Homosexuality - Here I stand.

[LightHorseman]

It is awesome that you bring that up...I am celibate.

If what you say is
a. true
b. through choice, rather than lack of opportunity
then I sincerely commend you on your personal strength and commitment. However, my point stands that there seem to be a great many people happy to condemn homosexuality for "spiritual reasons" who never give a second thought to Paul's call for celibacy. For me, I find it quite hypocritical for someone in a happy commited heterosexual relationship to tell a homosexual person that they should just accept celibacy. You would be one of very few people I have encountered who can say such a thing without smacking of hipocrisy.

 

[Sitswithamouse]

Many, a that is what will happen. That does not, however, mean that i will not trust them. If they mislead, not my fault but if i disobey and they do prove to be in the right i have scorned the One i love.

But they have mislead you and in claiming that the holy spirit tells you the truth about them you have followed your discernment and it has led you to believe that any pastor or preacher tells you the truth.

It is your fault and the fault of your convictions to followthis preacher who has proved to be a hypocrite.

 

[LightHorseman]

If one is living out a sin, it is unlikely that they actually hear anything from God in such a conversation.

We're ALL sinners... so how can ANY of us have such a conversation?

No, I don't buy you dissmissive answer. I have known a few homosexual people who wrestled long and hard with their sexuality, often maintaining celibacy while praying for guidance, who were never convicted that there was anything wrong with their sexuality. I don't think the "if yer a sinner, you can't hear the spirit" is sufficient answer in such cases.

 

[Zeena]

I understand that.
But.........
What if a pastor told you that being Gay was a sin and then in private engaged in homosexual acts?

ETA.. and you were convicted by the holy spirit after his advice that he was right and telling the truth?

Mathew 23:3
So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.

 

[david_x]

If what you say is
a. true
b. through choice, rather than lack of opportunity
then I sincerely commend you on your personal strength and commitment. However, my point stands that there seem to be a great many people happy to condemn homosexuality for "spiritual reasons" who never give a second thought to Paul's call for celibacy. For me, I find it quite hypocritical for someone in a happy commited heterosexual relationship to tell a homosexual person that they should just accept celibacy. You would be one of very few people I have encountered who can say such a thing without smacking of hipocrisy.

As a child doesn't understand their parent. They are doing it out of love, though i agree that there it is a very misguided way that it is done. Most of what you hear about is the pop-Christian way of dealing with the issue, legislation. That is something that i do not see as profitable or practical.

 

[Zeena]

We're ALL sinners... so how can ANY of us have such a conversation?

No, I don't buy you dissmissive answer. I have known a few homosexual people who wrestled long and hard with their sexuality, often maintaining celibacy while praying for guidance, who were never convicted that there was anything wrong with their sexuality. I don't think the "if yer a sinner, you can't hear the spirit" is sufficient answer in such cases.

They aught not wrestle at all..

Instead, they aught to chose to reckon themselves dead to sin and alive to God through Christ Jesus. Seated with Him in the Heavenlies.

And as they abide in Christ, HE will conquer sin in thier bodies.

 

[LightHorseman]

Mathew 23:3
So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.

"Also the valiant men of the armies were , Asahel the brother of Joab, Elhanan the son of Dodo of Bethlehem," - 1 Chronicles 11:26

Random AND bolded! Woohoo!

 

[LightHorseman]

As a child doesn't understand their parent. They are doing it out of love, though i agree that there it is a very misguided way that it is done. Most of what you hear about is the pop-Christian way of dealing with the issue, legislation. That is something that i do not see as profitable or practical.

I'm sorry, I don't get what you're saying here.

 

[Sitswithamouse]

Mathew 23:3
So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.

But you would still obey them.
Do you not see the hypocrisy in this?

 

[LightHorseman]

They aught not wrestle at all..

Instead, they aught to chose to reckon themselves dead to sin and alive to God through Christ Jesus. Seated with Him in the Heavenlies.

And as they abide in Christ, HE will conquer sin in thier bodies.

Individually, these words make perfect sense.

 

[david_x]

We're ALL sinners... so how can ANY of us have such a conversation?

No, I don't buy you dissmissive answer. I have known a few homosexual people who wrestled long and hard with their sexuality, often maintaining celibacy while praying for guidance, who were never convicted that there was anything wrong with their sexuality. I don't think the "if yer a sinner, you can't hear the spirit" is sufficient answer in such cases.

I see your point, you are correct. I am sorry for my rash answer. Allow me to try that one again.

It is hard to fight the flesh, many have tried and many will fail. In the end we are only sinners, as you put it. Mostly I would blame the popular definition of prayer and Christianity.

 

[Zeena]

But you would still obey them.
Do you not see the hypocrisy in this?

I obey the promptings of the Holy Spirit. Don't you?

 

[LightHorseman]

I see your point, you are correct. I am sorry for my rash answer. Allow me to try that one again.

It is hard to fight the flesh, many have tried and many will fail. In the end we are only sinners, as you put it. Mostly I would blame the popular definition of prayer and Christianity.

I appreciate your further consideration on the matter.

What else can I say? I disagree with you. I think that, in some cases at least, very sincere, very Christian homosexual people have prayed perfectly well and found nothing wrong with their sexuality. If God were REALLY against homosexuality on spec, I think such cases would recieve a far more clear cut answer. And yet they don't. I'm not homosexual, so I can't really speak as to what passes between a homosexual and God in such meditations, but, for me at least, it seems to me that the fact that such people are able to maintain their homosexuality after such prayer and meditation is evidence that God is less condemnatory of homosexuality than some would have us believe. I respect your difference of opinion on the matter.

 

[david_x]

I'm sorry, I don't get what you're saying here.

Allow me to elaborate. When a child is punished they often don't understand that a parent does it out of love. Say the child is playing in the street, the parent must punish the child to save them. The child would not fully understand the reasoning behind this and would thus be defensive and angry.

This is much the same with the way the Church will treat people, or God his children. The offender will think it is cruel and aimed at hurting them specifically.

 

[LightHorseman]

I obey the promptings of the Holy Spirit. Don't you?

And He prompts you to condemn homosexuals who harm no one does He?

 

[Sitswithamouse]

I obey the promptings of the Holy Spirit. Don't you?

Yes I do.

I use this scripture everytime a false pastor tells me how I should live....

I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were cold or hot! So, because you are lukewarm, I will spew you out of my mouth.

 

[LightHorseman]

Allow me to elaborate. When a child is punished they often don't understand that a parent does it out of love. Say the child is playing in the street, the parent must punish the child to save them. The child would not fully understand the reasoning behind this and would thus be defensive and angry.

This is much the same with the way the Church will treat people, or God his children. The offender will think it is cruel and aimed at hurting them specifically.

Uhuh... see... the problem with this argument is that, in your analogy, the parent KNOWS why playing in the street is bad, and can intelectually justify punishing the child to stop the behaviour. However, regarding homosexuality, no one as far as I am aware has been able to come up with any actual reasons to consider homosexuality harmful, other than some vague, ill defined "well the Bible SAYS!" type reasoning. By all means, if you can come up with a way homosexuality is harmful, akin to "playing in the street", then I'm all ears. I'm totally open to pursuasion here, just no one has ever come up with the requisite "homosexuality=playing in the street" demonstration for me.

 

[david_x]

I appreciate your further consideration on the matter.

What else can I say? I disagree with you. I think that, in some cases at least, very sincere, very Christian homosexual people have prayed perfectly well and found nothing wrong with their sexuality. If God were REALLY against homosexuality on spec, I think such cases would recieve a far more clear cut answer. And yet they don't. I'm not homosexual, so I can't really speak as to what passes between a homosexual and God in such meditations, but, for me at least, it seems to me that the fact that such people are able to maintain their homosexuality after such prayer and meditation is evidence that God is less condemnatory of homosexuality than some would have us believe. I respect your difference of opinion on the matter.

I understand your hesitation to accept this train of thought. Yet it must be accepted that God's reasoning is beyond our own. We will never know why he allows countless people to be condemned, nor why he chose us to be saved. One day we will meet him in the clouds and then we way understand some of the plan, until then we can simply take another step and have faith in what God leads us to.

 

[LightHorseman]

I mean finish the following cause/effect statement for me;

playing in the street is bad BECAUSE the child could be hit by a car, and be badly hurt or killed.

Homosexuality is bad BECAUSE .....

 

[david_x]

Uhuh... see... the problem with this argument is that, in your analogy, the parent KNOWS why playing in the street is bad, and can intelectually justify punishing the child to stop the behaviour. However, regarding homosexuality, no one as far as I am aware has been able to come up with any actual reasons to consider homosexuality harmful, other than some vague, ill defined "well the Bible SAYS!" type reasoning. By all means, if you can come up with a way homosexuality is harmful, akin to "playing in the street", then I'm all ears. I'm totally open to pursuasion here, just no one has ever come up with the requisite "homosexuality=playing in the street" demonstration for me.

It is not smart to take the teachings in the Bible lightly, today we understand much of what the Levitical law was keeping the Israeli from. Understanding comes with time, until that time we must demonstrate Faith and Patience.