hi! new here - and i need some help

[Valid Name]

Greetings Rabbi Cohen,

Thank you very much for your gracious reply, it is most appreciated. I came here a while ago looking to converse about the Noahide law. I started a thread on it, and was hoping for someone like you to come along. Perhaps I can ask a moderator to snipp our conversation from this thread to that one.

Now don't get me wrong, I have absolutely NO problem with the mitzvi that you mention. My issue really is about whether or not these laws were given at the time they are said to have been, and what the repercussions of these would have been.

Allow me to share my reasoning why I do not believe that the Noahide Laws exist (not the laws themselves, but a biblical teaching of them as the Noahide law).

You did bring up Acts 15, which is often associated with the Noahide law.

Bear with me for a moment -

If a Law is given, then not only is a Law made, but Lawbreakers are made. It is said that the law is not made for the righteous, but the unrighteous. A good example is in the garden of eden. We can find that Eve had coveted a fruit, she coveted how The Father is (she wished to be wise like him), she told the serpent that she was not to touch the fruit, but she did, and she stole. None of these things were wrong however, because there was no Law against stealing or coveting, only eating the fruit.

Thus, they ate the fruit, and became Transgressors of the Law.

Now Paul talks about this, and he comes to a conlusion about the Law:

Romans 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. 15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. 20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

Here is where the jist of my problems come with the Noahide Laws. It is said that they were given between the time of Adam and Moses, during the time of Noah. Now if there were Laws given, there were also Transgressors of those Laws. However Paul comes to the Conclusion that NO ONE Transgressed a Law between the Time of Adam and Moses like Adam did. No one Transgressed a command, because there was not one given. So death reigned over those who were not breaking a Law, and The Father could see this was unjust. If you die, you need to die for your own sin, not someone elses. So then The Law enters to do what? INCREASE the Offense of Adam, to make others transgressors JUST LIKE Adam Was.

I hope I conveyed this correctly and that we can continue this disscussion in due time. Thank you.

Sincerely,
Valid Name

 

[Rabbi Cohen]

BS"D

Shalom Valid,

It is very late and I only have a moment, but I read your post, and I would like to comment on just a couple of points.

You stated that when a Law is made, Lawbreakers are made. This is a non-sequitur argument. The fact is that the offending individuals are not manifested through the enactment of an edict, but rather only their actions may be violations resultant from such laws. It would be a more productive argument, (if based on logical premises) to present the idea of the enactment of a law, and how it might influence one's intentions to or against it. I think that those who violate laws, are violators even before the law is ratified. Thus, the argument has exceeding potential to become circular, (i.e., was it the law who created the lawbreakers or was it the lawbreakers who created the law), in either case, again, I submit this is a non-sequitur argument. In the instance of the Torah, I believe, one is independent of the other.

My next point is that you mention that the Laws did not exist from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, this is not a Scriptural statement, because we know that the Torah (including the Laws) DID exist especially during the time of Noach. It says in Bereshis (Genesis) 26:5, that Avraham obeyed Hashem's (G-d's) sayings (those he heard verbally), His commandments (i.e,. the Mitzvos), His statutes (i.e., the LAWS) and His Torahs (in Hebrew Toroti - the plural form of my Torahs).

Scholars generally agree that Noach was still alive during a portion of Avraham's lifetime.

All the best,
R.Cohen

 

[feus]

Well I know you have probley looked at it at this booklet section already,as I refer you to them all the time,and they just talk about it paganness, but just in case.

Hah! And thank you very much, anyway; I'm sure I can glean some sort of factual information from it

BenTsion:

Anyway, I tend to think of this mitzvah as more related to the person PREPARING the food than the person eating. Do not forget that at that time people killed their own animals to eat. I guess the principle behind this mitzvah is that G-d doesn't want animals to suffer any acts of cruelty. If your local butcher dismembers living animals, then HE is the one who's going to answer to G-d about that. Of course we cannot condone such a brutality, but, my point is, if we start worrying about each and every little thing people do to food before it reaches our table, or to money before it reaches our pockets, and so on, then we'll end up going bananas.

Very true, but I thought the reason was holiness?

I mean, what if the apple you're eating comes from an apple tree that's been fertilized by a bunch of corpses of little kids that were brutally murdered by a serial killer and buried near that very tree? You see what I mean? If we go down the paths of paranoia, there's no end to it.

An extreme example! But I do see what you mean. However, and I think I am blowing this way out of proportion btw, isn't that sort of like buying a car with suspiciously little paperwork and not caring whether it was stolen or not?

I, too, have yet another question on the Noahide laws for anyone who'd like to answer.

Ok, well, my first question is: what is sin? I know it's a transgression of the law - I'm sorry, I don't know the exact verse, but I'm sure it's there. But what law are we talking about here? Is it, for gentiles, the Noahide law? I just want some clarification, I mean, if anyone would like to help ^^

-feus

 

[feus]

1 John 3:4

That is it. Also, I think I owe everyone another apology for my T-day sorry-for-myself post. I jsut glanced back over it, and well, yes. I also owe an extra apology to Rabbi Cohen - if he reads this - because I realized that I hardly responded to his post at all. You see, I really did read it, but it just added to my...um...despondency. I thought: if all this noachide law stuff is so, then what am I bothering for? Which is not the best thought, but an honest one. And I was just sort of like: Am I really just kidding myself with all this?

So, a second, and probably slightly more sincere apology, and also a reason! Just wanted to add this...for no particular reason, really, except I saw the extra-long post and my five-second reply to it and felt ashamed. Also, I found the verse. Is up there ...and my question still stands - what law, if (?) it applies to everyone?

 

[BenTsion]

Feus,
Shalom!

Very true, but I thought the reason was holiness?

It is! But one might ask: what is holiness if not living according to G-d's principles and under the blood of Messiah? Remember, taking care of your health is just ONE aspect of living a holy life. I guess not being cruel to animals is another one

btw, isn't that sort of like buying a car with suspiciously little paperwork and not caring whether it was stolen or not?

One thing we learn in our walk with G-d is that he wants us to think for ourselves. That's why he gave us a common sense, and the ability to pray and ask for guidance from Ruach HaKodesh (Holy Spirit). So, on the lines of what I've just said, I think we must find a balance. We're not going to overlook things on purpose so that we can, say, cut a good deal. But it's not our responsability to hire a private investigator either. Secret is: pray about it! See where G-d leads you and tell Him that you don't want to make the wrong decision. He'll surely honor your request and help you, even with (apparently) tiny little things such as shopping for meat.

Ok, well, my first question is: what is sin? I know it's a transgression of the law - I'm sorry, I don't know the exact verse, but I'm sure it's there. But what law are we talking about here? Is it, for gentiles, the Noahide law? I just want some clarification, I mean, if anyone would like to help ^^

In Hebrew, to sin means, literally, to 'miss the target'.
So, we all have a target, which is, being closer to G-d. If we didn't have that target, we wouldn't be followers of Messiah, now, would we? Well, breaking His instructions (I actually prefer the word 'instruction' which is a more accurate translation) makes us miss the target, it drives us away from him, for He is Holy and perfect.

As for the Noahide laws, they're for everyone in the human race, and so are all of the other instructions coming from Messiah

Feus, you see, if you focus on what Yeshua said and try to keep THAT, you'll automatically be keeping the Torah and the Noahide laws. Problem is, it's tougher to keep one single instruction Messiah gave us than the entire set of 613 laws from the Torah.

In Messiah,
Ben Tsion

 

[Valid Name]

Greetings Rabbi Cohen,

There are a few things that we do agree on that I should clarify.

The Law does not make one a Lawbreaker, they are already Lawbreakers. We know that the Law is made for the unrighteous, not the righteous. I also agree that the Torah was in existance between the time of Adam and Moses, however it seems Transgressions against it were not imputed to anyone besides those to whom it was shown to.

What my question is, if there were Laws given to all mankind between Adam and Moses, why did Paul in Romans 5 say that Death reigned over those who did not Transgress in the Likeness of Adam, and that The Law entered that His Offense might abound?

The only conclusion that I can come up with is that the Law entered with Moses, because Paul seems to be explaining that people died between the time of Adam and Moses even though they had not transgressed a command as Adam did (which is unfair, you need to die for your own sin). If there were Noahide laws in this time would not someone have surely transgressed them?

Peace,
Valid Name

 

[feus]

Secret is: pray about it!

I surely will! Thanks for your help, though - food for thought, certainly.

Feus, you see, if you focus on what Yeshua said and try to keep THAT, you'll automatically be keeping the Torah and the Noahide laws.

Yes, people have told me this before, although it was mainly to point out to me that I needn't bother with the Torah. But I see your point, I do.

Problem is, it's tougher to keep one single instruction Messiah gave us than the entire set of 613 laws from the Torah.

Well, yes, although loving your neighbor is one of the 613 and that's pretty darn hard to do. But I suppose 'neighbor' is a fairly subjective word...enemy less so!

Anyway, thank you so much for your help, and I'm afraid I won't be able to get on the computer for a few days or so which is why I'm thanking you now, but don't worry - I won't have died. Not yet, anyway. Probably.



-feus

 

[takeastand]

Hello all. im 16 and I am just now getting into messianic Judaism. im still new and I dont know alot of things about it. I also felt like something was missing in my life and I think this is it.. well good luck and hope to grow with you spiritually..shalom

 

[feus]

Hello! We'll both just be new, then!

Have a nice night ^^

 

[BenTsion]

Takeastand and Feus,

May the Holy One of Israel bless you greatly!

It is no coincidence that you both felt something was missing from your lives and
feel this may be it. You see, as we approach the last days of this wicked world,
the L-RD has been calling His people to santification. He's been calling His Bride to let
go of this prosperity gospel many churches have adopted over the years, for the Messiah is not returning to Las Vegas, but to Jerusalem! It is time to let go of the Roman pre-conceptions and seek restoration of our faith, not through new revelation, but by going back to the Torah. Yeshua is the living Torah and he wants us to have a healthy relationship with Him, and the scriptures are our guide. There's no such thing as the 'Old' (obsolete, not valid) and 'New' Testaments, there is ONE WORD, ONE MESSIAH, ONE G-D!

I pray that the L-RD will continue to bless you both, as you earnestly seek to do His will. And that you may find what you've been missing: His unchanging Word! And if we here at this forum can somehow contribute to your spiritual growth, then we are the ones being blessed!

In Mashiach,
Ben Tsion