Homosexuality

[chris777]

What is the will of God? If you don't have any clue what you speak of, how are you able to know what His will is? how are you able to know, from a book 3,00 years old not addressing people born with innate, same sex attractions? please inform all of us here, we would love to know!

Question,( and this is me trying to comprehend you position)

When you say homosexuality is a birth defect stemming from the fall
Would you think it may be treatable like other so called mental illnesses?
And no I don't mean the reparitie therapy you and other have been deriding. I mean by "medications" to alter brain chemistry?

 

[davedjy]

Question,( and this is me trying to comprehend you position)

When you say homosexuality is a birth defect stemming from the fall
Would you think it may be treatable like other so called mental illnesses?
And no I don't mean the reparitie therapy you and other have been deriding. I mean by "medications" to alter brain chemistry?

I don't know, do you think I'm a Scientist?

I do believe it is possible to be cured, but I don't:

a) see the point of getting cured, since I know that God doesn't care, I've prayed lots about it

b) see any "brain altering" medications available, so that point is neither here nor there.

I never said homosexuality was a mental illness, I said a defect after the fall, BIG difference!

 

[angelmom01]

Do you not believe that the flesh battles the spirit?

Yes I do.

What does that have to do with lust not being an "act" but a "desire"?

If it was the physical act that was the sin, there would have been no need for Christ to say: "You have heard it said.... BUT I SAY unto you..... "

There was no "act" involved in what Christ called "adultery" - only the DESIRE, the THOUGHT, the LUST.

It can be quite easy to not commit adultery if the only “measure’ for whether or not one is “guilty” is whether or not they “acted” upon their desire/lust.

It’s much easier to control what we DO then it is to control how we FEEL and THINK.

That’s why it’s NOT just what we DO, but ALSO what we feel and think.

It is NOT just what we DO that is judged; it is our HEARTS that are judged. That is where it all begins, out of the heart.

So you can't just address the "act" and not address (or overlook) the feelings/motivations/desires/etc. That is ALL I am saying. If that were the case, Christ wouldn't have re-defined what adultery IS.

So if Christians don't have to live by GOD'S definition of what ADULTERY is, then why should they be pushing off their "morals" on issues like homosexuality - saying "GOD said so"?

I'm just saying that we should, at least, be consistent.


angelmom

 

[chris777]

I don't know, do you think I'm a Scientist?

like I said I am trying to comprehend you position, because you have to admit its not the norm

I do believe it is possible to be cured, but I don't:

a) see the point of getting cured, since I know that God doesn't care, I've prayed lots about it

As You clarified when you stated you believed what you believed the other day

b) see any "brain altering" medications available, so that point is neither here nor there.

I never said homosexuality was a mental illness, I said a defect after the fall, BIG difference!

I know you didnt say that, thats why I am trying to clarify,

You believe it is a defect how, or likened to?

 

[davedjy]

like I said I am trying to comprehend you position, because you have to admit its not the norm


As You clarified when you stated you believed what you believed the other day

I know you didnt say that, thats why I am trying to clarify,

You believe it is a defect how, or likened to?

There are 28 denominations that agree w/me. No, it's not the "conservative norm", but I don't belong to a Church anymore that believes this is wrong. I will continue my music ministry at whatever churches I am called to (I just got called to do something next month, actually).

 

[intricatic]

That is the direction that several people are attempting to drive the debate into, by changing homosexuality from a sin into a birth defect, or disease. however, it is not nessesarily the way things actually are.

Plus this mentality also brings up other questions as well

Well, if homosexuality is an innate quality of a person, that would be accurate. I don't think that would imply that homosexual orientation is a sin, though.

 

[davedjy]

That is the direction that several people are attempting to drive the debate into, by changing homosexuality from a sin into a birth defect, or disease. however, it is not nessesarily the way things actually are.

Plus this mentality also brings up other questions as well

YOU personally do not know what causes it, so I don't think you are qualified, to judge this. I would like to think I am more qualified, knowing I've had the feelings my whole life, I know mine isn't caused by some underlying social stemming.

 

[savedfromdistruction]

you may dislike it all you want but no study has ever shown 100% EITHER way whether they are born that way or not.

There is no need for a study. We have the bible and it calls it sin. That means it is a choice since all sin is a choice.

 

[chris777]

YOU personally do not know what causes it, so I don't think you are qualified, to judge this. I would like to think I am more qualified, knowing I've had the feelings my whole life, I know mine isn't caused by some underlying social stemming.

You are correct I dont know, And I was not specifically refering to you as your view of it is unique, from what I know of it. hence my questions as to flesh it out.

I have heard others say that God made them that way, Which Sounds alot like they are saying God is the reason they sin.
And well I would hope I would not have to elaborate the connotations of that.

 

[Gusoceros]

I apologize, then. That distinction wasn't being made, not even when I asked about it before. It was being presented as though the thought/desire/attraction didn't matter at all so long as you didn't "act" on them.

Not all that was said about marriage (etc) stayed the same after Christ came. If it had women would still be wearing head coverings and only men would be studying the scriptures.

angelmom

No worries, sometimes things need clarifying, and Im glad you asked.

G

 

[davedjy]

You are correct I dont know, And I was not specifically refering to you as your view of it is unique, from what I know of it. hence my questions as to flesh it out.

I have heard others say that God made them that way, Which Sounds alot like they are saying God is the reason they sin.
And well I would hope I would not have to elaborate the connotations of that.

No, not that God is to blame for the sin, that God doesn't believe it is sin because they (we) are born that way, you're twisting words around to make your points.

There is no need for a study. We have the bible and it calls it sin. That means it is a choice since all sin is a choice.

All sin is a choice, however, attractions are not a choice. you can call it whatever you want, you are entitled to your wrong opinion!

 

[intricatic]

Until I see actual conclusive evidence that homoeroticism is not clearly sinful as related to theological currents in the Bible, and explicit statements to that effect, I cannot conclude that homoeroticism is not sinful. I have not seen significant evidence to satisfy this.

 

[chris777]

No, not that God is to blame for the sin, that God doesn't believe it is sin because they (we) are born that way, you're twisting words around to make your points.

That is my point I have literally heard some people claim God made them that way, and your view that you are excempt because you were "born" that way is the first time I have heard it expressed that way.
do you see the dilema?
I am not trying to twist anything I am telling you what I have heard others say.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

We ALL struggle with fleshly desires...some are just different than others. But no matter what, we need to align our will with the will of God.

As noted, its easy to say "struggle against your fleshly desires" when what you consider the expression of "fleshly desires" in me, you consider a "blessed union" in yourself.

Can you explain why God would consider Homosexuality to be against the will of God? What is his problem with it?

Logical answer is required, random Bible quotes wil not be sufficient response...

 

[EnemyPartyII]

That is my point I have literally heard some people claim God made them that way,

So God DIDN'T make us this way?

 

[StTherese]

Yes I do.

What does that have to do with lust not being an "act" but a "desire"?

If it was the physical act that was the sin, there would have been no need for Christ to say: "You have heard it said.... BUT I SAY unto you..... "

There was no "act" involved in what Christ called "adultery" - only the DESIRE, the THOUGHT, the LUST.

It can be quite easy to not commit adultery if the only “measure’ for whether or not one is “guilty” is whether or not they “acted” upon their desire/lust.

It’s much easier to control what we DO then it is to control how we FEEL and THINK.

That’s why it’s NOT just what we DO, but ALSO what we feel and think.

It is NOT just what we DO that is judged; it is our HEARTS that are judged. That is where it all begins, out of the heart.

So you can't just address the "act" and not address (or overlook) the feelings/motivations/desires/etc. That is ALL I am saying. If that were the case, Christ wouldn't have re-defined what adultery IS.

So if Christians don't have to live by GOD'S definition of what ADULTERY is, then why should they be pushing off their "morals" on issues like homosexuality - saying "GOD said so"?

I'm just saying that we should, at least, be consistent.


angelmom

I agree with everything you are saying. I understand what you mean by adultery stemming from the heart. I agree that we can commit adultery without actually commiting the act physically...but there has to be that intention there, where we would will for it to happen. We can have inclinations to sin. This is what I was talking about. Where we are inclined to be tempted by a particular sin without actually willing it or even causing it...this is not sin, but temptation and it can be overcome when we align our will with God's will.

 

[IamAdopted]

With all of this.. The bible tells us that if we are friends with the world that we are enemies of the Lord..We are not to be conformed to this word but transformed by the renewing of our Mind..Getting into the written word of God and renewing our mind and thoughts.. Anyone that loves this world and the lusts of it has not the Love of the Father in Him.

 

[StTherese]

As noted, its easy to say "struggle against your fleshly desires" when what you consider the expression of "fleshly desires" in me, you consider a "blessed union" in yourself.

Yeah well that can be said about anyone. My fleshly desires would not be any sort of temptation for you either. We are each different, yet we all struggle with sin.

We should not let our fleshly desires control us. If we do we become a slave to our passions. Jesus came to free us from the bondage of sin. We should look to Him and allow Him to live in us and through us...."for it is not I who live, but He who lives in me..."

 

[davedjy]

So God DIDN'T make us this way?

No, I don't even believe that, it would be a lie, because of the way our bodies were made. I don't argue "original intent" or "Adam and Eve", but that sin defect (as opposed to sin temptation) has corrupted that way, much like the defects in other things, and diseases.

I don't believe it's a disease, I just believe it has come as a result of Defect from sin in the Garden of Eden. This is why I believe it is condoned and allowed, because it has nothing to do w/sin temptation, it has to do w/sin defect.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Yeah well that can be said about anyone. My fleshly desires would not be any sort of temptation for you either. We are each different, yet we all struggle with sin.

We should not let our fleshly desires control us. If we do we become a slave to our passions. Jesus came to free us from the bondage of sin. We should look to Him and allow Him to live in us and through us...."for it is not I who live, but He who lives in me..."

No, it can't be said about ANYONE... heterosexual people can get married, and then no one ever questions them acting on their "fleshly desires"