Historicity of the change of the Sabbath Commandment

[bbbbbbb]

The Moral Law of God is not the same as the civil law applicable only to a theocracy - as even the "Baptist Confession of Faith" AND the "Westminster Confession of Faith" freely admit.

So also laws of ceremony, priests and sacrifice that are stated to be at an end in Heb 7 and 10.

Which brings us back to the much-to-be-feared-and-avoided two super easy questions.

Today at 11:08 AM #165

I remain perplexed as to why you, a member of the SDA, continually cite the confessions of Baptists and Presbyterians to myself, a non-denominational Christian who ascribes no value to confessions in general, and to a Catholic who, assuredly views the Baptists and Presbyterians in a dim light.

I am still awaiting your answer to my question as to where in all of the Bible a list of "moral" laws and a list of "immoral" laws are provided. I have not found such lists in my Bible, but, perhaps, your Bible is differen than mine or I have somehow missed the lists.

 

[Meowzltov]

until we read page 1 of this thread -- and see this regarding that same separation of laws as is found in 1 Cor 7:19

What does 1 Cor 7:19 have to do with the way the SDA pick and choose which of the 613 they follow? Gentiles are not bound by the 613. They are bound by Natural law, as was Adam and Noah, as was described by the Apostles in the New Testament. Noah was given everything to eat. He was not kosher and certainly not a vegetarian after the flood.

Not that you can't have other ethical reasons of compassion to be a vegatarian. You can go farther than the literal demands of scripture based on the principles of scripture, as we have done with slavery.

And you can have extremely delicious food as a vegetarian. I was hospitalized in an SDA hospital and I have to say that the food was the best thing about my stay.

 

[BobRyan]

What does 1 Cor 7:19 have to do with the way the SDA pick and choose which of the 613 they follow?

Step 1.. Read 1 Cor 7:19

 

[BobRyan]

New
BobRyan said: ↑
The Moral Law of God is not the same as the civil law applicable only to a theocracy - as even the "Baptist Confession of Faith" AND the "Westminster Confession of Faith" freely admit.

So also laws of ceremony, priests and sacrifice that are stated to be at an end in Heb 7 and 10.

Which brings us back to the much-to-be-feared-and-avoided two super easy questions.

Today at 11:08 AM #165

I remain perplexed as to why you, a member of the SDA, continually cite the confessions of Baptists and Presbyterians to myself, a non-denominational Christian who ascribes no value to confessions

1. Because I don't regard you as the only person on this board or the only person reading this thread.
2. Because it demonstrates "objectivity" when I show that even well known pro-sunday sources on the other side of the fence - will admit to certain Bible details in agreement with the statements I have made here - on some of the very points were some folks stumble as if 'only SDAs know that part of the Bible". I simply point out that this is not the case.

in general, and to a Catholic who, assuredly views the Baptists and Presbyterians in a dim light.

3. Because those evangelical sources AND the RCC documents I quote - AGREE on certain key basics regarding the "MORAL LAW" of God including the TEN Commandments and applying to all mankind in both OT and NT.

I am still awaiting your answer to my question as to where in all of the Bible a list of "moral" laws and a list of "immoral" laws are provided.

Hint - respond to the much-to-be-avoided two incredibly easy questions post details -- rather than avoiding it. It provides the answer.

Sunday at 11:08 AM #165

I have made this step - very very easy.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[bbbbbbb]

Bob,

As usual, you have failed to provide a list of "moral" commandments, not to mention a list of "immoral" commandments. What you, and your particular Baptist and Presbyterian friends, have done is build a house of cards on what is, at the very best, a possible implication you see in a couple of verses in Hebrews.

 

[Meowzltov]

Step 1.. Read 1 Cor 7:19

Why do you think I have not? Don't be so insulting. Now answer the question.

 

[BABerean2]

I remain perplexed as to why you, a member of the SDA, continually cite the confessions of Baptists and Presbyterians to myself, a non-denominational Christian who ascribes no value to confessions in general, and to a Catholic who, assuredly views the Baptists and Presbyterians in a dim light.

He does it because those groups have also committed the same error by claiming that the New Covenant of Jer. 31 and Heb. 8, is a "New Administration" of the Sinai covenant. In other words, it is not really "New".

They ignore the text that says is would not be like the Sinai covenant, which they broke.

These groups also apply the Sinai covenant to Adam before the fall, even though Adam could not have committed adultery, nor honored his mother.

The Sabbath is the Sign of the Sinai covenant, just as circumcision is the sign of the Abrahamic covenant.

In order to keep their Sabbath doctrine they must commit the theological error of substituting the Sinai covenant in place of the Promise to Abraham found in Gal 3:16-29.

Because of transgressions, the law was added 430 years "after" the Promise to Abraham, "until" the Seed (Christ) could come.
These concepts are plainly written in the Book of Galatians. However, they are ignored by the Sabbath keepers in order to make their doctrine work.

If you are in-Christ, then the Sabbath-rest is inside of you every day of the week, every moment of the day.

He is in me and I am in Him.

We are resting from our work, because He has done the work that we could not do for ourselves on the Cross.

.

 

[BobRyan]

Why do you think I have not? Don't be so insulting. Now answer the question.

It looks like you have not read it - when you keep asking the question that is answered in 1Cor 7:19 - where the distinction between laws is specifically in the text.

The same bible detail noticed by so many pro-sunday scholars such as Spurgeon, Moody, "the Westminster Confession of Faith", Matthew Henry, and even your own Dies Domini.

 

[BobRyan]

He does it because those groups have also committed the same error by claiming that the New Covenant of Jer. 31 and Heb. 8, is a "New Administration" of the Sinai covenant. In other words, it is not really "New".

They ignore the text that says is would not be like the Sinai covenant, which they broke.

These groups also apply the Sinai covenant to Adam before the fall, even though Adam could not have committed adultery, nor honored his mother.

In real life none of them say that. What they do say is that the SAME moral law of God - applies in all ages.. it is the one that Paul also confirms in Romans 7 as that which defines what sin is-- so also does James 2 confirm that fact.

Details.

The Sabbath is the Sign of the Sinai covenant, just as circumcision is the sign of the Abrahamic covenant.

Moses tells the Jews at Sinai that "Abraham kept God's statutes laws and commandments" Gen 26:5

In order to keep their Sabbath doctrine they must commit the theological error of substituting the Sinai covenant in place of the Promise to Abraham

Well not according to Gal 3 - where we are told that the LAW of God is not in conflict with the promises of God - they are not competing Gospels. Because under the Gospel - the Jer 31:31-33 LAW is "written on the mind and heart"

here is what the commandment oposers skip.

Gal 3
17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. 18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.

The Abrahamic covenant was still valid all during the time of Israel - and Sinai - it was not deleted/invalidated by Sinai because the LAW of Sinai is not "another gospel" - a competing Gospel. The moral law of God - defines what sin is - according to Romans 7 - and always did. That never changed.

If you are in-Christ, then the Sabbath-rest is inside of you every day of the week, every moment of the day.

We have only "you" as our source for that quote. No bible text says it.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob,

As usual, you have failed to provide a list of "moral" commandments, not to mention a list of "immoral" commandments. What you, and your particular Baptist and Presbyterian friends, have done is build a house of cards on what is, at the very best, a possible implication you see in a couple of verses in Hebrews.

Which brings us back to the much-to-be-feared-and-avoided two super easy questions.

Today at 11:08 AM #165

Instead of avoiding it - answer it then you don't have to keep posting as if that answer to your question did not exist.

 

[Meowzltov]

It looks like you have not read it - when you keep asking the question that is answered in 1Cor 7:19 - where the distinction between laws is specifically in the text.

You are using this to avoid answering the question. I am loosing respect for you.

 

[BobRyan]

So then avoiding the "fluff" of ad hominem attacks --

Let's make it easy ---

All efforts to oppose the Commandments of God can be resolved by answering this simple question

===========================


If you oppose the Commandments of God in NT times - then answer this question -

In Eph 6:2 - "honor your father and mother for this is the first commandment with a promise" -- what Law - what unit of Law is it to be found that 'honor your father and mother" is the FIRST commandment with a promise??

First commandment where?

========================= next

having provided the obvious answer to that question - the next point is addressed by Mark 7 declaring that God's law cannot be edited/changed by church tradition.

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

======================= hence the answer to the OP

-------------------------------
BobRyan said: ↑
Ex 20:8-11 says the 7th day is a day of rest.
Lev 23:1-4 says it is reserved as a day of worship and is kept from sunset Friday to sundown Saturday evening.
Is 66:23 says it is to be a day of worship for "All mankind to come before Me and worship".
Mark 2:27 says it was 'made for mankind'
Rev 14:7 says to "WORSHIP Him who MADE the heavens and the earth the seas and all that is in them"
Rev 14:12 says the saints "keep the Commandments of God and their faith in Jesus"

So it is possible that you want to keep Sabbath because you know you are part of "mankind"

 

[BobRyan]

As we saw in the OP -- Oct 8, 2015 #1

One Catholic Author - of a commentary on the Baltimore Catechism - after Vatican II describes it this way

=========================

Leo Trese in his book "The Faith Explained" -- commentary on the Baltimore Catechism after Vatican II -

The Faith Explained (an RC commentary on the Baltimore catechism post Vatican ii) states on Page 242 that
====================begin short summary
changing the Lord's day to Sunday was in the power of the church since "in the gospels ..Jesus confers upon his church the power to make laws in his name".

page 243

"Nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day From Saturday to Sunday. We know of the change only from the tradition of the Church - a fact handed down to us...that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many Non-Catholics, who say that they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and Yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church"

====================================== begin expanded quote
. (from "The Faith Explained" page 243

"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day - which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church
================================================

One Catholic poster on this section of the board describes it this way.

Open Heart said: ↑
It is the transferring of the solemnity of the Sabbath to the Lord's Day (Sunday).

I know you don't like it that we did this. That's fine.

 

[BABerean2]

The Old Covenant/ the New Covenant/ and the Sabbath

 

[BobRyan]

- D.L. Moody notices that some are opposed to the Sabbath Commandment - but notice how this sermon on the TEN Commandments also fits the summary of 7 points listed here on page 1??

http://www.fbinstitute.com/moody/The_TenCommandments_Text.html

BY THE
DWIGHT L. MOODY
The Ten Commandments:
Exodus 20:2-17
.
The Fourth Commandment


Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: for in six days the LORD made heaven and Earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath Day, and hallowed it.​

[FONT=&quot]THERE HAS BEEN an awful letting-down in this country regarding the Sabbath during the last twenty-five years, and many a man has been shorn of spiritual power, like Samson, because he is not straight on this question. Can you say that you observe the Sabbath properly? You may be a professed Christian: are you obeying this commandment? Or do you neglect the house of God on the Sabbath day, and spend your time drinking and carousing in places of vice and crime, showing contempt for God and His law? Are you ready to step into the scales? Where were you last Sabbath? How did you spend it?

I honestly believe that this commandment is just as binding today as it ever was. I have talked with men who have said that it has been abrogated, but they have never been able to point to any place in the Bible where God repealed it. When Christ was on earth, He did nothing to set it aside; He freed it from the traces under which the scribes and Pharisees had put it, and gave it its true place.
"The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27)
It is just as practicable and as necessary for men today as it ever was- in fact, more than ever, because we live in such an intense age.

The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes;

------------------------------------------



Hint - Moody was not SDA... neither was C.H. Spurgeon... neither the "Westminster Confession of Faith" -- neither the RCC. Your own pro-sunday sources refute the attack you make against God's Law.

 

[BABerean2]

Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
.

 

[bbbbbbb]

So then avoiding the "fluff" of ad hominem attacks --

Let's make it easy ---

All efforts to oppose the Commandments of God can be resolved by answering this simple question

===========================


If you oppose the Commandments of God in NT times - then answer this question -

In Eph 6:2 - "honor your father and mother for this is the first commandment with a promise" -- what Law - what unit of Law is it to be found that 'honor your father and mother" is the FIRST commandment with a promise??

First commandment where?

========================= next

having provided the obvious answer to that question - the next point is addressed by Mark 7 declaring that God's law cannot be edited/changed by church tradition.

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

======================= hence the answer to the OP

-------------------------------
BobRyan said: ↑
Ex 20:8-11 says the 7th day is a day of rest.
Lev 23:1-4 says it is reserved as a day of worship and is kept from sunset Friday to sundown Saturday evening.
Is 66:23 says it is to be a day of worship for "All mankind to come before Me and worship".
Mark 2:27 says it was 'made for mankind'
Rev 14:7 says to "WORSHIP Him who MADE the heavens and the earth the seas and all that is in them"
Rev 14:12 says the saints "keep the Commandments of God and their faith in Jesus"

So it is possible that you want to keep Sabbath because you know you are part of "mankind"

Perhaps, then, you might answer a recurring question that comes to mind. Why is it that you are opposed to 603 of the commandments of God?

 

[BobRyan]

There are 1050 commands in the NT - are you opposed to them?

https://www.cai.org/bible-studies/1050-new-testament-commands

Do you oppose the OT as being "scripture"?? Does your bible have 66 books, 27?? 5?

 

[BobRyan]

Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

.

So many people fail to read that and "get the point" that the LAW was perfectly compatible with the Gospel in OT and in Romans 3:19-21 - just as the "Westminster Confession of Faith" also states.

 

[Meowzltov]

All efforts to oppose the Commandments of God can be resolved by answering this simple question

All the other of the ten are repeated in the NT for Gentiles. But Gentiles are told by Paul that it is okay to esteem all days alike.