History has a way of repeating itself..

visionary

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In the other thread I have not even gotten near Dan 11:23-28 where Antiochus Ephiphanes shows up in prophecy.... but thought it is interesting that the day the UN approved Palestine as a state ... it was the 15th of Kislev - the same day that Antiochus Epiphanes in 164 BC desecrated the Temple in Jerusalem. It's amazing how events of significance repeat on the same days.....
 

yonah_mishael

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Do not forget that a shared goal of ALL of us should be the establishment of a Palestinian state and a free Palestinian people. Should we want anything other than this? It's problematic that it has come about as a result of the UN vote rather than as the result of negotiations between the parties, but such is the situation. What can we do about it now?

The problem is not that there is a recognized "Palestine" in the United Nations. The problem is that Hamas is still in control of Gaza. If all of Palestine were to yield to a unified government and follow Abu Mazen, it wouldn't be so bad.
 
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pat34lee

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Do not forget that a shared goal of ALL of us should be the establishment of a Palestinian state and a free Palestinian people. Should we want anything other than this? It's problematic that it has come about as a result of the UN vote rather than as the result of negotiations between the parties, but such is the situation. What can we do about it now?

The problem is not that there is a recognized "Palestine" in the United Nations. The problem is that Hamas is still in control of Gaza. If all of Palestine were to yield to a unified government and follow Abu Mazen, it wouldn't be so bad.

Originally Israel was drawn up to include trans-Jordan. The British broke it up so that the Arabs got the larger half (the original 2-state solution). Jordan then expelled any Jews living there, as did several other Arab countries. Israel made the mistake of letting the Arabs stay in or return to their land at that time and several times afterward. If they had started with a clean slate, they could then welcome back any Arabs that wanted to live there as Israeli citizens.
 
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Lulav

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Do not forget that a shared goal of ALL of us should be the establishment of a Palestinian state and a free Palestinian people. Should we want anything other than this? It's problematic that it has come about as a result of the UN vote rather than as the result of negotiations between the parties, but such is the situation. What can we do about it now?

The problem is not that there is a recognized "Palestine" in the United Nations. The problem is that Hamas is still in control of Gaza. If all of Palestine were to yield to a unified government and follow Abu Mazen, it wouldn't be so bad.

Am I understanding you correctly? Give the land of Israel to the ancient Philistines? :eek:
 
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yedida

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Somewhere, in my foggy memory, do I recall that there was a curse or a rather harsh retribution coming to those that would divide Israel/Jerusalem? Perhaps I'm not remembering correctly.

Anyone have such a recollection? Bugs me I don't remember at the moment.

Senior golden years. BAH!!


My understanding is that the Land does not belong to the Jews but it has been given to them to cultivate and hold for Hashem. The whole earth, of course, is His, but Israel is special to Him, just as the keepers of the Land are. They were not to sell the Land, I remember that. I would imagine that giving it away falls along the same lines - it's not really theirs to sell or give away - it's His. And He's made it perfectly clear what He wants done with it - the Jews are to maintain it till He comes to reign from Jerusalem.
 
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xDenax

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I'm just stating what's in the Tanakh. He says it's His.

That is exactly what I am talking about. We don't need to go around saying "Well, this is in the Bible so the land belongs to so and so". This gets people killed. This does not lead to peace. This makes us look like jerks. There needs to be open communication and compromise without trying to use God to get our way. If God wants things to go a certain way then let him do it. For now human beings are going to have to sort out their differences and make things work without declaring any one side winner via their holy book. It is the only way we will get anywhere.
 
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visionary

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That is exactly what I am talking about. We don't need to go around saying "Well, this is in the Bible so the land belongs to so and so". This gets people killed. This does not lead to peace. This makes us look like jerks. There needs to be open communication and compromise without trying to use God to get our way. If God wants things to go a certain way then let him do it. For now human beings are going to have to sort out their differences and make things work without declaring any one side winner via their holy book. It is the only way we will get anywhere.
It is already a holy war... and no amount of communication is going to change the theology on either side on this matter. The two sides [actually three] have made claims that will remain until God stands up and declares it is His and will be where He will set up His Throne here on earth.
 
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yonah_mishael

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It is already a holy war... and no amount of communication is going to change the theology on either side on this matter. The two sides [actually three] have made claims that will remain until God stands up and declares it is His and will be where He will set up His Throne here on earth.

I understand that you like to think this way because of your apocalyptic attitudes and belief in visions and the end of the world, but the rest of us do not want to wait until we have an all-out nuclear war before saying that these religious claims to the land and hopes for divine intervention are not enough. The world will blow itself up and leave no one behind because of opinions like what you've just expressed.
 
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visionary

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I understand that you like to think this way because of your apocalyptic attitudes and belief in visions and the end of the world, but the rest of us do not want to wait until we have an all-out nuclear war before saying that these religious claims to the land and hopes for divine intervention are not enough. The world will blow itself up and leave no one behind because of opinions like what you've just expressed.
True....:wave:.. except for the last sentence.
 
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Do not forget that a shared goal of ALL of us should be the establishment of a Palestinian state and a free Palestinian people. Should we want anything other than this?

The problem is not that there is a recognized "Palestine" in the United Nations. The problem is that Hamas is still in control of Gaza. If all of Palestine were to yield to a unified government and follow Abu Mazen, it wouldn't be so bad.

If any of us lived in Rehovot or Tel Aviv-Yafo with school-age children and relatives wouldn't many of us also be willing to sacrifice land for PEACE. It doesn't help that there are about five different Jewish views ranging from Secular to Ultra-Orthodox. We know that the Secular populous of Tel Aviv is willing to sacrifce land for Peace. It's a very dicey chess game to say the least. Assume at least three of the five may be inclined to sacrifice land (Palestinian State) for Peace. It's easy to be an armchair Quarterback when you're not being targeted.


As LittleLambofJesus would say, "Those that think they know it all, annoy us who do know it all" or paraphrased "Those that think they know it all, annoy us who don't know it all."

Let us listen and consider Yonah's frontline perspective.
 
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ContraMundum

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Do not forget that a shared goal of ALL of us should be the establishment of a Palestinian state and a free Palestinian people. Should we want anything other than this? It's problematic that it has come about as a result of the UN vote rather than as the result of negotiations between the parties, but such is the situation. What can we do about it now?

The problem is not that there is a recognized "Palestine" in the United Nations. The problem is that Hamas is still in control of Gaza. If all of Palestine were to yield to a unified government and follow Abu Mazen, it wouldn't be so bad.


I understand this, but the sad thing is that the UN could be so short-sighted. Now, we hear today that Abbas wants to bury the hatchet with Hamas. This means that potentially in the future we could find a unified Palestinian state with an elected Hamas government. Based on the Hamas stated purpose of destroying Israel, this would make any peaceful co-existance impossible. There can be no recoginised Palestinian state until peace and security are guaranteed- and that means the rejection and dismantling of radical Islamist parties and the de-programming of the victims of their campaign of anti-semitic and anti-West propaganda. But, I'm sure you have a far better handle on this than I. I'm happy to learn more and that is one reason I fight so hard to try to keep an open mind on this.
 
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ContraMundum

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I understand that you like to think this way because of your apocalyptic attitudes and belief in visions and the end of the world, but the rest of us do not want to wait until we have an all-out nuclear war before saying that these religious claims to the land and hopes for divine intervention are not enough. The world will blow itself up and leave no one behind because of opinions like what you've just expressed.

Agreed. The big problem with religious nuts is that they don't have much faith in their God(s), despite their incessant nagging about how much they know and love Him and how no one else has enough faith.

Simply put- if God wants you to live somewhere- what do you need guns to make it a reality for? The whole "God gave us this land and we'll blow your head off if you think otherwise" shows an amazing lack of faith in God's own providence. This goes for Jews and Muslims equally.

For Muslims: If "Allah" didn't want the Jews there, Israel wouldn't exist, would it? No point trying to blow them all up then, is there? Likewise, if HaShem is returning the Jews to the Land, why do people have to cheat people out of their homes and land to acquire what God has given?

Obviously, God is in this, because Israel exists and that's a fact that the world has to live with. However, if land is being taken by theft or any other violation of the Law, then God's name is being defamed. Agree on the borders and be honest with it, I say.
 
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Am I understanding you correctly? Give the land of Israel to the ancient Philistines? :eek:

The Arabs that live there who are now called "Palestinians" are most likely not all related with the Philistines. In fact, I read recently that something like 86% have Jewish DNA mixed in there!

More below...

My understanding is that the Land does not belong to the Jews but it has been given to them to cultivate and hold for Hashem. The whole earth, of course, is His, but Israel is special to Him, just as the keepers of the Land are. They were not to sell the Land, I remember that. I would imagine that giving it away falls along the same lines - it's not really theirs to sell or give away - it's His. And He's made it perfectly clear what He wants done with it - the Jews are to maintain it till He comes to reign from Jerusalem.

This kind of thing completely takes God's authority out of the picture. All things on the planet happen with God's permisison and according to His plan. So, if the Arabs are there, then the Arabs are there. If He wanted the "Jews to maintain it until He comes to reign from Jerusalem", then He's done a lousy job. Seems to me that He pretty much wanted the majority of Jews out of there for nearly 2000 years!

I think perhaps a re-evaluation of such an eschatology could be in order. Might also be worth taking a look at how God's sovereignty is understood too. :)

Nice to see you using capitals when referencing God. This is good, and everyone should be doing it.
 
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yedida

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The Arabs that live there who are now called "Palestinians" are most likely not all related with the Philistines. In fact, I read recently that something like 86% have Jewish DNA mixed in there!

More below...



This kind of thing completely takes God's authority out of the picture. All things on the planet happen with God's permisison and according to His plan. So, if the Arabs are there, then the Arabs are there. If He wanted the "Jews to maintain it until He comes to reign from Jerusalem", then He's done a lousy job. Seems to me that He pretty much wanted the majority of Jews out of there for nearly 2000 years!

I think perhaps a re-evaluation of such an eschatology could be in order. Might also be worth taking a look at how God's sovereignty is understood too. :)

Nice to see you using capitals when referencing God. This is good, and everyone should be doing it.

I'm talking about now, He's bringing His people back to the Land. Those who are there, Arabs, whoever, should be allowed to stay. But divide the Land for a Palestinian state? That shouldn't be.
Eschatologically, what's gonna be is gonna be. But a Palestinian state? Nooooo! Unless it's in Iran, Iraq, or somewhere else ;)
 
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visionary

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No matter how anyone looks and views Israel, Jerusalem, and the land, it will be the theme of the many conflicts because God put His finger there and declared it His for His children. Now what different children of God read into this declarations is up for many interpretations and understandings. The very fact, that since 1948, "Israel" is back on the map as a country for Jews has re-arranged and caused reconsiderations for those who search the scriptures to see what God says about this. It paints a different picture than what was thought before 1948 when "Israel" was read in scripture by many congregations. When 1967 war happened and in six days was over with a great victory for Israel, the world took notice. Then the campaign whether in propoganda or through political channels to surrender land or war at the borders, inspired by jhad became more global. For we know if Israel lays down its weapons, jhad would see sugar plums dancing. We know that if jhad laid down its weapons, the whole world would experience less tension and stress over wars and rumors of wars.
 
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Qnts2

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Originally Israel was drawn up to include trans-Jordan. The British broke it up so that the Arabs got the larger half (the original 2-state solution). Jordan then expelled any Jews living there, as did several other Arab countries. Israel made the mistake of letting the Arabs stay in or return to their land at that time and several times afterward. If they had started with a clean slate, they could then welcome back any Arabs that wanted to live there as Israeli citizens.

I agree with part but disagree that the Arabs should have been expelled from Israel.

I just want to re-iterate the historical land division.

With the Balfour agreement, Israel was to receive land which at that time was owned by Britain. During WW2, England negotiated with both the Arabs and the Jewish people to gain favors in fighting the war. The piece of land included modern day Jordan and Israel. After the war, England had promised the land to both groups but in negotiations broke it up with what was then called Trans-Jordan being the bigger piece and Israel smaller but with access to the sea.

During the 'U.N.' negotiations for the land division, and interesting thing occurred. The entire land was referred to by England as Palestine. The Jewish people living there called themselves Palestinian Jews (much like Jewish people living in France call themselves French Jews). The Arabs were arguing against the Jewish people receiving any of the land, and their argument was that there was no such thing as Palestinians so there were no 'Palestinian Jews'. Times certainly do change.

Anyway, the Arabs and Jews living in the land, Jordan was given to the Arabs (Trans-Jordan) first, and later the Jewish people received Israel. The Jewish people were pressured to move out of Trans-Jordan. The Arabs encouraged all Arabic people to move out of Israel, as they planned an immediate attack. They promised the people that if they moved out, to clear the way, they would get all of the land when the Arabs were victorious, so many Arabs did move out of Israel. Some stayed. When the war was lost, Arafat, who lived in the Arab section, Trans-Jordan, continually pressured Jordan to declare war against Israel. He protested. The King of Jordan offered to share rulership with Arafat, but Arafat refused and continued making trouble. Jordan assisted Arafat to move to the west back later, to get rid of all of the headaches and trouble.

So, in reality, the so-called Palestinians did receive land already.

Now for the other issue.

In History, the Jewish people were forced out of their homes in various countries. They sometimes were forced to move with very little notification and often as winter approached, so many died traveling looking for a new place to live. With this fresh in the Jewish minds, the last thing the Jewish people want to do is to be the ones who force others out of their homes, claiming the home and land and leaving other destitute. So, any Arab who wanted to remain in the land, was not forced out but allowed to stay in their homes. This was the only right thing to do.
 
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