend that steals I'm a person trying to help him out of love. But to the homosexuals I am judging them. Sin is sin and if we allow each other to walk around in darkness and dont shed light on others sins when they are sinning then that makes me a coward.

 

[Voice in the Desert]

There's a difference between differences in agreement. Arguing that Homosexuality is not a sin and Biblically supported is not the same as disagreeing over the specifics of free will and predestination. Should people who "honestly believe" that the Bible says there are other ways to God besides Jesus, or that Jesus was not the son of God not be judged wrong because that would be "hateful"?

 

[Lively Stone]

You misunderstood me. If you are my brother and I care about you the way Christ would want me to care about my brother.....and you are a thief and think its ok to steal, I'm going to say brah thats not right its wrong you want me to pray for or with you. And if I am wrong I pray that my brother would do the same I have a fiancee that will. For me to see a homosexual in the church and claim that it is acceptable I would be a hypocrite not to approach them the same way.

But my friend that steals I'm a person trying to help him out of love. But to the homosexuals I am judging them. Sin is sin and if we allow each other to walk around in darkness and dont shed light on others sins when they are sinning then that makes me a coward.

Amen.

 

[onemorequestion]

No they can't. You're going to let gayism effectively twist Scripture in your mind to embrace this?

I have destroyed every single tactic that liberalism has taught its adherants. David and Jonathan is the ONLY situation they have left. Once that is debated and D & J are shown to be anything BUT gay guys, the whole of gay theology is wiped clean off the board.

I received an email that my treatise on the patriarchs and their hotty wives is going to be used at a College.

Are you content to lay ALL of G-d's armor on the floor and walk away from it?

Test my positions and see if I do. You still have to love these liberals even if they are unimaginably wrong.

Here's a post that I think declares the whole counsel of G-d on the larger subject: (wish I'd written it)

"To enter heaven Jesus says this is criteria:


Luke 9
23Then he said to them all: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me."

Understand what it means:
deny yourself - whatever you want that is sin, you must give it up.
take up the cross daily - deny sin's power to crush you
follow me - repentance: identify + change = growth

I could just as easily mean to not eat junk food. Or to buy a house or car.

Homosexuality is in fact a stumbling block for Christians.

As I see it, as great a stumbling block as any other heretical belief system. It is equal to or exceeds that of Mormonism and Islam.

Question is whether it is a burden and that is your own question to trust unto God.

I think that kid from High School Musical is cute. I can deny any lust about him whether thought or deed.

I don't think a Christian would flinch when they learn someone is gay. Sin is between one's self and God, not between each other.

I flinch when anyone tells me they are gay or lesbian. It's unecessary and repugant to me to divulge your favorite sex acts.

 

[Phinehas2]

Ollifranz,

I guess that means you think that the apostle Paul was a liar and not a Christian.

You mean was Christian and told the truth that the risen Lord imparted to him, this is what oi_antz meant. I know that, Christians have the same Holy Spirit of God which believes the Biblical testimony.
Any disagreements the NT apostles had that are described were sorted. Peter forget and was reminded of what Jesus taught, and the other disagreements were over who was sent. No disagreement over the topics here such as homosexuality.

I agree with almost all oi_antz writes, I disagree with almost all you write.

 

[Znex]

I don't see why they can't be. I've heard of murderers and thieves becoming Christians. Paul tells us in Romans, "That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved."

However, one would assume that once one became Christian, that they would focus on pleasing The Lord rather than themselves or the status quo. As Paul describes it in his letter to the Ephesians, we are "to put off [our] old selves, which are being corrupted by their deceitful desires". For homosexuals, this would mean likewise abandoning their homosexuality.