Historicity of the change of the Sabbath Commandment

[BABerean2]

Old Covenant/ New Covenant/ The Sabbath

 

[bbbbbbb]

There are 1050 commands in the NT - are you opposed to them?

https://www.cai.org/bible-studies/1050-new-testament-commands

Do you oppose the OT as being "scripture"?? Does your bible have 66 books, 27?? 5?

Oddly enough, my Bible has five books known as the Penteteuch a.k.a. the Law in its OT but no comparable books delineating the NT Law. Perhaps you have another Bible with additional books of the NT Law which, if kept perfectly, will ensure your salvation.

 

[BobRyan]

All the other of the ten are repeated in the NT for Gentiles. But Gentiles are told by Paul that it is okay to esteem all days alike.

Not the command about not taking the Lord's Name in vain - that is never quoted even in part - at all in the NT - for anyone.

 

[BobRyan]

Perhaps, then, you might answer a recurring question that comes to mind. Why is it that you are opposed to 603 of the commandments of God?

There are 1050 commands in the NT - are you opposed to them?

https://www.cai.org/bible-studies/1050-new-testament-commands

Do you oppose the OT as being "scripture"?? Does your bible have 66 books, 27?? 5?

Oddly enough, my Bible has five books known as the Penteteuch

1. is that where you find the 1050 commands in the NT???
2. In any case - I am glad your Bible does contain more than a few books in the NT.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Old Covenant/ New Covenant/ The Sabbath

I clicked on your link and found this - on the ending page

 

[BobRyan]

All the other of the ten are repeated in the NT for Gentiles. But Gentiles are told by Paul that it is okay to esteem all days alike.

In Rom 14 Paul says that "one many observes one day above another - another man observes them all -" -- the word "alike" is not in the text.

In Gal 4 Paul flatly condemns any Christians that would dare to observe even one of the pagan holy days.

2 Thessalonians 3:10 - "if a man will not work neither let him eat" - Paul would not "allow" a gentile to rest and keep holy every day - Paul would have that man starve.

The "all" of Romans 14 - is ALL of the days listed in the actual Bible - in Lev 23.

 

[BobRyan]

Which brings us back to this -


Leo Trese in his book "The Faith Explained" -- commentary on the Baltimore Catechism after Vatican II -

The Faith Explained (an RC commentary on the Baltimore catechism post Vatican ii) states on Page 242 that
====================begin short summary
changing the Lord's day to Sunday was in the power of the church since "in the gospels ..Jesus confers upon his church the power to make laws in his name".

page 243

"Nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day From Saturday to Sunday. We know of the change only from the tradition of the Church - a fact handed down to us...that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many Non-Catholics, who say that they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and Yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church"

====================================== begin expanded quote
. (from "The Faith Explained" page 243

"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day - which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church
================================================

One Catholic poster on this section of the board describes it this way.

Open Heart said: ↑
It is the transferring of the solemnity of the Sabbath to the Lord's Day (Sunday).

I know you don't like it that we did this. That's fine.

 

[Meowzltov]

Not the command about not taking the Lord's Name in vain - that is never quoted even in part - at all in the NT - for anyone.

Then I guess it's okay for me to say Sheeze Louise. Wait! My mother disapproves. I still am in it for honoring my parents.

 

[Meowzltov]

In Rom 14 Paul says that "one many observes one day above another - another man observes them all -" -- the word "alike" is not in the text.

One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. Romans 14:5 New International Version

 

[Meowzltov]

In Gal 4 Paul flatly condemns any Christians that would dare to observe even one of the pagan holy days.

I don't worship "SUN-day." I worship the LORD's day," which simply happens to be on the same calendar day, much like the Sabbath happens to be on SATURN's day.

 

[Meowzltov]

2 Thessalonians 3:10 - "if a man will not work neither let him eat" - Paul would not "allow" a gentile to rest and keep holy every day - Paul would have that man starve.

I think you are misinterpreting Paul. If I work all year long and have a week's vacation, I'm am still a laborer. You can work, and do things on each day to make it holy such as light candles, say special prayers, cook special meals... It doesn't have to be a day of rest to be holy. (Although truthfully, those who claim they keep every day holy really do NOT do anything to make a time within those days holy.)

 

[BobRyan]

One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. Romans 14:5 New International Version

Indeed the word "alike" is not in the text. One man observes one day ABOVE another - while another observes every day.

And of course that means "Every day in the list of holy days approved of by the Bible" -- Lev 23 - and not 'everyone of the pagan days condemned in Gal 4" -- so then - context is everything.

 

[BobRyan]

In Rom 14 Paul says that "one many observes one day above another - another man observes them all -" -- the word "alike" is not in the text.

In Gal 4 Paul flatly condemns any Christians that would dare to observe even one of the pagan holy days.

2 Thessalonians 3:10 - "if a man will not work neither let him eat" - Paul would not "allow" a gentile to rest and keep holy every day - Paul would have that man starve.

The "all" of Romans 14 - is ALL of the days listed in the actual Bible - in Lev 23.

I think you are misinterpreting Paul. If I work all year long and have a week's vacation, I'm am still a laborer. You can work, and do things on each day to make it holy such as light candles

Not in the actual Bible. In the actual Bible the observance of a day as Holy unto the Lord - as we see in Lev 23 involves not working.

Rom 14 "He who observes the day - observes it unto the LORD"

And in Gal 4 that is "condemned" if you are observing one of the pagan days.

Gal 4
8 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods. 9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain.


Rom 14

Rom 14 NASB
5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day (alike[/i] inserted here by some translators). Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.

Jamieson Fausset, Brown – on Romans 14

the Church here, in spite of thy censures.

5. One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day--The supplement "alike" should be omitted, as injuring the sense.
Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind--be guided in such matters by conscientious conviction.

6. He that regardeth the day, regardeth it to the Lord--the Lord CHRIST, as before.
and he . . . not, to the Lord he doth not--each doing what he believes to be the Lord's will.
He that earth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks--The one gave thanks to God for the flesh which the other scrupled to use; the other did the same for the herbs to which, for conscience' sake, he restricted himself. From this passage about the observance of days, ALFORD unhappily infers that such language could not have been used if the sabbath law had been in force under the Gospel in any form. Certainly it could not, if the sabbath were merely one of the Jewish festival days; but it will not do to take this for granted merely because it was observed under the Mosaic economy. And certainly, if the sabbath was more ancient than Judaism; if, even under Judaism, it was enshrined among the eternal sanctities of the Decalogue, uttered, as no other parts of Judaism were, amidst the terrors of Sinai; and if the Lawgiver Himself said of it when on earth, "The Son of man is LORD EVEN OF THE SABBATH DAY" (see Mr 2:28) --it will be hard to show that the apostle must have meant it to be ranked by his readers among those vanished Jewish festival days, which only "weakness" could imagine to be still in force--a weakness which those who had more light ought, out of love, merely to bear with.

http://eword.gospelcom.net/comments/romans/jfb/romans14.htm

John Wesley admits that this is a reference to the Lev 23 list of annual feast days –

Wesley

Verse 5. One day above another - As new moons, and other Jewish festivals. Let every man be fully persuaded - That a thing is lawful, before he does it.

Verse 6. Regardeth it to the Lord - That is, out of a principle of conscience toward God. To the Lord he doth not regard it - He also acts from a principle of conscience. He that eateth not - Flesh. Giveth God thanks - For his herbs.
http://eword.gospelcom.net/comments/romans/wesley/romans14.htm

 

[BobRyan]

All the other of the ten are repeated in the NT for Gentiles. But Gentiles are told by Paul that it is okay to esteem all days alike.

Not the command about not taking the Lord's Name in vain - that is never quoted even in part - at all in the NT - for anyone.

Then I guess it's okay for me to say Sheeze Louise. Wait! My mother disapproves. I still am in it for honoring my parents.

The reason that you cannot take God's name in vain even though that commandment is never quoted - not even in part - in the NT - is because there is no such rule in the Bible saying 'whatever is not repeated can be deleted' - AND because in James 2 - the binding authority of the commandment is based on the "HE WHO SAID" - not in the "tradition that deletes".

In the Bible the UNIT of LAW that is still binding on mankind includes the one where 'Honor your father and mother is the FIRST commandment with a promise" -- the TEN Commandments.

 

[Meowzltov]

Indeed the word "alike" is not in the text. One man observes one day ABOVE another - while another observes every day.

One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. NEW INTERNATIONAL VERSION

In the same way, some think one day is more holy than another day, while others think every day is alike. You should each be fully convinced that whichever day you choose is acceptable. NEW LIVING TRANSLATION

One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. ENGLISH STANDARD VERSION

One man regards a certain day above the others, while someone else considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. BEREAN STUDY BIBLE

For indeed one judges a day to be above another day, but one judges every day alike. Let each be fully assured in his own mind. BEREAN LITERAL BIBLE

One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. NEW AMERICAN STANDARD BIBLE

One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. KING JAMES VERSION

I think I've made a darn good case.

But less me be insanely generous and leave out the word alike. IT MEANS THE SAME THING.

 

[Meowzltov]

And of course that means "Every day in the list of holy days approved of by the Bible" -- Lev 23 - and not 'everyone of the pagan days condemned in Gal 4" -- so then - context is everything.

If the "days" it is referring to are only the approved holy days of the Bible, who are the people who keep only ONE of those days, which one is it, and why is that ok? I have some guesses what you might say, but I'll wait till you actually reply.

 

[Meowzltov]

In Rom 14 Paul says that "one many observes one day above another - another man observes them all -" -- the word "alike" is not in the text.

Okay this post included some of your source material, which enlightened me as to where you are coming from.

1. You have no translation that omits the word alike (or some equivalent). All you have is a commentary that suggests there should be a translation that omits alike.

2. You have the opinion of John Wesley that the days referred to in the verse are the Jewish holy days. That's one lone opinion in a sea of opinions that say it is referring to the days of the week. My earlier questions regarding this still stand, but I'll let you answer them in my other post.

 

[Meowzltov]

The reason that you cannot take God's name in vain even though that commandment is never quoted - not even in part - in the NT - is because there is no such rule in the Bible saying 'whatever is not repeated can be deleted' - AND because in James 2 - the binding authority of the commandment is based on the "HE WHO SAID" - not in the "tradition that deletes".

Then I suppose I should also refrain from mixing linen and wool in my clothing since there is no such rule in the Bible saying 'just keep the ten commandments and drop everything else.'

 

[BobRyan]

Then I suppose I should also refrain from mixing linen and wool in my clothing since there is no such rule in the Bible saying 'just keep the ten commandments and drop everything else.'

So then - you mix them?? I would miss seeing all those people walking around in linen shirts with wool "woven in" with the linen.

Or is this your way of saying that the commandment against taking God's name in vain - needs to be reconsidered because "deleted if not repeated" is a great new doctrine to "make up" -- among the doctrines "not in the Bible"???

 

[BobRyan]

In Rom 14 Paul says that "one many observes one day above another - another man observes them all -" -- the word "alike" is not in the text.

In Gal 4 Paul flatly condemns any Christians that would dare to observe even one of the pagan holy days.

2 Thessalonians 3:10 - "if a man will not work neither let him eat" - Paul would not "allow" a gentile to rest and keep holy every day - Paul would have that man starve.

The "all" of Romans 14 - is ALL of the days listed in the actual Bible - in Lev 23.

I think you are misinterpreting Paul. If I work all year long and have a week's vacation, I'm am still a laborer. You can work, and do things on each day to make it holy such as light candles

Not in the actual Bible. In the actual Bible the observance of a day as Holy unto the Lord - as we see in Lev 23 involves not working.

Rom 14 "He who observes the day - observes it unto the LORD"

And in Gal 4 that is "condemned" if you are observing one of the pagan days.

Gal 4
8 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods. 9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain.


Rom 14

Rom 14 NASB
5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day (alike[/i] inserted here by some translators). Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.

Jamieson Fausset, Brown – on Romans 14

the Church here, in spite of thy censures.

5. One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day--The supplement "alike" should be omitted, as injuring the sense.
Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind--be guided in such matters by conscientious conviction.

6. He that regardeth the day, regardeth it to the Lord--the Lord CHRIST, as before.
and he . . . not, to the Lord he doth not--each doing what he believes to be the Lord's will.
He that earth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks--The one gave thanks to God for the flesh which the other scrupled to use; the other did the same for the herbs to which, for conscience' sake, he restricted himself. From this passage about the observance of days, ALFORD unhappily infers that such language could not have been used if the sabbath law had been in force under the Gospel in any form. Certainly it could not, if the sabbath were merely one of the Jewish festival days; but it will not do to take this for granted merely because it was observed under the Mosaic economy. And certainly, if the sabbath was more ancient than Judaism; if, even under Judaism, it was enshrined among the eternal sanctities of the Decalogue, uttered, as no other parts of Judaism were, amidst the terrors of Sinai; and if the Lawgiver Himself said of it when on earth, "The Son of man is LORD EVEN OF THE SABBATH DAY" (see Mr 2:28) --it will be hard to show that the apostle must have meant it to be ranked by his readers among those vanished Jewish festival days, which only "weakness" could imagine to be still in force--a weakness which those who had more light ought, out of love, merely to bear with.

http://eword.gospelcom.net/comments/romans/jfb/romans14.htm

John Wesley admits that this is a reference to the Lev 23 list of annual feast days –

Wesley

Verse 5. One day above another - As new moons, and other Jewish festivals. Let every man be fully persuaded - That a thing is lawful, before he does it.

Verse 6. Regardeth it to the Lord - That is, out of a principle of conscience toward God. To the Lord he doth not regard it - He also acts from a principle of conscience. He that eateth not - Flesh. Giveth God thanks - For his herbs.
http://eword.gospelcom.net/comments/romans/wesley/romans14.htm

Okay this post included some of your source material, which enlightened me as to where you are coming from.

1. You have no translation that omits the word alike (or some equivalent).

I have a great many that place the word in italics indicating it was an 'insert" by the translators and is not actually "in the text". Perhaps you consider this to be an "inconvenient detail" -- I find it "instructive".

2. You have the opinion of John Wesley that the days referred to in the verse are the Jewish holy days. That's one lone opinion

Not in the real world. In the real world a great many pro-sunday Bible commentaries point to the days in Romans 14 as the approved list of days in Lev 23.

Jamieson Fausset, Brown
Matthew Henry – Rom 14:5

http://www.studylight.org/commentaries/mhn/view.cgi?bk=44&ch=14
The case as to the observance of days was much the same. Those who knew that all these things were done away by Christ's coming, took no notice of the festivals of the Jews.


Adam Clarke
http://www.studylight.org/commentaries/acc/view.cgi?bk=44&ch=14
Rom 14:5
One man esteemeth one day above another - Perhaps the word ἡμεραν, day, is here taken for time, festival, and such like, in which sense it is frequently used. Reference is made here to the Jewish institutions, and especially their festivals; such as the passover,


========================

And hence Paul forceful condemnation of any Christian that dares to "observe the days" of the pagans.

Gal 4
8 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods. 9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain.

Another "inconvenient detail"???[/quote]