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Homosexuality - Here I stand.

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LightHorseman

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It is easy to miss the most important lessons in the bible. The Israel followed a cloud through the desert for some forty years. That were punished in this way because they did not have Faith in God, they cowered before humans. They did not follow him because they did not understand.

Indeed, it IS easy to miss the most important lessons in the Bible... like forgiveness, acceptance, and loving our neighbours. Far to easy to get bogged down in highly nuanced, translation slanted arbitrary bronze age laws instead of trying to love one another unconditionally.
 
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Sitswithamouse

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You need to read the whole scripture in context Sits. All you have to do is look it up online or open your Bible. Easy really.

Matthew 23

Seven Woes

1Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. 3So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them. 5"Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries[a] wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them 'Rabbi.'
8"But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. 9And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ.[b] 11The greatest among you will be your servant. 12For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
13"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.[c]
15"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.
16"Woe to you, blind guides! You say, 'If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.' 17You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? 18You also say, 'If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.' 19You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20Therefore, he who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21And he who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. 22And he who swears by heaven swears by God's throne and by the one who sits on it.
23"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
25"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
27"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean. 28In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
29"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30And you say, 'If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' 31So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!
33"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.
37"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. 38Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'[d]"
Footnotes:

  1. Matthew 23:5 That is, boxes containing Scripture verses, worn on forehead and arm
  2. Matthew 23:10 Or Messiah
I'm sorry One 11 It is still hypocrisy.
To take commandments from a preacher who does the things they tell you not to is leading their church into hypocrisy.
 
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david_x

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Indeed, it IS easy to miss the most important lessons in the Bible... like forgiveness, acceptance, and loving our neighbours. Far to easy to get bogged down in highly nuanced, translation slanted arbitrary bronze age laws instead of trying to love one another unconditionally.

Indeed, however, the lesson i was looking for was Faith. We are a slave to God because of what we know.
 
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Zeena

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Zeena,

I agree with you that homosexuality is sinful. Please remember though, it is not us who comdemns, it is God. God has decided homosexuality is wrong, and we can quote what it says in the Bible about it, but it is He who judges and condemns, not us. Please make that wording distinction so you don't come off as holier than thou.

d

1 Corinthians 5:9-13
9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

1 Peter 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
 
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LightHorseman

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1 Corinthians 5:9-13
9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

1 Peter 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

"And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived." - 1 Kings 17:22

"On that day there came to him Sadducees, they that say that there is no resurrection: and they asked him," - Matthew 22:23

Take THAT!
 
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Zeena

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I'm sorry One 11 It is still hypocrisy.
To take commandments from a preacher who does the things they tell you not to is leading their church into hypocrisy.
And if the Holy Spirit bears witness to the Truth?

It's part of your cross, carry it!

Matthew 10:38
And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
 
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Zeena

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My point is simply that we need to follow/ have faith despite the evidence against us. "Blind" service as you put it.
1 Peter 4:8
above all things being fervent in your love among yourselves; for love covereth a multitude of sins:

1 Corinthians 13:7
Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
 
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Sitswithamouse

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And if the Holy Spirit bears witness to the Truth?

It's part of your cross, carry it!

Matthew 10:38
And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
No it is not.
Follow a preacher who tells you what you want to hear and then be proved to be wrong, so that he tells you to do what Jesus tells you but he will do his own thing.

MATTHEW 10:38 Read it again, your preacher is not worthy of you when he lies to you.
 
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one11

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I'm sorry One 11 It is still hypocrisy.
To take commandments from a preacher who does the things they tell you not to is leading their church into hypocrisy.

True, but it's still better to read the whole scripture in context.

Some scriptures can stand alone, while others without context aren't representing the true meaning of what is being taught.

As far as hypocrites in the church, I don't understand what you mean? I wouldn't ask the church for permission if I didn't know, as I've been saying all along I'd ask Jesus, Yeshua Messiah.

I am non-denominational. I don't believe in any church hierarchy as being what one should follow, and this is what Jesus was teaching in Matthew 23. Follow me, he was saying.
 
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LightHorseman

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My point is simply that we need to follow/ have faith despite the evidence against us. "Blind" service as you put it.
You are welcome to believe that, of course. I have faith in the revealed Christ, who doesn't ask for blind faith. But thats me.
 
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david_x

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You are welcome to believe that, of course. I have faith in the revealed Christ, who doesn't ask for blind faith. But thats me.

I don't mean to imply that I simply follow blindly all the time, the greater majority of the time I know what God means. On this subject specifically, nothing has been revealed.
 
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Sitswithamouse

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True, but it's still better to read the whole scripture in context.

Some scriptures can stand alone, while others without context aren't representing the true meaning of what is being taught.

As far as hypocrites in the church, I don't understand what you mean? I wouldn't ask the church for permission if I didn't know, as I've been saying all along I'd ask Jesus, Yeshua Messiah.

I am non-denominational. I don't believe in any church hierarchy as being what one should follow, and this is what Jesus was teaching in Matthew 23. Follow me, he was saying.
Consider you went to a mega church, or a evangelical church. A smaller church, a congregation.
Your leader who imbibed by the holy spirit forbids you to partake of an act that the bible says is wrong. Now your pastor has been outed to be an adulterer, a voyeur of pornography, a Gay a lesbian a theif a liar a blasphemor
Why would you stay with a leader human or not, who has betrayed your very beliefs.
Who are the sheep and who are the wolves in this situation when you have been led astray?
 
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LightHorseman

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I don't mean to imply that I simply follow blindly all the time, the greater majority of the time I know what God means. On this subject specifically, nothing has been revealed.
It seems odd to me that this is the one subject that is condemned without a clear reason being given.
 
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david_x

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It seems odd to me that this is the one subject that is condemned without a clear reason being given.

Sorry I worded that poorly. I didn't mean to imply that it was the only subject, only that it was one of the subjects that has me perplexed.
 
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david_x

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Consider you went to a mega church, or a evangelical church. A smaller church, a congregation.
Your leader who imbibed by the holy spirit forbids you to partake of an act that the bible says is wrong. Now your pastor has been outed to be an adulterer, a voyeur of pornography, a Gay a lesbian a theif a liar a blasphemor
Why would you stay with a leader human or not, who has betrayed your very beliefs.
Who are the sheep and who are the wolves in this situation when you have been led astray?

Assuming that I love this pastor, I would forgive. As far as what would be good for the rest of the Church, we should elect another while healing is done on the terrible wounds made by the pastor. At such a time as the victims and church consent he should be made pastor again.
 
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LightHorseman

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Sorry I worded that poorly. I didn't mean to imply that it was the only subject, only that it was one of the subjects that has me perplexed.
No, no, thats MY wording... I submit that homosexuality appears to be the ONLY condemned activity that does not have a clearly explicable reason for being condemned.
 
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Zeena

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We're ALL sinners... so how can ANY of us have such a conversation?

No, I don't buy you dissmissive answer. I have known a few homosexual people who wrestled long and hard with their sexuality, often maintaining celibacy while praying for guidance, who were never convicted that there was anything wrong with their sexuality. I don't think the "if yer a sinner, you can't hear the spirit" is sufficient answer in such cases.

Is this being justified freely by his grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus?

Or is it the subversion of the entire system of grace and mercy revealed in the Gospel?
 
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david_x

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No, no, thats MY wording... I submit that homosexuality appears to be the ONLY condemned activity that does not have a clearly explicable reason for being condemned.

Oh, sorry. Long day. Turns out Nursing is a really tough major...

Anyways, if your looking for other condemned activities without "justification"...
Evolution, there are still a couple tricky parts to account for.
Bestiality, but that is against state law too.
Honor thy Mother and Father, haha just kidding.
Overeating, many don't understand why it's a sin.
Speeding, many people don't see the waste of oil or disobeying the law as sin.
 
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