Historicism - The Reformers eschatology

[Barney2.0]

Equivocation fallacy. The papacy came later in the history of the Catholic Church, among other developments.

As an aside I'll offer a Scripture and a thought:

Matthew 24:24 “For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

The clause IF tells me it is not possible to deceive the elect, not because of anything special in them, but because of God, and His Spirit working in them. The "s" of "christs" and "s" of "prophets" at least in English is not singular but plural, meaning more than one. Now on to the main point, these false christs and false prophets are of such character, such an influence, so intoxicating, were it possible they would deceive the elect like the rest. Finally the word "rise", indicates power, which gives influence, and signs and wonders have an intoxicating effect. So considering the centrality of Catholicism to EO and every main Protestant denomination in the history and development of the Church, I would expect satan to be in history, "the prince of the power of the air", so I would not rule out the office of the papacy, indeed is there a more prominent place from which to wreck massive deception in Christiandom?

Be that as it may, I am not an anti-Catholic, not even close, and have no problem thinking of myself as a Reformed Catholic.

Well yes the current form of the papacy was a man made creation it had nothing to do with what Christ taught or did. I’m merely answering his original claim in which he said Satan counteracted God’s original plan.

 

[Barney2.0]

Whatever schism the papacy may have been in did nothing to curb its continuing abuse and apostasy. The Reformers recognized that it was beyond reclamation.

If the Reformers thought that identifying the apostate papacy as antichrist, and as a fulfillment of the prophecies in Daniel 7, 2 Thessalonians 2, et al; would get them high places in the church; they were obviously suffering from a misapprehension.

They in fact labored under no such illusion, instead recognizing the vision, faith, and sacrifice which they knew would be necessary for emancipation from the bondage of the Church's spiritual dark ages.

By God's grace and mercy, they were successful; and we today are the beneficiaries.

Thanks be to God for the Reformers and the Reformation.

These are the same reformers who invented doctrines of their own like Sola Scriptura etc. The reformers came out of a heretical Church and remained heretical, not much of a change, some could argue it went from bad to worse.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Supposedly, Saint Dominic converted all of Rome to Christianity in the third century AD.

are you telling everyone to doubt the sincerity of Christian conversion of those who claim to be Christian?

If one can't trust "Christians" in Rome, who can be trusted?

I have no problem identifying with St. Augustine, what does that tell you? And as for St. Dominic converting all of Rome, well that rings similar to the claim that America is a "Christian nation", which is hilarious on the surface. But more than that, it is God who converts sinners, not Saints. I think it is quite another thing to say St. Dominic was highly influential to Christianity in Rome. Finally, I used the term "office" without naming any names for reasons.

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

If anyone wants to comment and share ideas about the below, please go ahead!:

A short summary on the history of the Antichrist:

Warning: This is an extremely condensed summary of the fulfillment of Bible Prophecy about the Antichrist in history during the last 2000 years. There are way more details in Revelation that where perfectly accomplished in History that are not part of this summary.

For complete details, please refer to:

“Romanism and the Protestant reformation from the stand point of prophecy” – Henry Grattan Guinness

“Horae Apocalypticae” – Edward Bishop Elliot

Summary:

312AD – Constantine (a politician) declares Christianity the religion of the Roman Empire and the clay (the believers, Isaiah 64:8) mixes with the Iron (Rome) – Fulfilling Daniel 2:33. The great apostasy of II Tess. 2 starts for many compromise the faith for power and prestige.

476AD – Western Roman Empire falls – 10 kingdoms raise from that fall – the 10 fingers of clay and Iron of Daniel 2 and the 10 horns of Daniel 7:24, Revelation 13 and 17. The only leadership position left standing from the former empire is the Bishop of Rome, the little horn.

533AD – Justinian (a politician) declares the primacy of the Bishop of Rome – The little horn of Daniel 7:8 gains power.

538AD – After delivering the city of Rome from the Ostrogoth, Justinian decree is enforced in Rome – Antichrist (Papacy) is set in power at Rome. 2 Tess. 2:4 fulfilled. The Ostrogoth were the last one of the three horns (the other two where the Herulli and the Vandals) that the little horn would destroy in its rising according to the prophecy in Daniel 7:8.

1590AD – Pope become the False Prophet of Revelation 13 when they create a false interpretation of Daniel 9:27 (antichrist in a 7 year tribulation in the future) to hide the fact, preached by Protestants, that the history of the papacy fulfills everything that is told in the bible about the antichrist and therefore the papacy is the Antichrist foretold by Daniel, Paul and John.

1798AD – Napoleon arrests the Pope and seize his properties, inflicting the mortal wound to the first Beast (Europe dominated by the Pope) of Rev. 13. The 1st beast of revelation 13 reigns exactly 1260 years (42 prophetic months, 538 - 1798) as the prophecy states in Rev. 13:5.

1929AD – The mortal wound is healed and the Vatican becomes once again a country in which the king is the pope – the beast is healed but this time clothes itself like the Lamb Jesus (piety and humble) but continues to speak like the devil (false/against Christ doctrines).

1954AD – The False Prophet of Revelation 13(the Pope) starts creating the image of the previous beast – The European Union as foretold in Revelation 13

Present – Under the unified leadership of the Popery three powers - the economic powers of Europe (Dragon), the political powers of the United Europe (Beast) and the pope himself (False Prophet) - work to gather the world (Globalization) against God for Armageddon – the Final fight against God is on the works, fulfilling Revelation 16:13.

I have a much clearer explanation of all this that fits into ALL the prophecy on the matter. The little horn of Daniel 7 is assigned a time period of 1260 days (of years.) In Revelation the same number is repeated 5 times in regards to the Roman Empire. The capitol of the empire was moved to Constantinople in 333 AD. An emperor sat on the throne until it was conquered and the last Roman emperor killed in 1453 AD. This split into an eastern and western branch with its claims of Christianity is prophesied by the animal with two horns which illustrate the eastern and western branch. Looks like a lamb which illustrates its claims of Christianity. Spoke like a dragon because Satan was the power behind it.

So simply take 1260 years from 1453 and you get the first year of the reign of Septimius Severus. Now notice what it says in Daniel 7 of the little horn, the 11th of ten emperors because it is fulfilled perfectly in Severus. 3 emperors fell before him in one year. All three assumed the throne without contest. Actual emperors. When Severus decided he wanted the throne. He defeated the sitting emperor and 2 others who claimed it when he did. So he conquered three individuals to get it. Plus he was not an Italian so three Italian dynasties fell before him. His son another African became emperor after him and declared all non slaves in the empire as citizens of the empire forever altering it, as an Italian empire. Most importantly though he started the war against the saints. The ten emperors before him did not heed the Roman religious leaders call for imperial persecutions of Christians. Severus did.. Made the worlds first blasphemy law. Death penalty for becoming a Christian. Started the war against Christians that lasted 1260 years and overcame them.

What of the ten emperors before him? This is not so clear cut. If you only count emperors who won the throne in civil war or assumed it without contest. In other words if three claimed it you don't count the one who happened to be in Rome and was therefore able to sit on it for three months when he claimed it,. You only count the one who won it. Then we have seven emperors (the seven heads of the dragon.) ending with Vespasian. The you have the eighth Titus who is of the seven, he is Vespasian's son. He illustrated the beast because its he that destroys Jerusalem like Nebuchadnezzar did, He is also the first of the ten horns in Daniel 7 and Revelation with the eleventh being Severus.

This is all important but not quite as important as what follows which was the age of promise that was to follow the end of the Roman Empire in 1453 AD. What happened? The first commercial printing press in Europe went on line in 1453 AD+-a year. Within decades and for the first time in human history the Bible got into the hands of the general public and in their own languages to boot. This happened in northern Europe. Then another first in human history outside ancient Israel. The powers that be as they had done since the beginning of the age of the four gentile empires warred against the peoples in northern Europe who were greatly coming under the influence of the Word of God but failed to conquer them. That was the birth of the free world as we know it. The thinking that developed there from Bible possessing and reading people gave us the us the USA and this phenomena has been growing ever since. Now just the opposite from the previous thousands of years of darkness has been occurring. It's the nations most influenced by the Bible who are dominate in the world not the polar opposite as it had been. In those nations. All the earthly promises of God made to hundreds of generations of saints. Promises that never came to pass in all those generations, Those promises have been and are coming to pass in nations were the Bible has had influence. Promises of freedom, the end of despotic human government and legal human slavery, long life, prosperity, being able to raise your children as you see fit. Being able to worship the Lord without fear. etc etc. The age of promise where the mountain of the house of the Lord, who's house we are. Fills the whole earth with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord. Where all nations say come let us go up to the house of the Lord, who's house we are and he will learn us his ways.
If anyone wants to see all this in great detail they can on my article below.
http://wordservice.org/Bible Prophecy/bp3000.htm

 

[Biblewriter]

The errors of this concept, and in particular of the book “Horae Apocalypticae,” were clearly and completely refuted in a book titled "Lectures on the Revelation," published in 1861 by William Kelly, and available online at http://www.stempublishing.com/authors/kelly/2Newtest/REV_index.html

 

[RACarvalho]

What did Pope Vigilius do that makes him Anti-Christ? What Pope in 1590 are you referring to when you say they became a false prophet? What do you make of the good Popes who actually helped Christianity and the world in General in between that time?

First The Antichrist is an office / title of a function and not a person.
Second, it developed (it was not put in place in one day) after and took vantage of the great apostasy that was going on even before Constantine declare Christianity the religion of the state.
The 538 date is counted because it is when it became to be ENFORCED over the believers.
You can be the most pious person on earth but if you deny Jesus doctrines and uphold blasphemies, you are not a disciple of Jesus Christ and you are working against Jesus.
The popes commissioned the Jesuits to fight the reformation and in 1590 they distorted Daniel 9:27 (literally calling the Messiah the antichrist) and started preaching that the rapture would be fulfilled in a 7 year tribulation in the future when the antichrist would appear, therefore the Protestant teaching that the papacy is the antichrist can not be true because the antichrist is still in the future....
Futurism (the jesuit preaching) is a blasphemy for call Messiah the antichrist and violate all rules of interpretation.
So Jesus would write an entire Book of prophecies for the Church and completely miss all the history of the Catholic Church while if we study human History it is impossible to miss the Roman pontiff???? Does that make sense?
More: Even Catholics agree that the beasts of the prophecy in Daniel chapter 7 are the Babylonian, mede/persian, Greek and Roman empires and what is the interpretation method used for that? => Historicism!!! People would study the symbols in the prophecy and the look in the History what power / person, etc hold that and that is the fulfillment of the prophecy....
When you apply that to Revelation, you can't miss the popery as the antichrist...

 

[RACarvalho]

Here’s what you said:

You said the devil managed to counter Jesus, secondly the Catholic Church is the one who initiated the Crusades to fend off the Muslims, while Martin Luther and his “reformation” friends were outside the gates of Vienna trying to convince the defenders to surrender to the Muslims as the Muslims were righteous judgement from God.

You are making confusion between counteract and

Here’s what you said:

You said the devil managed to counter Jesus, secondly the Catholic Church is the one who initiated the Crusades to fend off the Muslims, while Martin Luther and his “reformation” friends were outside the gates of Vienna trying to convince the defenders to surrender to the Muslims as the Muslims were righteous judgement from God.

You are making confusion between counteract and outsmart.
You can fight against God (counteract / make opposition) but you will never be able to outsmart God.
The Islam is the 5th Trumpet - It's a Judgement against Catholicism and apostate Christianity because of their apostasy and blasphemy... That is the reason Luther didn't support the papacy for the papacy is Antichrist.... You don't want to be found by God fighting alongside the devil against the devil punishment....
Jesus Church was never / ever set up to be a political power or a country or a bank.
Jesus Church is Gods family, which doesn't need anything material to gather (Eklesia) for the temple is the very body of the believer.....

 

[RACarvalho]

You have nothing in Church history to back up your claims, your basically looking at scripture as most Protestants do by asking yourself what does this mean to me and decided it fits the Catholic Church. Again, this is merely your own interpretation of prophecy not valid Church interpretations.

I didn't decide anything for I'm nobody. But we do have a historical sequence of events of almost 2000 years that seems to MATCH everything up to revelation 16:13 in order, intensity, purpose and character were the popery occupies a big if not a center, part on it. That is a lot of time and a lot of events to be just a "coincidence".

 

[RACarvalho]

Are all popes, anti-christian, can their be no genuine reformers? What about anti-christian trends in Protestantism? Some might see the only anti-Christian trends in Protestantism as those leaning towards Rome. But what about non-celebate homosexuals in the Bishopric of some of the Protestant churches, as well as other doctrinal aberrations?

Revelation 10 and 11 and 18:4 indicates that the only way to come to God is to leave the Apostate Roman Church for the destination/condemnation is already sealed for the apostate Church...
As for those in Protestantism that follow the same apostasy (declare themselves protestants or Christians but are not fully committed to Christ on a ongoing basis), there are a lot of teaching in the bible about goat and sheep, wheat and tares, etc...

 

[RACarvalho]

These are the same reformers who invented doctrines of their own like Sola Scriptura etc. The reformers came out of a heretical Church and remained heretical, not much of a change, some could argue it went from bad to worse.

Sola Scriptura is in the Bible, but you need to be a disciple of Jesus Christ to see it.
Jesus said that their followers are His disciples.
He said the Church job is to make disciples and he said that it's enough for the disciples TO BE LIKE their master. Therefore is the duty of all true Christian to understand Jesus and to try to live like Him...
Question: How Jesus justified his actions????
He was always responding: "It's is written..." or " Haven't you read...." etc.
Jesus lived here by the Word of God and nothing else - Sola Scriptura!!!.
He completely rejected the religious TRADITION of that time.
So if you are a Disciple of Jesus Christ, you should live by the same principle.

 

[Barney2.0]

Sola Scriptura is in the Bible, but you need to be a disciple of Jesus Christ to see it.
Jesus said that their followers are His disciples.
He said the Church job is to make disciples and he said that it's enough for the disciples TO BE LIKE their master. Therefore is the duty of all true Christian to understand Jesus and to try to live like Him...
Question: How Jesus justified his actions????
He was always responding: "It's is written..." or " Haven't you read...." etc.
Jesus lived here by the Word of God and nothing else - Sola Scriptura!!!.
He completely rejected the religious TRADITION of that time.
So if you are a Disciple of Jesus Christ, you should live by the same principle.

He rejected the religious tradition of his time because it was corrupt, the true Church however is never corrupt. The Bible nowhere claims to be the only authority.

 

[RACarvalho]

What is the NUMBER of the BEAST?

Since Revelation was written in Greek, I prefer to keep the Greek solution, which render "Lateinos" in Ancient Greek - Which means "Latin Speaking man..."

 

[Barney2.0]

You are making confusion between counteract and

You are making confusion between counteract and outsmart.
You can fight against God (counteract / make opposition) but you will never be able to outsmart God.
The Islam is the 5th Trumpet - It's a Judgement against Catholicism and apostate Christianity because of their apostasy and blasphemy... That is the reason Luther didn't support the papacy for the papacy is Antichrist.... You don't want to be found by God fighting alongside the devil against the devil punishment....
Jesus Church was never / ever set up to be a political power or a country or a bank.
Jesus Church is Gods family, which doesn't need anything material to gather (Eklesia) for the temple is the very body of the believer.....

Islamism is barbarism and to be fought at every turn, but Luther supported the Muslims. The Church is an authority set by Jesus and resides within us. If Jesus hasn’t counteracted to the papacy then that makes him weak.

 

[Barney2.0]

I didn't decide anything for I'm nobody. But we do have a historical sequence of events of almost 2000 years that seems to MATCH everything up to revelation 16:13 in order, intensity, purpose and character were the popery occupies a big if not a center, part on it. That is a lot of time and a lot of events to be just a "coincidence".

And a lot of people said these signs fit Hitler, some say it fits Islam.

 

[RACarvalho]

He rejected the religious tradition of his time because it was corrupt, the true Church however is never corrupt. The Bible nowhere claims to be the only authority.

yes, the religious tradition of that time was corrupt but when the current religious tradition is directely AGAINST what God wrote, it is not corrupt???
Yes, the true church is never corrupt because people that love their God above anything else will get out of a Church denomination if that church denomination apostate and start preaching things in direct violation of Gods will.

 

[Barney2.0]

yes, the religious tradition of that time was corrupt but when the current religious tradition is directely AGAINST what God wrote, it is not corrupt???
Yes, the true church is never corrupt because people that love this God above anything else will get out of a Church if that church apostate and start preaching things in direct violation of Gods will.

Depends which religious tradition your looking at or if your interpreting scripture to your own will not within any tradition.

 

[RACarvalho]

And a lot of people said these signs fit Hitler, some say it fits Islam.

That is the reason we need to study ourselves...
If you were in the time of Jesus you would have to decide if you believe in the Doctors of the Law or if you believe in a "John nobody" that came from Nazareth and is being followed by a bunch of poor people....

 

[Barney2.0]

That is the reason we need to study ourselves...
If you were in the time of Jesus you would have to decide if you believe in the Doctors of the Law or if you believe in a "John nobody" that came from Nazareth and is being followed by a bunch of poor people....

How would you know that if your interpreting scripture by what you feel it best means?

 

[RACarvalho]

Islamism is barbarism and to be fought at every turn, but Luther supported the Muslims. The Church is an authority set by Jesus and resides within us. If Jesus hasn’t counteracted to the papacy then that makes him weak.

Israel was the people of God... Then they apostate and God sent the Assirians to invade the northern part and taken them away, but Judah repented and God didn't let the Assirians take over Judah, Then Judah apostate and God sent the Babilonians to invade them, burn the temple and take them captive to Babylon... God Himself said that He would restore Judah after 70 years "because the promissed I made to David" which means the Messiah... Then Messiah came and the Jews finally reject Him, kill Him and persecuted and kill the believers.... Then God gave the work of preaching salvation to the gentiles and sent the Romans to destroy Jerusalem, the temple and scatter them over all the world...
The same thing happened and is happening with the apostate Roman Catholic Church and her daughters.
God sent the Islam (5th Trumpet) for 150 years, they didn't repent, then God sent the Turks and they didn't repent so by the end of 6th Trumpet (Turks) God started calling his people out of her for she have sealed her fate, then God poured atheism (first bow - from which come Socialism, Communism, and all the isms that plague the earth) and they didn't repent, then God poured the bloody French revolution (second bow) and yet, no repentance....
The King of France obeyed the Pope and got rid of protestants and the Bible and in less than 100 years later God eliminated the Kings in France through the French Revolution...
The Spanish armada, very skilled man of sea that had discovered and colonized most of the new world was set to fight against protestant England because of the pope and it was decimated...
See the similarities?

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

Rome is not visited and payed respects by all people, Rome does not sit on seven hills. Mecca sits on seven hills and is payed respects by all people, it’s Kaaba decorated with the finest silk, fragrances, and incense. From Mecca a traditional city there are horses, oil, jewels, and souls of men.

Rome is well known through history as as the "city of seven hills." [By many writers and poets including Virgil, Horace, Claudian, Ovid, Starius, Marshal, Varro, etc.] When it was first founded by Romulus, he set up a settlement on Palatine hill and six other settlements were made on six other hills (including one by Remus on Aventine? hill I believe.) The settlements bonded through religious games and turned the land between them into markets. Eventually walls were built in the 4th century BC to protect these seven settlements.

• Aventine Hill
• Caelian Hill
• Capitoline Hill
• Esquiline Hill
• Palatine Hill
• Quirinal Hill
• Viminal Hill
  
  You can see a map here: https://theculturetrip.com/europe/italy/articles/what-are-the-seven-hills-of-rome/
  
  The city has certainly expanded through the millennia, and many of those original hills became more like ridges due to development - but it doesn't change it's status.
  
  In fact, as Plutarch describes, Rome had an ancient feast Septimontium, the feast "Of the seven hilled city." And some imperial coins of Vespasian depicted a woman seated atop seven hills!
  
  "The figure of Roma represents the city of Rome built on the seven hills of Rome. Romulus and Remus were twin grandsons of the Trojan prince Aeneas who fled Troy after its fall. They were left to die floating in a basket on the Tiber river as infants but Tiberinus the deity of the river caused the basket to be caught on a reed. They were then saved by a she wolf who suckled them. Later they were found by a shepherd and raised by him and his wife. On maturity they went on to found the new city of Rome on the seven hills. This rare and interesting reverse portrays essentially the complete myth of the founding of Rome."
  
  
  
  
  http://www.edgarlowen.com/roman-imperial-coins-12-caesars.shtml
  
  
  
  
  As for respect, I am sure you have heard the idiom "All Roads lead to Rome?" - Rome was a central hub of the ancient world. The Vatican was a hub longe after that. (Indeed there was even a Pope, Leo III, who was publicly assaulted during a procession and his eyes stabbed repeatedly and who slashed at his tongue to cut it out (reports vary as to whether or not this was successful,) but who survived and regained the use of his sight and tongue. People came from many distant countries to marvel at him. He also was the pope to crown Charlemagne, thus asserting the Papacy's power "over" the crown.)
  
  Rome is still one of the top tourist destinations today, marveled at by people all over the world for its architecture, treasures, and history. (~7-20 million visitors a year from many countries.) The Vatican museums actually receive more tourists than the Colosseum. Italy is the 5th most popular country for tourists to visit, as well.
  
  Tourism to Mecca is far less. Saudi Arabia is the "19th" most visited country in the world. Saudi Arabia only just started issuing tourist visas in 2013 - most of the people coming in to Mecca are religious Muslims on pilgrimage, not from the nations of the world coming to marvel.
  
  More importantly, Islam was not a religion at the time the scriptures were written. Revelation heavily implies that readers can figure out the city of seven hills and the harlot of Babylon.
  
  Besides Rome, what is the other famous Biblical city of seven hills? Jerusalem. And to be fair, there were many people in Jerusalem of the time who were 'anti-Christ' - but it really doesn't fit elsewise.
  
  Constantine, also, shortly built Constantinople on seven hills in *imitation* of Rome.