Homosexuality - Here I stand.

[LightHorseman]

I understand your hesitation to accept this train of thought. Yet it must be accepted that God's reasoning is beyond our own. We will never know why he allows countless people to be condemned, nor why he chose us to be saved. One day we will meet him in the clouds and then we way understand some of the plan, until then we can simply take another step and have faith in what God leads us to.

See, I can understand people being condemned through their own choices... i.e. I CHOOSE to be a thief and a killer, even after the Holy Spirit convicts me not to be, so I am condemned. However, Homosexual people don't make such a choice, especially those who pray for guidance whom the Holy Spirit does not convict of being in error. So in effect, such people are being condemned through no choice of their own, even after they have taken steps to get clarification of the correct path for them, they are STILL condemned through no fault of their own... Is this the way of an infinitely just God? I think not.

 

[Zeena]

How about we stick with natural urges that humans share with animals, rather than your straw herring? (thats where a red herring and a strawman argument combine, I just made it up, but I think it suits)

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Which word didn't you understand?

You were speaking of the natural man, as your very first sentence indicates. And Scripture speaks expressly to this wise; the NATURAL MAN DOES NOT RECEIVE THE THINGS OF GOD.

The Impotence of the Natural Man (2:14-16)
The student is now prepared to identify the “natural man,” in light of the preceding context. The term “natural” (Grk. psuchikos—v. 14a) stands in contrast to “spiritual” (pneumatikos man mentioned in 15a. (Note the adversative particle [de] that begins verse 15.)
From the context, it is perfectly clear that the “spiritual” person is one who is supernaturally endowed with the Spirit, and thus is qualified to bring those “words” which the Holy Spirit is teaching him (v. 13). Accordingly, the “natural” man is simply the one who does not have access to divine revelation. He relies upon the “wisdom of the world,” hence, knows nothing of the “things of God.” He has no ability to “receive” (i.e., access; a middle voice form suggesting “unto himself”) the sacred truths that issue from the “mind of the Lord” (v. 16).

Source --> http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/643-who-is-the-natural-man-in-1-corinthians-2-14

See, I can understand people being condemned through their own choices... i.e. I CHOOSE to be a thief and a killer, even after the Holy Spirit convicts me not to be, so I am condemned. However, Homosexual people don't make such a choice, especially those who pray for guidance whom the Holy Spirit does not convict of being in error. So in effect, such people are being condemned through no choice of their own, even after they have taken steps to get clarification of the correct path for them, they are STILL condemned through no fault of their own... Is this the way of an infinitely just God? I think not.

And this is what the natural man looks like, accusing God of injustice for the sake of his [natural] reasoning..

 

[david_x]

I mean finish the following cause/effect statement for me;

playing in the street is bad BECAUSE the child could be hit by a car, and be badly hurt or killed.

Homosexuality is bad BECAUSE .....

Perhaps only God knows the full trauma of this sin, you should ask him not me.

 

[LightHorseman]

It is not smart to take the teachings in the Bible lightly, today we understand much of what the Levitical law was keeping the Israeli from. Understanding comes with time, until that time we must demonstrate Faith and Patience.

I'm not taking the Bible lightly. But I'm not blindly following it either.

Like I say, show me WHY homosexuality is wrong, and I'll condemn it. I sincerely believe it is wrong, ethically, morally and BIBLICALLY to condemn things without understanding the reason for doing so.

 

[Zeena]

And He prompts you to condemn homosexuals

No.

I do not condemn homosexuals, but I condemn the sin of homosexuality.

who harm no one does He?

Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[LightHorseman]

I
You were speaking of the natural man, as your very first sentence indicates. And Scripture speaks expressly to this wise; the NATURAL MAN DOES NOT RECEIVE THE THINGS OF GOD.

I hope you remember this the next time someone spoiuts off about how homosexuality is "unnatural"

 

[david_x]

See, I can understand people being condemned through their own choices... i.e. I CHOOSE to be a thief and a killer, even after the Holy Spirit convicts me not to be, so I am condemned. However, Homosexual people don't make such a choice, especially those who pray for guidance whom the Holy Spirit does not convict of being in error. So in effect, such people are being condemned through no choice of their own, even after they have taken steps to get clarification of the correct path for them, they are STILL condemned through no fault of their own... Is this the way of an infinitely just God? I think not.

This is a common assumption these days, that sin is as simple as a choice. If you point to a thief or murderer i will assume that they do not tempt you, yet they do some people. For some people their compulsion to kill is just as strong as any sexual drive that someone may have. It is the same with the thief, a strong desire that will never leave, a part of the mind itself.

 

[Sitswithamouse]

Zeena. You would follow false prophets, just because you feel that they speak some truth?? Do you not condone their hypocrisy???

 

[LightHorseman]

Perhaps only God knows the full trauma of this sin, you should ask him not me.

Well, thing is, I HAVE asked God, and, like many hetero and homosexuals who have prayed on the matter, no clear answer was forthcoming.

I think we'd be better off condemning things that we can clearly show are wrong (there are plenty of those) rather than making life difficult for a group of people who aren't harming anyone in any definable way.

 

[david_x]

I'm not taking the Bible lightly. But I'm not blindly following it either.

Like I say, show me WHY homosexuality is wrong, and I'll condemn it. I sincerely believe it is wrong, ethically, morally and BIBLICALLY to condemn things without understanding the reason for doing so.

I can not give you what you want, only God can.

 

[Zeena]

I'm not taking the Bible lightly. But I'm not blindly following it either.

Like I say, show me WHY homosexuality is wrong, and I'll condemn it. I sincerely believe it is wrong, ethically, morally and BIBLICALLY to condemn things without understanding the reason for doing so.

Proverbs 14:12
There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death

Isaiah 55:9
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Ezekiel 33:11
Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

 

[Zeena]

Zeena. You would follow false prophets, just because you feel that they speak some truth?? Do you not condone their hypocrisy???

I never said I would follow men!

I said I would follow the promptings of the Holy Spirit.
Because Jesus is my Life, and my mind is being renewed.

John 8:29
And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

 

[LightHorseman]

This is a common assumption these days, that sin is as simple as a choice. If you point to a thief or murderer i will assume that they do not tempt you, yet they do some people. For some people their compulsion to kill is just as strong as any sexual drive that someone may have. It is the same with the thief, a strong desire that will never leave, a part of the mind itself.

Except the difference is that someone with an urge to kill or steal can rationally evaluate their urges and see how acting on them would harm others. Homosexuals do not have this option. I would also contend that sexual urges are much stronger than anyone's urge to kill or steal, although that is just a guess on my part. Indeed, I'd go so far as to say that if the urge to kill is as deeply felt and integral to a persons sense of self as sexuality is for you or me, then maybe killing for that person isn't sinful? Can of worms I know... but its all about free will and so on. And no *sigh* I'm not condoning murder, or saying people should be allowed to kill anyone, I'm merely offering as food for thought that maybe some people genuinely can't seperate themselves from their urges.

I still say that killing and theft are demonstrably different from homosexuality as homosexualty doesn't harm anyone, whereas theft and murder do.

 

[one11]

But you would still obey them.
Do you not see the hypocrisy in this?

You need to read the whole scripture in context Sits. All you have to do is look it up online or open your Bible. Easy really.

Matthew 23

Seven Woes

1Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. 3So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them. 5"Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries[a] wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them 'Rabbi.'
8"But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. 9And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ.[b] 11The greatest among you will be your servant. 12For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
13"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.[c]
15"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.
16"Woe to you, blind guides! You say, 'If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.' 17You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? 18You also say, 'If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.' 19You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20Therefore, he who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21And he who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. 22And he who swears by heaven swears by God's throne and by the one who sits on it.
23"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
25"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
27"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean. 28In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
29"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30And you say, 'If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' 31So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!
33"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.
37"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. 38Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'[d]"
Footnotes:

1. Matthew 23:5 That is, boxes containing Scripture verses, worn on forehead and arm
2. Matthew 23:10 Or Messiah

 

[Sitswithamouse]

Zeena.
Your silence to my questions speaks volumes.

 

[Dogbean]

No.

I do not condemn homosexuals, but I condemn the sin of homosexuality.


Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Zeena,

I agree with you that homosexuality is sinful. Please remember though, it is not us who comdemns, it is God. God has decided homosexuality is wrong, and we can quote what it says in the Bible about it, but it is He who judges and condemns, not us. Please make that wording distinction so you don't come off as holier than thou.

d

 

[david_x]

Well, thing is, I HAVE asked God, and, like many hetero and homosexuals who have prayed on the matter, no clear answer was forthcoming.

I think we'd be better off condemning things that we can clearly show are wrong (there are plenty of those) rather than making life difficult for a group of people who aren't harming anyone in any definable way.

It is easy to miss the most important lessons in the bible. The Israel followed a cloud through the desert for some forty years. That were punished in this way because they did not have Faith in God, they cowered before humans. They did not follow him because they did not understand.

 

[LightHorseman]

Proverbs 14:12
There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death

Isaiah 55:9
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Ezekiel 33:11
Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

"And this is the offering which ye shall take of them; gold, and silver, and brass," - Exodus 25:3

Think about THAT!

 

[david_x]

Except the difference is that someone with an urge to kill or steal can rationally evaluate their urges and see how acting on them would harm others. Homosexuals do not have this option. I would also contend that sexual urges are much stronger than anyone's urge to kill or steal, although that is just a guess on my part. Indeed, I'd go so far as to say that if the urge to kill is as deeply felt and integral to a persons sense of self as sexuality is for you or me, then maybe killing for that person isn't sinful? Can of worms I know... but its all about free will and so on. And no *sigh* I'm not condoning murder, or saying people should be allowed to kill anyone, I'm merely offering as food for thought that maybe some people genuinely can't seperate themselves from their urges.

I still say that killing and theft are demonstrably different from homosexuality as homosexualty doesn't harm anyone, whereas theft and murder do.

I guess that we are down to one argument then...

 

[HuntingMan]

Homosexuality

1.0
"abusers of themselves with mankind"

Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
(Rom 1:24-27 KJV)

It doesnt get any clearer than that. Regardless of what else is going on the ACT of men being with men sexually is 'shameful'.
For idolatry God gave them over to their perverse desires and vile affections, but vile these affections ARE REGARDLESS of how they came to be !

And also;

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind

For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
(1Ti 1:10 KJV)

G733
(1Co 6:9 KJV)

G733
G733
ἀρσενοκοίτης
arsenokoitēs
Thayer Definition:
1) one who lies with a male as with a female, sodomite, homosexual
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G730 and G2845

which is from :


G2845
κοίτη
koitē
koy'-tay
From G2749; a couch; by extension cohabitation; by implication the male sperm: - bed, chambering, X conceive.


G730
ἄῤῥην, αρσην
arrhēn arsen
ar'-hrane, ar'-sane
Probably from G142; male (as stronger for lifting): - male, man.

The word speaks for itself. Its no wonder Strongs and Thayers both believe this word is about homosexuals...especially given the rest of scripture on the matter.


And here we have the Mosaic Law, GODS law, which forbids men having sex with men like one does a woman.

(Lev 18:22 KJV) Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

(Lev 20:13 KJV) If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Perfectly consistent...


2.0
Romans 1:26-27 - Vile Affections

In Romans 1 the state of the persons in Romans there is a RESULT of their idolatry.

For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
(Rom 1:26-27 KJV)

BECAUSE of their idolatry God gave them up TO their vile affections...the affections/desires themselves ARE vile/sinful.
One doesnt have to commit idolatry to commit sexual sin, so the connection between the two, while it DOES exist in Romans 1, doesnt necessarily have to exist in EVERY other instance.

In Romans 1:26 above we see that these were turned over to 'vile affections'.

For this causeG1223 G5124 GodG2316 gave them upG3860 G846 untoG1519 vileG819 affections:G3806...
(Rom 1:26 KJV+)

Here are the definitions of these words.

Vile
G819
ἀτιμία
atimia
at-ee-mee'-ah
From G820; infamy, that is, (subjectively) comparative indignity, (objectively) disgrace: - dishonour, reproach, shame, vile.

NT usage;
G819
ἀτιμία
atimia
Total KJV Occurrences: 7
dishonour, 4
Rom_9:21, 1Co_15:43, 2Co_6:8, 2Ti_2:20
reproach, 1
2Co_11:21
shame, 1
1Co_11:14
vile, 1
Rom_1:26


Affections
G3806
πάθος
pathos
path'-os
From the alternate of G3958; properly suffering (“pathos”), that is, (subjectively) a passion (especially concupiscence): - (inordinate) affection, lust.

NT usage;
G3806
πάθος
pathos
Total KJV Occurrences: 4
affection, 1
Col_3:5
affections, 1
Rom_1:26
inordinate, 1
Col_3:5
lust, 1
1Th_4:5

As you can see the usage of each word in the new testament is quite consistent.

These were given over to these vile affections, and what does the scripture show that these 'vile affections' were being defined as ?

...vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly...

It is VERY clear that burning with lust for those of the same gender and acting out on that lust is what this 'vile affection'...otherwise the statement has no meaning.


Homosexuality is a sin and therefore the gay christian needs to abstain from that sin. To WILLFULLY continue in it would seem to lead one into the predicament mentioned in Hebrews 10.

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
(Heb 10)

Obviously based on the context of the chapter and the entire book this isnt speaking about merely sinning otherwise we'd ALL be in this position, but very clearly there is some point where our WILLFULL sin shows that we have trampled the Son underfoot and spit in the face of the Spirit of Grace.


3.0

Same passage, different part.

Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
(Rom 1:24-27 KJV)

The context is clear enough that men gave up what was natural with the woman and turned to one another in their lusts.

As in my other thread we can easily conclude that while God DID turn them over to this sin seemingly for their idolatries, the ACTS themselves are shown as
-unclean
-dishonour
-vile
-unseemly
-error

Here are the definitions of these words (as shown above in red).
These show the overall TONE of the acts these are involved in;

unclean
G167
ἀκαθαρσία
akatharsia
ak-ath-ar-see'-ah
From G169; impurity (the quality), physically or morally: - uncleanness.

dishonor
G818
ἀτιμάζω
atimazō
at-im-ad'-zo
From G820; to render infamous, that is, (by implication) contemn or maltreat: - despise, dishonour, suffer shame, entreat shamefully.

vile
G819
ἀτιμία
atimia
at-ee-mee'-ah
From G820; infamy, that is, (subjectively) comparative indignity, (objectively) disgrace: - dishonour, reproach, shame, vile.

unseemly
G808
ἀσχημοσύνη
aschēmosunē
as-kay-mos-oo'-nay
From G809; an indecency; by implication the pudenda: - shame, that which is unseemly.

error
G4106
πλάνη
planē
plan'-ay
Feminine of G4108 (as abstraction); objectively fraudulence; subjectively a straying from orthodoxy or piety: - deceit, to deceive, delusion, error.

So we see in this part of the passage that God has given them up to this 'uncleaness'.

God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

Regardless of whether they were involved in this act PRIOR to God turning them over to it or not it is quite CLEAR that these acts themselves are all of the things listed above else scripture is quite erroneous to begin with.
These acts being defined as men and woman leaving the natural and lusting after those of the same gender and carrying out those lusts into actions.