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History has a way of repeating itself..

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by visionary, Dec 1, 2012.

  1. yedida

    yedida Ruth Messianic, joining Israel, Na'aseh v'nishma!

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    Your last few posts have been excellent! Thank you for the good work.
     
  2. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

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    Reference, seeing that other Jews documented otherwise in regards to those in the land and who worked with Palestinians long before other Jews came back in massive amounts.

    Unfactual as well, sadly. ..specifically in light of what other Jews, be it survivors of the Holocaust or those living in Israel, have long shared on the subject. History is history...and as numerous Jews have never been Zionists or supported Zionism (and said the same things that other Palestinian Arabs have), that must be addressed rather than acting as if all Jews ever saw each other (or other Palestinians) as the same.

     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2012
  3. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

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    Pre-Israel Palestine was not quite the barren dustbowl of Zionist fantasy - far from it. In December 1945 and January 1946, a comprehensive Survey of Palestine was conducted and published by British Mandate authorities on behalf of the United Nations Special Committee on Palestine. The survey revealed that the land was rather prosperous for Arab Palestinians and Jewish famers alike. During the 1944-1945 planting season, nearly 210,000 tons of grain were cultivated in Palestine, of which 193,376 tons were Arab crops, compared to 16,579 tons of Jewish crops. Almost 80,000 tons of olives were cultivated that year, over 78,000 tons of which were grown by Arab Palestinians. Of the over 244,800 tons of vegetables produced in Palestine that season, Arab farmers were responsible for more than 189,000 tons; of the 94,700 tons of fruit, Arab orchards produced 73,000 tons. Almost all of the region's citrus groves were Palestinian owned and operated. Nearly 143,000 tons of melons were cultivated, over 135,600 tons of which were Arab-produced, while almost all of the more than 1,680 tons of tobacco grown were on Arab farms, as were 20,000 tons of figs and 3,000 tons of almonds. Eighty percent of the 40-50,000 tons of grapes and 4-5 million liters of wine were produced in Arab vineyards. The survey found that in Jericho, Tiberias, and in the central coastal plain, "about 60 per cent. of the area (nearly 8,000 dunums) planted with bananas is Arab owned."

    The overall price of the Palestinian agricultural yield that season was more than £21,800,000. Jewish cultivation was responsible for nearly £4,711,000 compared with Palestinian Arab production of over £17,100,000, accounting for almost 80% of total value. Less than two years later, in November 1947, the United Nations recommended that the indigenous Arab majority of Palestine (then consisting of about 70% of the population) establish a state of their own on 44% of its historic homeland, while the 30% Jewish minority (consisting mostly of recent immigrants from Europe) would get 56% of Palestine, despite the fact that the minority owned less than 8% of the land at the time. When that suggestion was understandably rejected by Palestinian representatives, a unilateral declaration established a Jewish State of Israel in Palestine and, in the ensuing war, Israel snatched an additional 22% of Palestine as its own.


    As another noted wisely (for brief excerpt):
    By 1940, Yoseph Weitz, head of the Jewish Agency Settlement Department, commented, “Between ourselves, it must be clear that there is no room in this country for both peoples ... the only solution is Eretz Israel [Greater Israel], at least the Western Israel [west of the Jordan River], without Arabs, and there is no other way but to transfer them all — not one village, not one tribe should be left.” (cited by Noam Chomsky in his book, Peace in the Middle East). During the 1948 War, three-quarters of a million people were driven from their homes by armed zionist settlers; the newly formed state quickly employed its Absentee Property Law to dispossess thousands of their land, their shops, and their orchards. Of the approximately four hundred Jewish settlements established after 1948, some 350 were on Palestinian refugee property. Two-thirds of cultivated land was originally Palestinian-owned. As Don Peretz noted in the September 1969 issue of the Israeli magazine New Outlook, as a result of the 1948 War:
    Whole Arab cities — such as Jaffa, Acre, Lydda, Ramle, Baysan, and Maidal — 338 towns and villages, and large parts of others, containing nearly a quarter of all buildings standing in Israel during 1948, were taken over by new Jewish immigrants. Ten thousand former Arab shops, businesses and stores were left in Jewish hands as well as some 30,000 acres of groves that supplied at least a quarter of the new state’s scarce foreign currency earnings from citrus. Acquisition of this former Palestinian Arab property helped greatly to make the Jewish state economically viable and to speed up the early influx of refugees and immigrants from Europe.
    Israeli military leader Moshe Dayan observed afterward, in 1969, “There is not a single Jewish settlement that was not established in the place of a former Arab village.” By 1958, a quarter of a million acres of land had been expropriated from Palestinians who had remained in Israel. This same genocidal, culturcidal policy remains in operation today.

    Zionist propaganda, on the other hand, has always portrayed Palestine as an uninhabited desert before the arrival of the Jews, a racialist-nationalist mystique typified, for example, by the notorious declaration made by the American-born Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir, who declared, “It is not as though there was a Palestinian people and we came and threw them out and took their country away from them. They did not exist.” In reality the zionist invaders “made the desert bloom” by stealing the villages, orchards, gardens and pastures from their original owners — a desert that had been in bloom for centuries.
    For other places:


    There are other Jewish scholars on the issue that've often dealt with the issue in-depth. One of them is Israel Shahak, who was a a Polish-born Holocaust survivor and Israeli professor of chemistry at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem has done a lot of work addressing the ways that life existed before the formation of the Israeli state - including the myth that the land was not developed well by the Arabs/Jews who lived throughout it for a good bit.



    Noam Chomsky and Israel Shahak on Jewish Fundamentalism - Part 1 of 2
    Noam Chomsky and Israel Shahak on Jewish Fundamentalism - Part 2 of 2


    There are other Jewish settlers who've noted issues as well with the ways people avoid the ways that the land of Israel was cultivated - although it's often avoided due to the narrative that gets passed along of "Palestinian = bad, no hard worker/developer" and "Jew = one who cultivated the land and works hard!". Sad but it happens..and now with the Israel's Bedouins being under persecution due to their settlements being erased and them herded in, it's a pity to see how much of the situation in the Middle East is ignored.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2012
  4. ContraMundum

    ContraMundum Messianic Jewish Christian Supporter

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    That is true. I consider those points in the Bible to be the weakest.

    The difference is that we had prophets declaring God's will quite clearly, so obedience was easy. Now we do not have such a benefit.

    I think there is a fine difference between the "will of HaShem" and what He has allowed. Obviously, the will of HaShem is that "no man should perish", but clearly we see that many do. We don't need to go down the rabbit trail of debating the finer points of Divine sovereignty, do we? I hope not. I'm already a little worn out tonight.
     
  5. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    [​IMG]
     
  6. WOFFED

    WOFFED Guest

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    Two weeks ago was fortunate to be among a small group to evaluate a new 20 minute DVD made by an Israeli Rabbi that was being shown to Christians by an Israeli producer/promoter citizen. The purpose of the DVD was to further galvanize American Christian support for Israel by encouraging us to write their congressmen. It was apparent from the video that the producer believes American Christians don’t know their Old Testament. The entire underlying content of the video was to show OT scriptures over the visual every 2-3 minutes as justification for Israeli’s right to exist as a Nation in their ancient homeland. He would stop the video with each OT scripture expecting us to write it down as though it was news to us. Well, Duh!

    My 2 cents of comment after watching this new 20 min. DVD was that many American Christians know the OT nearly just as well as Jews when it comes to Israel having claim to the land. I suggested he might better show it to the secular Jews in Tel-Aviv. Also, mentioned that Christians are not excited about the prospects of such prominent biblical towns as: Bethlehem and Bethany being located in the West Bank and possibly future property of a Palestinian State.


    Well, that led to a lecture in which I was reminded that the Messiah has not yet come and the only sensible solution is a Palestinian State in order to achieve any peaceful resolution. It also became clear (what was I thinking :doh:) that his interest in Bethlehem becoming the property of Israel was not on his priority list. Now realize that Obama, former Secretary of State Clinton and Congress are in agreement with “BiBi” Netanyahu as well as other moderate and secular Jews who believe that a Palestinian State is the only solution with hope of peaceful coexistence.


    In that this Jewish promoter/producer was a bit taken back with my suggested target audience/demographic for this video (“secular” Jews in Tel-Aviv). My thought now is that maybe American Christians should be focusing (applying pressure/influence) that at least Bethlehem and Bethany become part of Israel in any Palestinian State negotiations. Why should American Christians be opposed to a Palestinian State if that’s what the majority of Israel’s citizens believe is most beneficial to their own interests. In other words maybe not a Win/Win scenario, but the most practical solution as far as most Israeli citizens see any light at the end of the tunnel.
     
  7. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    How much shall Palestine have in land before they lay down their weapons and say, now we will recognize this as the Israeli state? their answer... it ain't going to happen until all Jews are extinct from the planet... not just this land but in every country.

    With that in mind, secular Jews need reminding that when all was taken from them under Germany's Hitler, it wasn't enough, complete extermination was their objective in any country they ran into them.

    So peace deals are not going to help ... until attitudes/faith driven hate is changed. ...
     
  8. yedida

    yedida Ruth Messianic, joining Israel, Na'aseh v'nishma!

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    What I've been saying. They don't want the land. They "had" it once and didn't do a thing with it. So what do they want it now for? They just want to be rid of the Jews. Gaining a portion of the land is going to be just the beginning.
     
  9. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

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    True..

    And sadly, on both sides - be it those on the Palestinians saying God is solely on their side due to the support they've gotten from believers worldwide (be it Jew or Gentile) or the Israelis who assume the same (and falsely/ignorantly say all Palestinians want to have Jews destroyed), the reality is that the heart of the Lord is so easily forgotten.
     
  10. WOFFED

    WOFFED Guest

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    Israeli's religious citizens are fervently praying day and night for the soon coming of the Messiah. They pray it’s just a matter of months before Israel can begin building the third Temple. However, isn’t it true they also believe the Messiah won’t return until the building of the third temple is complete?

    Perhaps the most important sticking point to be hammered out in a peace agreement isn’t Palestinian Statehood as much as Israel’s right to build their temple. The sooner Israel can complete the building of the temple the thinking goes that the sooner the then coming Messiah will solve Israel’s border concerns with its neighbors. Another possibility is war in which Israel's neighboring enemies(with God’s help) are so ruined there's little opposition to them building a third Temple.

    Some believe that Daniel’s 70th week will commence when a peace treaty is signed that legitimizes Palestinian statehood. Others believe it will take a war in which Israel is decidedly victorious (e.g. Abram defeating the kings) before building the Temple. What makes the least sense (Palestinian State) to Messianic Jews may instead make the most sense to Israeli secular Jews that are stressed out, as well as religious Israeli citizens that believe a peace accord for Temple construction (sooner the better) will usher in the Messiah and a lasting peace.

    Which event(s) do you all think will have to occur before Israel begins building the third Temple?

    [​IMG]


     
  11. yonah_mishael

    yonah_mishael הֱיֵה קודם כל בן אדם

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    Doesn’t the Messiah himself set the stage for the rebuilding of the Temple? Why would he appear only after it is constructed?
     
  12. WOFFED

    WOFFED Guest

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    Doesn’t the antichrist (abomination of desolation) defile the Temple before the Messiah returns?

    Isn’t Ezekiel’s Temple (outside area 750,000 square feet equals 17.22 acres) the Third Temple? Why would God go into detail describing this temple (dimensions, etc) if it isn’t to be built by men before the Messiah returns. Is Chanukaha also a precursor to the Messiah, as the son of God, coming in His Shekinah Glory, to rededicate the Third Temple as the High Priest having destroyed the Abomination of Desolation (antichrist)?

    Ezekiel's Temple is a pivotal point in Old Testament Prophecy. Many believe it will be built by the nation of Israel before the return of the Messiah. Some believe Ezekiel was given the remaining measurements of the Temple of Solomon? Some believe they both dovetail perfectly. Solomon’s Temple was destroyed in 586 BC. About 13 years later Ezekiel was given the vision of rebuilding what is believed to be the exact same Temple which had been destroyed.

    Two Witnesses appear to start their ministries a few days before Antichrist’s image is set up in the Temple, and they warn of the terrible events that are about to overtake Israel and the world. In spite of innumerable attempts to kill them, their ministries continue for 1,260 days, until their death, a few days before the return of Messiah.

    The training school at Mitzpe Yericho for cohanlm and levilm is teaching them what they will have to do when the Temple is rebuilt. The sheep pens for training the priests in blood sacrifices was completed 2 years ago. The altar is hollow inside as it is large enough for classrooms inside for performing mock sacrifices and learning how to offer them. The Temple Institute has been busy for twenty years recreating the priestly garments, breastplates and the sacred service vessels like the golden Menorah, the golden table of the showbread, the golden incense altar, other gold and silver censors, the knives used for the animal sacrifices and the golden crown for the High Priest is ready.

    The word/cry going out by the Israeli security establishment and intelligent community is that if only more Jews would visit the Temple Mount on a regular basis the entire balance of power would be shifted and everyone’s attitude would be different if Israel takes responsibility for itself. In the last couple years there has been an awakening among many with a zeal and excitement – Yeshivas, elementary schools, high schools, families and groups with Rabbi’s is more accepted as mainstream. More and more are seeing this as a religious duty to pray and be seen by God on this holiest of land on planet earth.



    http://player.vimeo.com/video/37617298 - (Dare To Dream | Dare To Build – 2:01 min)
     
  13. yonah_mishael

    yonah_mishael הֱיֵה קודם כל בן אדם

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    That’s based in very late Christian eschatology. It has nothing to do with Jewish views of the Messiah. In the Jewish view of the Messiah, he first fights the wars of God and gets victory over the enemies of Israel. Then, only after victory has been obtained, the Messiah comes to Jerusalem to re-establish the Davidic throne and also to rebuild the Temple.
     
  14. WOFFED

    WOFFED Guest

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    Agree that both of your replies (above and previous reply) lines up more with some Jewish teaching that may not put as much faith in the inspired Truth of our Heavenly Father (HaShem) and His Son (Adonai) as found throughout the OT and NT (Gospels, the Epistles and the Book of Revelations).

    The future concept of the Abomination of Desolation (antichrist) defiling the Third Temple, before the Messiah returns, may not be accepted by some. It's understandable that some Messianic Jews may have serious reservations about the truthfulness of the inspired Word of Adonai throughout the New Testament.

    Some of the disputing on this forum isn't necessary once we understand that there may be more than one interpretation of: Messanic Judaism. Your replies point out the magnitude of differences one can encounter on this forum when discussing Messianic topics so be prepared to agree to disagree. It is unfortunate that some Messianic members don't put as much faith in the books of the New Testament as they do in the Torah/Tanakh, but then we must remember that some Messianic Gentiles don't put as much faith in the Old Covenant as they do in the New Covenant.

    http://player.vimeo.com/video/37617298 - (Dare To Dream | Dare To Build – 2:01 min)


     
  15. yedida

    yedida Ruth Messianic, joining Israel, Na'aseh v'nishma!

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    Woffed: Note that the Magen David represents religious/non-religious Jews, not Messianic Jews.
     
  16. pat34lee

    pat34lee Messianic

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    I don't believe that it will be constructed before he comes. The only thing that is necessary is the altar be in operation. They may try to build the rest or not.
     
  17. WOFFED

    WOFFED Guest

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    We have confidence that the Complete Holy Jewish Bible is all inclusive. Hopefully, we may encourage each other as we worship the same Heavenly Father. None of us have all the answers. Yonah's Magen David flag avatar, his Judaism faith badge and his replies as a resident of Rehovot, Israel provides beneficial insight for forum members.

    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    yonah mishael

    [​IMG]

    http://player.vimeo.com/video/37617298 - (Dare To Dream | Dare To Build – 2:01 min)
     
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