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Featured Historicism - The Reformers eschatology

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by RACarvalho, Aug 14, 2018.

  1. RACarvalho

    RACarvalho New Member

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    One of the biggest damage that the Roman Bishop inflicted to the church was in the way Christians see themselves and understand their mission on earth related to the political powers.... The bishop of Rome made politics a branch of the Church..... The mixing of Iron and clay....
    You can read and re read the new testament and you will find not a single mention from Jesus or the disciples on the Roman or Jew policies, political landscape, etc...
    That damage persist until today....
     
  2. RACarvalho

    RACarvalho New Member

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    If you get back to Daniel interpretation of the statue dream, you will notice that Daniel says that the Head of Gold was "you the king" (Nabucodonossor) and "after you come another...".
    The "you" there was not the King Nabucodonossor himself, the person, but his dynasty and form of government as History shows to us for Nabucodonossor died and his son and grandson ruled after him....
    The same thing with Revelation 17 when it mentions the 7 "kings" plus the 8th "King".
    The Roman Beast, at the time the revelation was given, had already have 5 forms of leadership: Kings, Consuls, Dictators, Decemvirs and Military Tribunes, the one in place at the time was the Imperial Head comencing with Octavian, which was the sixth.
    After that it came the 7th form of government - the Dukedom of Rome - which "last a short time" and the 8th is the popery ....
     
  3. Eternally Grateful

    Eternally Grateful Member

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    The antichrist/man of sin/beast of revelation is no more than the final roman emperor who takes control of pretty much the whole world. He is the last gentile leader and his destruction will be the end of the time or age of the gentiles. and the restoration of Israel with Jesus himself ruling earth on davids throne.

    Not sure the POPE fits here..
     
  4. RACarvalho

    RACarvalho New Member

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    Can you point me to the forum that disprove that?

    Nevertheless we should seek the truth:
    Isn't true that Protestants in the 16th century (and all the way up until early 20th Century) were preaching and teaching that the popery is the Antichrist?
    Isn't true that in 1590dc (some say 1585..) to fight against Protestant teaching, the Jesuit priest Francisco Ribera wrote "In Sacrum Beati Ioannis Apostoli, & Evangelistiae Apocalypsin Commentarij" stating that the first chapters of Revelation was ref. to the past and all the rest was about a 3 and 1/2 year tribulation in the future?
    Isn't true that in 1810 Jesuit Manuel Lacunza wrote "La venida del Mesías en gloria y majestad" under the pseudonym of "Rabbi Juan Josaphat Ben-Ezra" stating that the antichrist would appear only in the Future?
    Isn't true that Edward Irwing, after parting from the Presbiterian church and founding his own church translated Lacunzas work into English?
    Now tell me how in the World Futurism can be the right interpretation...
    By their fruits you will know them:
    Jesuits were killing people while protestants were bringing millions to Jesus....
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2018
  5. RACarvalho

    RACarvalho New Member

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    By "it" I mean the papacy.
    The creation of the Papacy as a religious and political power was a process that was enabled by the falling away of the believers.
    So it is true that Jesus Christ Church is "Catholic" in the sense that the catholic world means universal, but the religious/politician bishops gave this word a spin to use religion as a political/power tool. So besides Theodosius sin to enforce, it was the Emperor decree enforced in Rome that marked the official reign of this power that is opposed to God.
    The Western Roman Empire found their demise when God used the Turks (6th Trumpet) to invade and take over Constantinople all the characteristic of the descriptions in the 6th Trumpet can be found in the Turkish army.
    As for Jesuits preaching Futurism, please look for the work of the Jesuit Francisco Ribera (1585-1590) called "In Sacrum Beati Ioannis Apostoli, & Evangelistiae Apocalypsin Commentarij" launched exactly to fight against protestant teaching that the popery is the Antichrist and the work of Jesuit priest Manuel Lacunza (1816) called "La venida del Mesías en gloria y majestad"....

    As for "the Rapture", 2 Tess. 2 mentions a "catching up" but the Jesuits gave it a spin to divert attention from the popery while the Bible give way more attention to the Antichrist (mentioned in multiple books, etc) than the "Catching up" of the living believers when Jesus comes back....
    Yes the "Catching up" will happen as it is written and that should bring comfort to the believer but if you are in a war in the battlefield, keeping an eye on the enemy and doing your job is way more important than dreaming with the time of the extraction.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2018
  6. RACarvalho

    RACarvalho New Member

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    Antichrist being the last Roman Emperor => That is Right. The pope took over that place of the Emperors and ruled over all Kings in Europe until God poured the 5th vial over his head... But as we speak, he is working hard to get that control again through Globalization, therefore fulfilling his job as a false prophet in Rev. 16:13....
    The restoration of Israel will happen when they see Jesus coming. That is the end of the time of gentiles witnessing fro the Lord and the end of this world. When they see Him, they will repent and weep. Remembering that Israel now means the believers for the circuncision is of the heart (Romans 2:29) and there is no separation between Jews and Gentiles in the Kingdom of Jesus (Galatians 3:28) but we are one in Christ.
     
  7. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    And the truth will set you free!

    Here are a few links:


    https://www.christianforums.com/threads/john-n-darby-and-the-pre-trib-rapture.8024297/#post-71691849
    Here is another one:

    https://www.christianforums.com/thr...etrib-rapture-doctrine.7848777/#post-66542818
     
  8. RACarvalho

    RACarvalho New Member

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    Cool, I'll study that and if darby didn't get his ideas from Edward Irwin I will retract.
    On the other hand, the most important point is if Futurism is a valid interpretation or not and it is a fact that Jesuits were using Futurism to fight protestants way before Darby....
    So we have a Church/State that have killed believers and burn the bible from centuries and now we will trust that their interpretation of the prophecies is true????
    Can you show me in the bible were it talks about "THE great tribulation of 7 years" ?
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2018
  9. Eternally Grateful

    Eternally Grateful Member

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    Sorry, But I must disagree. God has not poured any vial yet. we are not in the end times yet (although I think we are close, and maybe even suffering the birth pangs)

    The restoration of Israel will happen when they repent, and it may be that they repent when they see him
    and Again, Disagree, Israel is said to be living in peace in her land, The gentile nations are said to be in their own lands, Jesus is said to be ruling all. And there are believers in all.

    in all, If Israel repents when Jesus comes, and Israel is jew and gentile alike. then who did Jesus defeat when he returned? Who are all the bodies which for a year will keep the birds fat and happy?
     
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  10. RACarvalho

    RACarvalho New Member

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    Can you disclose in what biblical basis you disagree?
    Atheism have all the characteristics of the fist vial.
    French revolution have all the characteristics of the second vial.
    The spreading of French revolution matchs the third vial.
    The Napoleonic wars match the fourth vial.
    The arrest of the pope and the take over of the Catholic Church by the Jesuits have all the characteristics of the fifth vial.
    The falling of the Ottoman empire followed by the start of the Globalization efforts matches the Sixth Vial....
    The above, added to the fulfillment of all the seals and 6 Trumpets in history before that validates the Protestant Historicist view.
    While the Futurist view, not only was/is a tool in the hands of the enemies of God but is based on a blasphemous misinterpretation of Daniel 9:27....
     
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  11. Eternally Grateful

    Eternally Grateful Member

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    Revelation is speaking of the last days, Jesus spoke of the last days or great tribulation FOLLOWING the abomination of desolation. Since that has yet to happen, how can gods wrath be poured out on the earth yet? When it is not yet time,

    The great tribulation, and the vials and all that go with it, will be so much greater in severity than all those things you think they are.
     
  12. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Mecca is a mountainous city, it fits the prophecy much better then Rome or any city on Earth.
     
  13. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The concept of a holy war or crusade was the only way to get the Europeans to stop fighting each other and fight the Turks.
     
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  14. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    In the 16th century? No. Nation-states had progressed to the point it was entirely possible to form political alliances. Besides, the Crusades were mostly failures at achieving long-term military objectives. The Frankish armies descended into being plunderers and brigands.

    What Luther was objecting to was the ridiculous notion that the Church could make promises of the absolution of the temporal debt of sin based on participation in war: the sacramentalisation of warfare.
     
  15. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    I don't think the Meccans use the denarius.......

    Luke 20:
    23 But He perceived their craftiness, and said unto them,
    24 "Show Me a denarius. Whose image and superscription hath it?"
    And they said, "Caesar's".

    Luke 19:
    41 And as He nears, being aware the City, He laments upon Her
    42 saying "that if Thou knew and thou even indeed in the day, this, the toward peace of Thee, now yet it was Hid from Thy eyes.
    43 That shall be arriving days upon Thee and Thy enemies shall be casting up a siege-work to Thee and shall be encompassing Thee and pressing Thee every which place.

    Revelation 6:6
    And I hear a voice in midst of the four living-ones saying: "choinex of grain/wheat a denarius and three choinex of barleys a denarius,
    and the oil and the wine no you should be injuring".

    http://www.bible.ca/pre-destruction70AD-george-holford-1805AD.htm

    The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover. At this season multitudes came up from all the surrounding country, and from distant parts, to keep the festival and the city was at this time crowded with Jewish strangers...........
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2018
  16. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    The hard truth is approximately two dozen writers from the sixteen hundreds and seventeen hundreds clearly taught a rapture before the great tribulation, as well as at least one from medieval times and at least four from truly ancient times, including the very oldest Christian commentator who wrote on Bible prophecy at any significant length, and whose writings have survived to the present day.
     
  17. Jennifer Rothnie

    Jennifer Rothnie Well-Known Member

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    That link just shows Darby started off as an amillennial historist. It doesn't show anything one way or another about how he arrived at his views on a pre-trib rapture.

    I'm not sure this relates at all. The poster seems to believe that Darby's doctrine has contradiction with Jesus' gospel - there isn't anything in it to prove that Darby's views were right, that there is a pre-trib rapture, or that the topic has been 'proven' on the forum.
     
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  18. Jennifer Rothnie

    Jennifer Rothnie Well-Known Member

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    My husband found this interesting article the other day: http://jcfreak73.blogspot.com/2011/04/apocalyptic-pie-american-pie-as-modern.html

    The premise is analyzing the song 'American Pie' as apocalyptic literature, but he has a great breakdown of apocalyptic literary forms used in Revelation and elsewhere in the Bible that is worth a read:

    "Polyvalent metaphor: A polyvalent metaphor is a metaphor that refers to more than one thing at once. For example, the beasts in Daniel and Revelation refer both to kings and the nations and peoples of those kings simultaneously. Additionally, it can refer to the way in which a metaphor may actually change its referent.

    Metonym:
    A metonym is when you refer to something by referring to something else which is related to it. For instance, when we say the White House says something, we do not mean that the building itself spoke. Instead we are referring to the Presidential Administration by way of metonym. Another example is when we say "Use your head" we actually mean "use your mind" or think. The entire genre of apocalyptic writing is one big metonym, where the events are described by talking about the spiritual forces behind those events. Additionally, judgements are not usually described specifically, but often refer to the entire state of the planet as being in chaos and disarray. This is also metonym.

    Interpreted Events: The point of Apocalypse isn't to explain to us what events happened, or what events are going to happen. The point is to explain why, and what the effects of these events are. They are explaining the power behind the events rather than the events themselves.

    Intermittence: Events are not told in chronological order, but instead are told in discreet snippets. These snippets may chronologically overlap, or the last event may be told first, or they may be the retelling of exactly the same event, or they may be drastically different time periods, or they may actually be chronological. For instance, Revelation is split into 5 sets of seven, as well as having these sets of seven interrupted by other images. These snippets may blend together, or they may be completely isolated from each other. Usually these snippets can stand alone, and create a single image. However the snippets will often slightly reference each other."
     
  19. Jennifer Rothnie

    Jennifer Rothnie Well-Known Member

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    That really doesn't change anything. In the Greek the word can refer to a mountain or a hill; in Apocalyptic literature the imagery is highly symbolic; 7 legendary kings were said to have ruled Rome from 753 BC until 509 BC and 'mountain' is a frequent symbol for king; "Mount Zion" is actually a hill; etc.

    Oros: a mountain (as lifting itself above the plain): hill, mount
     
  20. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    However you want to translate it is fine with......

    Galatians 4:
    24
    which things is an allegory.
    For these are *the two Covenants,
    one indeed from mount Sinai into servitude generating who-any is Hagar.

    25 For the Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, is together-elemental yet to the now Jerusalem slaving/serving with the offsprings of Her.

    Hebrew 12:18

    For not ye have come toward to being handled a mountain having been kindled to fire
    and to murkiness and to darkness and to tempest.

    Out with the Old, in with the New:

    Revelation 8:8

    And the second Messenger trumpets and as-like a mountain, great to fire burning, was cast into the Sea
    and became the third of the Sea blood
    [Matthew 21:21 Galatians 4:24 Hebrews 12:18]
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2018
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