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I have an honest question. EOs, what is the appropriate use of icons?
How do you commonly see them misused?
How can they be used, in your personal experience, with special emphasis on giving all the glory to God and not having one's devotion divided?
Icons depict God incarnate or creatures in God's image and likeness who are venerated only because God's glory is revealed in their likeness to God by His grace. All True goodness, whether in human persons or angelic ones is "God in them". All glory goes to God, no matter who is represented in the image of the icon being venerated. "Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, with whom there is no change or shifting shadow." (James 1:17)I have an honest question. EOs, what is the appropriate use of icons? How do you commonly see them misused? How can they be used, in your personal experience, with special emphasis on giving all the glory to God and not having one's devotion divided?
Much thanks
All glory goes to God, no matter who is represented in the image of the icon being venerated. "Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, with whom there is no change or shifting shadow."
Not to be a wise guy either, but a cat is not made in God's image and likeness, so therefor cannot serve as an icon of God in the way members of the race of mankind do. Still, glory to God for cats! "O Lord, how manifold are Thy works. In wisdom hast Thou made them all!"I don't mean to be a wise guy, but God has made my cats, albeit indirectly. Glory does not go to my cats if I venerate a picture of them.
Further, why icons and iconoraphic style? Can this be improved upon with 21st century technology? Wouldn't VR headsets or hd displays do a better job simulating a window into heaven? The Roman Catholics use images that are not specifically iconographic, so I don't think the media of icon can be the only image blessed by God.
I don't mean to be a wise guy, but God has made my cats, albeit indirectly. Glory does not go to my cats if I venerate a picture of them.
Further, why icons and iconoraphic style?
Can this be improved upon with 21st century technology? Wouldn't VR headsets or hd displays do a better job simulating a window into heaven?
The Roman Catholics use images that are not specifically iconographic, so I don't think the media of icon can be the only image blessed by God.
you mean half Scripture, and then reason and logic based on half of what is there.
nice, and what actual Russian sources from that time do you have? because folks say that the Titanic was bombed. unless you actually have stuff from Russia at the time, it's simply your own hyperbole and more eisegesis.
that is not the definition of idolatry. so since what you just wrote here is not actually said in Scripture anywhere, that makes this claim of yours which you have said, an idol.
Trinity is not found in Scripture anywhere, so since that is not commanded in revelation as you are narrowly and very personally defining it, that must be idolatry too.
funny, because He commanded the Jews to put images up in the place He commanded them to worship Him.
while true, but you presuppose that you worship in truth, because you presuppose you read Scripture in truth, which others must accept prior to any claim you have that follows.
yes, but you have yet to show that you are rightly defining the Biblical norm, aside to say that you are.
you assume that what we are doing is not what God has commanded.
you are forgetting that St Paul commands us to maintain the oral tradition. just because it was not clearly written in Scripture, that does not mean it was not commanded by God. even though images in His place of worship IS commanded by God.
I believe you are using "half Scripture, and then reason and logic based on half of what is there." Jesus said, “And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?"
you assume you have not added to or taken away from what God commanded us.
Oh no, I acknowledge that I've added and taken away from God's commands! I've made that point several times in this thread that Icons become idols. Scripture insists that perfect theology is impossible...I'm not a Gnostic, but a Christian.
you also assume that only what is clearly in Scripture as you read it is the standard, which is also not written in Scripture.
I've demonstrated with sources that mankind is fallen, sinful and can turn anything into an idol. I've shown how Icons became a "tradition" by the State and not the church forcing it's members to accept the practice.
You are ignoring that.
your line of argumentation is the same that Richard Dawkins uses to try to discredit Christianity.
That was just a cheap swipe. I'll take it on the chin.
Yours in the Lord,
jm
I don't mean to be a wise guy, but God has made my cats, albeit indirectly. Glory does not go to my cats if I venerate a picture of them.
Further, why icons and iconoraphic style? Can this be improved upon with 21st century technology? Wouldn't VR headsets or hd displays do a better job simulating a window into heaven? The Roman Catholics use images that are not specifically iconographic, so I don't think the media of icon can be the only image blessed by God.
Can you send me that?The iconography used by EO's was common in Greek pagan homes and used to depict dead relatives, gods, etc. Icons on ruined pagan homes have been unearthed. When Christianity and the State merged the practice was continued and made "Christian."
There is an entire chapter in "Byzantium : the surprising life of a medieval empire" by Judith Herrin. The author is not a Protestant or even Christian for that matter...just for the record.
I understand, please know that I wrote that in response to your reasoning saying that because God made every good thing, it is a positive good to venerate these good things. However, surely this reasoning does hold up as cats are good, but not venerable.Not to be a wise guy either, but a cat is not made in God's image and likeness, so therefor cannot serve as an icon of God in the way members of the race of mankind do.
Beelzebub (Mark 3:22)? Thank you. I have no further questions.The Devil. Satan.
Icons are a way of Communing with God, and yes we often look upon an icon of brothers and sisters who have gone to be with Christ and ask them to pray that we will persevere in repentance and be saved. Or we may ask for the healing of our desperately sick loved ones.I understand, please know that I wrote that in response to your reasoning saying that because God made every good thing, it is a positive good to venerate these good things. However, surely this reasoning does hold up as cats are good, but not venerable.
On a different note, are icons a way of communing with brothers and sisters that cannot be physically present?
Is that your opinion or does your church state that dogmatically? That's the problem. "Unless you actually have stuff" from a church council "it's simply your own hyperbole and more eisegesis."
See, both can play that game. But why not use the brains God gave us and sort it out?
Like the "Icon of Luke?" People can say a lot of things about faith and facts, but, unless you have a dogmatic statement from your church concerning any issue we discuss...it's just your opinion.
Sorry Matty you must've missed this.
v. 1.-2 destroy Temples belonging to false religion
v. 4-19 worship is prescribed where God reveals His name in the Tabernacle
v. 4. You shall not worship the Lord your God in that way, your own way
v.8 You shall not do according to all that we are doing here today, everyone doing whatever is right in his own eyes,
v. 20-21 the revealed will of God regulates worship
v. 29-21 we are not to be influenced by culture (Icons were cultural in the Eastern Empire and used by Greek Pagans)
v.31 You shall not worship the Lord your God in that way, for every abominable thing that the Lord hates they have done for their gods, for they even burn their sons and their daughters in the fire to their gods.
v. 32 Everything that I command you, you shall be careful to do. You shall not add to it or take from it.
Yes, the Trinity is found in scripture. It's a scriptural idea.
This goes to point.
Deut. 12;
v. 1.-2 destroy Temples belonging to false religion
v. 4-19 worship is prescribed where God reveals His name in the Tabernacle
v. 4. You shall not worship the Lord your God in that way, your own way
v.8 You shall not do according to all that we are doing here today, everyone doing whatever is right in his own eyes,
v. 20-21 the revealed will of God regulates worship
v. 29-21 we are not to be influenced by culture (Icons were cultural in the Eastern Empire and used by Greek Pagans)
v.31 You shall not worship the Lord your God in that way, for every abominable thing that the Lord hates they have done for their gods, for they even burn their sons and their daughters in the fire to their gods.
v. 32 Everything that I command you, you shall be careful to do. You shall not add to it or take from it.
No, others are free to do as they like. I am well within the stream of Western catholicism, both historically and biblically. I know you folks don't like Augustine but he is a great church father even if you deny his scriptural teaching.
You can think, right? You can read? You can draw conclusions? That's how you became convinced that the Eastern Orthodox church was the true church?
Your ultimate authority really boils down to you and your understanding of the Christian faith. You are defining what you want to believe by aligning with the Eastern Orthodox denomination.
Demonstrate that God commanded the use of Icons
canonization of Seraphim please for the readers.
A dog headed saint...
The iconography used by EO's was common in Greek pagan homes and used to depict dead relatives, gods, etc. Icons on ruined pagan homes have been unearthed. When Christianity and the State merged the practice was continued and made "Christian."
There is an entire chapter in "Byzantium : the surprising life of a medieval empire" by Judith Herrin. The author is not a Protestant or even Christian for that matter...just for the record.
How do you commune with God, He isn't the picture?Icons are a way of Communing with God, and yes we often look upon an icon of brothers and sisters who have gone to be with Christ and ask them to pray that we will persevere in repentance and be saved. Or we may ask for the healing of our desperately sick loved ones.
I know that they icons are beneficial. If I hadn't come to this knowledge first hand, them I might have doubts. In my case, providence has it that I will venerate icons as part of my Life of continuing repentance toward God and faith in Jesus Christ, because I know that God approves it. "To the pure, all things are pure." (Titus 1:15)
How do you commune with God,
He isn't the picture?
Through the grace (uncreated energy) that God touches our own spirits with when we practice our faith, the practice of which includes commemorating those "who spoke the word of God to you. Consider[ing] the outcome of their way of life and imitate[ing] their faith." (Hebrews 13:7) We commemorate them with iconography in addition to writing and reading about them. We remember them and think to humbly ask them to pray for us sinners when we enter into a Church or into our private places of prayer and see them depicted in iconography.How do you commune with God, He isn't the picture?
Do you believe the Devil can heal? I don't. If the Devil is the cause of an illness, he can appear to heal by ceasing to afflict, or he can cause symptoms to appear to stop by blocking pain for example, but I do not believe the Devil is capable of actually healing.The Devil. Satan.
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