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Holy Tradition

Jane_the_Bane

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You've got a disconnect of more than 200 years! Armies did not determine who wrote what within Christendom prior to 100 AD.
Here's the thing:
we do not consistently know who wrote what prior to 100 CE.
We can date some (if not most) of the material in the New Testament with a certain degree of accuracy. (For example, we now know that there are three "layers" of composition and editing within the gospel of "John", and that it most likely reached its final form between 90-100 CE.
It's also pretty unequivocally agreed that some of the Pauline epistles were written by Paul, and that these are the oldest documents in the official New Testament canon.
However, beyond that point, things grow considerably more hazy.

Traditional attributions of authorship stem from the most successful faction within Christendom, drawing upon their direct progenitors.
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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We do not even need to read any sinister motives into this whole course of action.

Imagine the situation:

You are part of a movement that has splintered into many competing sects, some of which - including your own - claim to be the only genuine representatives of the original tradition. So - who do you name when it comes to pointing out the "true" representatives of the movement in bygone times?
Some people who clearly belonged to one of your rival sects (those errant sheep who so clearly falsified the TRUE message you believe in), or those who formed the foundation of your own group?

Non-canonic Christianity has always laid claim to some first-generation Christians who were often marginalized and/or maligned in the canonical scriptures: "doubting" Thomas, James the Lesser, Mary Magdalene who was painted as a prostitute by Catholic tradition...
 
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MorkandMindy

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Hi Jane

I have a view of the history of religion which is simple and makes sense to me, but as I know little history it might be 'too simple'.

Have you written up the development of modern day Christianity including Fundamentalism anywhere, or can you point to it somewhere on the Internet?

kindest regards,

Morky
 
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BluhdoftheLamb

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Here's the thing:
we do not consistently know who wrote what prior to 100 CE.
We can date some (if not most) of the material in the New Testament with a certain degree of accuracy. (For example, we now know that there are three "layers" of composition and editing within the gospel of "John", and that it most likely reached its final form between 90-100 CE.
It's also pretty unequivocally agreed that some of the Pauline epistles were written by Paul, and that these are the oldest documents in the official New Testament canon.
However, beyond that point, things grow considerably more hazy.

None of this has any material bearing on truth value. And none of these contents have anything to do with armies, nor political power. That was the claim, and it would be good of you to acknowledge that it has been refuted, or to successfully refute my refutation.

IOW, the basics of the Gospel were complete by the turn of the first century. Yes, a few things may have been added later, and those are the things that are still controversial. Not just who wrote them when, but how they should be applied (or even if) and what they even mean.

All I mean to comment on is the idea that the Gospel was some complete unknown, and it took Constantine and his army to force today's idea down everyone's throat. NOT what happened.
 
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MorkandMindy

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There have been many religions with sacred texts and/or oral traditions but those who believed them were defeated in battle and in some cases totally annihilated so as belief systems they are either dead religions or small.


The victors have been those who have adapted and produced the most militarily successful societies, which unfortunately are not the sanest nor the most eco friendly.


When Spanish Roman Catholics met the Arawak Indians it was inevitable there would be Roman Catholic churches in the Caribbean because on the Island of Hispanola they left not a single Indian alive and were ruthless all over their conquered territories.
 
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MorkandMindy

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I know little about history but did spend 10 years as an active Christian, so I have ideas but am not sure if they are true.


Gospel Christianity appears to be against the use of force for political ends. The Jewish faith was very powerful militarily for it's size and a real threat to Rome. Gospel Christianity grew rapidly during the time the Jewish revolt was forming and whereas the revolt constituted not paying taxes to Rome, the Jesus in the Gospel said to give to Caesar what is Caesar's. And Jesus said one sword is enough.

And the Gospel achieved it's aim when the Jewish revolt was with great difficulty over the course of 3 years, defeated.

Pauline Christianity was very much a faith for soldiers, having a ritual understood to give eternal life.


But those are just thoughts, I await Jane's comments to find out the actual events.
 
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FrenchyBearpaw

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Here's the thing:
we do not consistently know who wrote what prior to 100 CE.
We can date some (if not most) of the material in the New Testament with a certain degree of accuracy. (For example, we now know that there are three "layers" of composition and editing within the gospel of "John", and that it most likely reached its final form between 90-100 CE.
It's also pretty unequivocally agreed that some of the Pauline epistles were written by Paul, and that these are the oldest documents in the official New Testament canon.
However, beyond that point, things grow considerably more hazy.

Traditional attributions of authorship stem from the most successful faction within Christendom, drawing upon their direct progenitors.

Exactly. The earliest existing manuscript copy dates to about 220 BCE, and is not even an entire account of Mark. We have several hundred copies of the gospels dating later than this, and when they do over lap, there are over 30,000 discrepancies - that's more words than are in the NT.
 
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MorkandMindy

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Ummm ... quite a tangent there, feeling better? Care to cite how many native Americans were killed by disease vs the sword?


The thread is about military force and that it is the key reason for the success of the main present day strands of Christianity.

The Arians were defeated, the Cathars were eliminated, it was Jewish intervention that ensured the Protestants would succeed despite starting from almost nothing, against the Catholics, so both exist today.

This is very much on topic because in the OP Jane was concerned that the military success of a belief system is not the best way of determining what we should believe today:


Even within Protestantism, there tends to exist a general consensus that the most successful faction within early Christianity is also the one that ought to be regarded as theologically correct.

Given how power politics and military force have determined success and failure throughout history, I find that to be a fairly daring suggestion, to say the least.

History was written by the victors - and they did not win because of the superiority of their beliefs, but because they eventually had an army to point at anyone who'd promote a different point of view, within or without their own organization.

...

.
 
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FrenchyBearpaw

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The thread is about military force and that it is the key reason for the success of the main present day strands of Christianity.

The Arians were defeated, the Cathars were eliminated, it was Jewish intervention that ensured the Protestants would succeed despite starting from almost nothing, against the Catholics, so both exist today.

This is very much on topic because in the OP Jane was concerned that the military success of a belief system is not the best way of determining what we should believe today:




.

Yes, history demonstrates that religions are often co-opted for justifying military and governmental control and acquisition.
 
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MorkandMindy

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Exactly. The earliest existing manuscript copy dates to about 220 BCE, and is not even an entire account of Mark. We have several hundred copies of the gospels dating later than this, and when they do over lap, there are over 30,000 discrepancies - that's more words than are in the NT.


But are you as worried as I am and I presume Jane is, that just ending up with whichever religion proved to be successful militarily is a really bad way to select a belief system?
 
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MorkandMindy

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Yes, history demonstrates that religions are often co-opted for justifying military and governmental control and acquisition.


There is that side to it, but often the religion does affect the way the nation works and it's military success.


Judaism arose because the shepherding people did not need the agricultural aspects of the pagan religion, and therefore left it and their religion had the role of binding the nation into an effective fighting force.

To defeat that a Roman living in Egypt evidently, wrote a gospel and possibly sent a few improved versions, and totally took the wind out of the sails of the Jewish revolt.

But a pacifist religion is not going to succeed and I think the Roman author expected it to die out. But along comes Paul from Tarsus and the two got blended together.

It is hard to imagine a Buddhist society attacking and conquering it's way across the World.


What the most successful strands of Christianity have is the correct balance between construction and destruction. American Christian Fundamentalism for example favours the use of violence against pretty well any person or nation that thinks differently, but would never produce the level of intellect required to carry through the Manhattan Project for example.

The Jews, atheists, liberals and such who succeeded in producing the first nuclear weapons did so to fight Hitler who was at the time a threat to them. It is no surprise the Manhattan Project consisted almost entirely of foreigners.


The most successful conquering society has the optimal blend of constructive peaceful pro education beliefs with other people who like to go to war.


The problem is that could eventually result in the extinction of the human race. As for those beliefs being true in any sense, it's very unlikely.
 
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Ishraqiyun

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And how would you accomplish that, anyway?
If a person is presenting it as fact that they were authored by eye witnesses (maybe making the claim to show how the miracles attributed to Christ are real as opposed to those attributed to Buddhist or Taoist miracle workers **) they would need to come up with some strong supporting evidence for the authorship claim. How they would go about it is up to them.

Personally I don't make any such claim. I just admit that I don't know who authored most (maybe all) of the texts. As Frenchybear noted though some of the writings attributed to Paul seem to have something going for them in terms of the traditional attribution of authorship. The "Pauline" Pastoral Epistles on the other hand show evidence of having different author/s despite also being traditionally attributed to Paul. At least that seems to be the common view on the Pastorals that I see scholars expressing.

** The common idea being "if the author was actually there the miracle must have took place"
 
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BluhdoftheLamb

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The thread is about military force and that it is the key reason for the success of the main present day strands of Christianity.

And I have shown that idea to be completely bonkers, and no one has refuted it.

Jewish intervention that ensured the Protestants would succeed

Yes, that sure explains why Luther hated Jews so much
 
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BluhdoftheLamb

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If a person is presenting it as fact that they were authored by eye witnesses (maybe making the claim to show how the miracles attributed to Christ are real as opposed to those attributed to Buddhist or Taoist miracle workers **) they would need to come up with some strong supporting evidence for the authorship claim. How they would go about it is up to them.

Bogus. This is a modern idea. An anachronism that doesn't pertain top this genre in the least.

I really thought you would know more about how these things worked. Written statements were by nature held suspect, while testimony from a trusted individual was highly esteemed. There were exceptionally good reasons for this; mainly, those writing things down were oppressive liars.

** The common idea being "if the author was actually there the miracle must have took place"

Well then maybe this is part of the problem: that's not part of the statement.
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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And I have shown that idea to be completely bonkers, and no one has refuted it.
You have shown no such thing.
Let me try to put this as simply as possible:

The teachings and ideologies embraced (and enforced) by the Church existed before all other competitors were eliminated by force.
So did decidedly different positions and sects.
The difference between these groups?
#1 ended up controlling the empire, while all the people in #2 found themselves lumped together with all the non-Christian religions that were outlawed and persecuted with an all-new thoroughness under Theodosius I.

In other words: it is completely irrelevant that precursors to the Christianity we are familiar with today existed in the first century. So did many others, with a very different understanding of what defined Christianity. Things only become interesting once one group outcompetes all others and starts to (re)write the history books according to its own vision.
 
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BluhdoftheLamb

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The teachings and ideologies embraced (and enforced) by the Church existed before all other competitors were eliminated by force.

And when did said competitors come up with their ideas? Not within the Apostolic period. No armies involved. No political power involved.

Your idea is bonkers.

Now, did certain influence and practice come into play at a later date? Sure did, big time. And no doubt that added a certain 'flavor' to the most common practices in a certain area, and that area was pretty big.

This is quite different from what people are running with in this thread.


In other words: it is completely irrelevant that precursors to the Christianity we are familiar with today existed in the first century.

Sorry but no. It is MOST relevant! And the original can be found - and must. By each individual.
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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Personally, I suspect that the most authentic representatives of the historical Jesus were a horribly dull affair that had very little new or revolutionary to offer to the world: people like the Ebionites, who were basically just practicing a variation of Judaism.
It's no wonder that the Jerusalem pillars turned out to be pretty inconsequential in the long run: even without the destruction of the temple, their brand of mosaic legalism had very little to offer to the cosmopolitan Roman world at large - quite unlike Paul, whose syncretist mystery religion was a perfect combination of the familiar (life-death-rebirth-deities, initiation, mysteries) and the startlingly new (religious exclusivism, an ethos of peacefulness, etc.).

Of course, I find the concept of gnosis (that is, an experiential spirituality based on personal insight) to be even more appealing, but I suppose it was just too cerebral and elitist to win in the end.
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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And when did said competitors come up with their ideas? Not within the Apostolic period.
Of course they did.
The gospel of John is clearly influenced by gnosticism (even if it not a gnostic text), and even Paul's epistles show signs of that particular brand of Christianity - so much so that some scholars have even suggested that they ARE gnostic (which I find somewhat unconvincing, but the presence of these other perspective can be clearly felt).
And the (less ingenious but almost certainly more authentic) Judaic Christianity that venerated Jesus as a mortal messiah rather than god incarnate existed before Paul even appeared on the stage. And they appeared his rival even after they'd established a truce at the Jerusalem council, apparently sending out counter-missionaries who challenged Paul's authority over and over again (as can be seen in Paul's authentic epistles, including the ones written after the council).
 
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