Holy Tradition

[Jane_the_Bane]

You have not addressed the post. You have made more stuff up. Is this a pattern?

Mirrors are a wonderful thing. And the bad monkey hates his own smell.

I know a certain someone who has established a loooong tradition of pontificating about how wrong people who disagree with him are without ever putting his money where his mouth is, dodging the issue with terms like "irrelevant" or "self-evident" when in fact it is neither.
That certain someone is currently going through his third iteration on these forums, if I am not very mistaken. Who could it be? I think there's "blood" in his name, but I'm not sure.

 

[lupusFati]

You have not addressed the post. You have made more stuff up. Is this a pattern?

Speaking of not addressing posts, you have yet to reply to the other thread where I posed a challenge to you. You instead deflected it with sarcasm and criticism. So I don't think you have any right to call others on this when you yourself are a practitioner.

Wow, was I like this as a Christian? I hope not.

 

[BluhdoftheLamb]

Speaking of not addressing posts, you have yet to reply to the other thread where I posed a challenge to you. You instead deflected it with sarcasm and criticism. So I don't think you have any right to call others on this when you yourself are a practitioner.

There is no comparison. I made no pretense of addressing your concern, and i obviously don't plan to, anymore than I already have. It's simply not a valid concern, for reasons stated. OTOH, Jane acted as though she were addressing my post, when she did nothing of the sort. I'm sure you can see the difference.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

OTOH, Jane acted as though she were addressing my post, when she did nothing of the sort.

What? I addressed your post, plain and simple.
You claimed gnosticism was rejected because it was exclusivist, unlike the "real" Church.
But the real Church *IS* exclusivist to this day, and even the most elitist gnostic groups were certainly no worse than that.

 

[lupusFati]

There is no comparison. I made no pretense of addressing your concern, and i obviously don't plan to, anymore than I already have. It's simply not a valid concern, for reasons stated. OTOH, Jane acted as though she were addressing my post, when she did nothing of the sort. I'm sure you can see the difference.

I see only hypocrisy. And until such time that you choose to open your mind, I have no further use of you.

Also, I might add that it was the Council of Nicene that determined what books went into the Bible. The roman emperor, Constantine, being responsible for making Christians not only equal with the rest of Rome's citizens but also making Christianity into the major religion, which formed the basis of the Roman Catholic Church.

You're welcome.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Also, I might add that it was the Council of Nicene that determined what books went into the Bible. The roman emperor, Constantine, being responsible for making Christians not only equal with the rest of Rome's citizens but also making Christianity into the major religion, which formed the basis of the Roman Catholic Church.

While Constantine I. certainly played an important role in the history of Christianity, I'd say that his part is somewhat overemphasized. He was certainly sympathetic to the Christian cause, and contributed to the "streamlining" of the church.

But compared to Theodosius I., he could almost be regarded as a neutral force.

 

[lupusFati]

Eh, I only know so much now because of my History 101 class. And to be fair, Constantine was kind of a jerk anyway, from what I learned. If I'm in error then I apologize.

...And to think, as a Christian I came close to hating you, Jane. I don't really remember the username I had anymore on here, as I abandoned this place for years, but I know that I wasn't exactly kind to you, so for that I apologize. For as good as an anonymous confession does for you, anyway.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Eh, I only know so much now because of my History 101 class. And to be fair, Constantine was kind of a jerk anyway, from what I learned. If I'm in error then I apologize.

...And to think, as a Christian I came close to hating you, Jane. I don't really remember the username I had anymore on here, as I abandoned this place for years, but I know that I wasn't exactly kind to you, so for that I apologize. For as good as an anonymous confession does for you, anyway.

No need to apologize. I was kind of puzzled by your reference to a former clash between the two of us, but if it happened under a different username, that explains a lot.

Constantine was sort of ambivalent with regards to his religious policies; Theodosius, on the other hand, outlawed all other religions aside from Christianity, authorized or even participated in the destruction of non-christian temples, images, statues, texts, etc. (destroying the last remnants of the library of Alexandria in the Serapeum, among others), etc.

 

[lupusFati]

I know enough of that to realize that the library of Alexandria was a wonder in it's day. Good old Theo, eh? Le sigh. I think I can see why atheists get so frustrated now, even if I'm still identifying as theist for now. Even if it was recent, I feel as if my eyes are finally all the way open, and what I see around me disgusts me even more than what I thought I knew of the world. To get an idea of what that's like, just squint your eyes so you can see only half of what you normally do. Totally fun, I know.

I never realized how much of my identity was wrapped up in Christianity. In a way it's frightening and empowering to realize this. Perhaps I can rebuild now, on my own terms. Time will tell. The more I think about it, the more I realize I really don't know what I believe in anymore. It's... weird. Losing that much of yourself at once. Weird.

Sorry I'm rambling and this isn't the place for it. Staying up so late does that to you. And I have a lot on my mind. So yeah.

 

[Ishraqiyun]

What time period are you referring to?

2nd and 3rd century when the heresy hunters invented and applied the Gnostic label.

 

[Ishraqiyun]

Constantine really didnt establish the cannon. Even among the orthodox churches that trace their descent to the fathers of the Nicene council there were disagreements over the number of books both in the Old and New Testaments. To this day Russian Orthodox have a larger OT canon than the Roman Catholics. Ethiopian Orthodox have a larger New Testament then the Russian Orthodox.

The Roman Catholics eventually clarified exactly which books make up the canon in council but that was after the EO, OO, and "Nestorians" split (or vice versa depending on who, if any, you consider the "true Church"). Protestants split after that council though I believe. Most of them further trimmed the canon they inherited from the Roman Catholics none the less.

 

[lupusFati]

Yeah, Protestants split after the Council of Nicene I suppose.

The Reformation was during the Renaissance after all. That was how many years after Rome? I forget.

 

[Ishraqiyun]

Yeah, Protestants split after the Council of Nicene I suppose.

I was talking about a later council. The canon wasn't officially decided at the Nicene council.

The biblical canon

A number of erroneous views have been stated regarding the council's role in establishing the biblical canon. In fact, there is no record of any discussion of the biblical canon at the council at all.[60] The development of the biblical canon took centuries, and was nearly complete (with exceptions known as the Antilegomena, written texts whose authenticity or value is disputed) by the time the Muratorian fragment was written.[61]

First Council of Nicaea - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
​

 

[Ishraqiyun]

The council of Florence was the one I was thinking of. It looks like that was in 1451.

 

[lupusFati]

Right, I remember now. I made an erroneous statement.

...This does not bode well for my History final, eheh.

What I was thinking of wasn't the bible but was actually the Nicene Creed. How did I mess that up I mean wow.

I apologize for any misunderstanding and misinformation on my part. Wasn't my intention.

 

[Ishraqiyun]

No biggie. A lot of people actually think Nicea ruled on the issue. It's a popular rumor. I think the Davinci Code popularized the idea.

 

[lupusFati]

No biggie. A lot of people actually think Nicea ruled on the issue. It's a popular rumor. I think the Davinci Code popularized the idea.

Eh what is most likely the case is I heard the incorrect version on this forum years ago, and it stuck with me. Then when we recently went over it in class a couple weeks ago, I mixed the two together.

So yeah. It also didn't help it was pretty late at night.

Still, if nothing else my blunder created a learning opportunity. So it's not all a loss.

 

[BluhdoftheLamb]

What? I addressed your post, plain and simple.

Here is said post, which you completely ignored the second paragraph of:

Rejection of gnosticism is not so sinister as you make it appear. This aspect of gnosticism (and I have always suspected that much that doesn't fit the label has been tossed into that bin) had the message that you had to go to them to get special insight, which your salvation depended on.

The Christian message is exactly the opposite: all people can freely go to our Great High Priest, and our Salvation depends on Him alone. I must include that the claim of Pope has caused every other Church in the world to separate themselves from Rome, and it is this very same issue, as I see it. (Which doesn't make RC gnostic, but still)

 

[BluhdoftheLamb]

2nd and 3rd century when the heresy hunters invented and applied the Gnostic label.

But this has nothing to do with what I was talking about, which is the early Church.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Well, I ignored it because it is one of your usual "facts" that are not backed up by anything other than you asserting that they are.

In this case, specifically: "The Christian message is exactly the opposite: all people can freely go to our Great High Priest, and our Salvation depends on Him alone."

You can find references to bishops (and thus, a clearly established hierarchy) even in New Testament scriptures such as Acts, Titus, 1. Peter, and 1. Timothy. Sure, that was not yet the elaborate, stratified clergy that was to come, but you can tell where this was going.

By the time of the Apostolic Fathers, Christianity had already ceased to be an egalitarian movement, with bishops calling the shots and individual communities being subservient to a Metropolitan bishop.