Hi/Bye

[Nihilist Virus]

Why don't you give the exact verses you are referencing? That might help.

Because I want to see Christians describe how terrible a law that is before I show them that it is in the Bible.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Are you thinking of Nihilism or Skepticism?

Nihilism.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Because I want to see Christians describe how terrible a law that is before I show them that it is in the Bible.

Well knowing that our entire faith our model of perfection is Jesus Christ, one must then follow His words.

Matthew 22:37-40
37 And He said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the great and foremost commandment. 39 The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”

 

[Vicomte13]

I have to cite 1 Corinthians 5:12-13 twice in one day?

If you think that 1 Corinthians 5:12-13 applies to you, and explains why you justify to yourself being either a cold-hearted monster for not caring about starving children, or for being a hypocrite (on your terms) for caring about starving children but having a TV anyway, then yes, by all means cite it again if by that you can explain yourself.

 

[Cappadocious]

Nihilism.

What about Nihilism would deny that line?

 

[Nihilist Virus]

What about Nihilism would deny that line?

Nihilism makes no assumptions. There's no point where I just accept something as true even though it can't be proven. I take laws of logic for what they are - assumptions. Logic is entirely conditional.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

If you think that 1 Corinthians 5:12-13 applies to you, and explains why you justify to yourself being either a cold-hearted monster for not caring about starving children, or for being a hypocrite (on your terms) for caring about starving children but having a TV anyway, then yes, by all means cite it again if by that you can explain yourself.

Did you even read it?

You are not to judge me (1 Corinthians 5:12-13), but I am to judge you (Matthew 5:13-16). This isn't hypocrisy on my part because your own holy book laid it out that way. If you think this is stupid then maybe get out a Sharpie and make a Jefferson Bible for yourself. I'd like to see the result.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Well knowing that our entire faith our model of perfection is Jesus Christ, one must then follow His words.

Matthew 22:37-40
37 And He said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the great and foremost commandment. 39 The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”

Their definition of neighbor does not include women as far as I know. If you can show me even one such instance in which that word described a woman, I'll concede the argument. But until then, you've put a smelly red herring on the table.

The other context in which rape is allowed is when God tells the Jews to invade another nation (such people are not considered neighbors) and, on some occasions, take the virgins as war booty. Surely if a 12 year old girl saw her family slaughtered in front of her, and then one of the men from the invading army claimed her as a wife, the ensuing sexual encounter would be rape. Can you agree with that?

 

[JacksBratt]

OK... couldn't Muslims say the exact same thing? I still don't see your point.

Say what exact thing? And, again, you deflected. Why are you saying that the Christian religion is a hateful religion. I asked for examples not a deflecting comparison to Islam.

I recognize that Islam is by far a worse institution by Christianity - it's not even close - but there is still a comparison to be made.

For sure there are comparisons to be made between Islam and the religions that follow the teachings of Christ. However, you made a statement toward the Christian religion. Maybe we could address this first.

I don't know where in the Koran it says to murder people, but we all know it's there. But Islamic apologists will do a song and dance about it. Somewhat similarly, I know exactly where in the Bible it says to murder and rape people, but Christian apologists will do a song and dance about it.

Please show me where it says you can murder and rape people, in the Bible.

 

[JacksBratt]

Try reading the rest of the post that you snipped away to produce that quote, for starters.

I see nothing in your post that deals with proof that Christianity is a religion of hate. That is what I was addressing here. I snipped away the rest as that is in regards to a different post that I will deal with in time.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

I see nothing in your post that deals with proof that Christianity is a religion of hate. That is what I was addressing here. I snipped away the rest as that is in regards to a different post that I will deal with in time.

No, you mixed the topics up. That conversation is about your claim that God is the law.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Say what exact thing? And, again, you deflected. Why are you saying that the Christian religion is a hateful religion. I asked for examples not a deflecting comparison to Islam.



For sure there are comparisons to be made between Islam and the religions that follow the teachings of Christ. However, you made a statement toward the Christian religion. Maybe we could address this first.



Please show me where it says you can murder and rape people, in the Bible.

Edit - quoted wrong post.

Happy is he who takes thy little ones and dashes them against a rock.
Psalms 137:9

Hateful enough?

Slaughter them all, but take the virgins as wives for yourselves.
Paraphrase of Numbers 31:15-18

In a span of four verses the Bible casually discusses venereal disease, rape & sex trafficking, infanticide & premeditated murder of civilians, and genocide. All with the blessing of Moses who, while admittedly not perfect, literally spoke on behalf of God.

In today's world, Moses would be a war criminal on par with Hitler.

As I remarked to ToBeLoved,

Surely if a 12 year old girl saw her family slaughtered in front of her, and then one of the men from the invading army claimed her as a wife, the ensuing sexual encounter would be rape. Can you agree with that?

 

[JacksBratt]

No.

I see. So what would be an indication, to you that these Christians are embracing their faith in Christ?

If you are in email correspondence with someone and they don't respond within a year, don't you usually get the impression that their response is never gonna happen?

Now how long does it have to be before you get the impression that Christ isn't coming back? Does the sun have to expand into a red giant and engulf the earth before you get that impression?

I'm really not sure what you are getting at here. No man knows when Christ is going to return. Are you saying that He is taking too long? If you believe that He is, in fact, coming back, you do realize that as an unbeliever, He is not coming back for you? Do you think that, as a Christian, I should have expected Christ to return sooner than He has?
Is Christs return the only thing that can be considered a returned "email" from Him?

I'm not saying you're a bad human being for owning a TV. Just a bad Christian.

Really? I'm a bad Christian for owning a TV? Even a 12 year old CRT that will probably last me another 5 years?

Exactly what oath of perpetual poverty do you think Christians should take in order to be a good Christian. Better still, by what standard are you judging a TV owning Christian?

 

[JacksBratt]

Happy is he who takes thy little ones and dashes them against a rock.
Psalms 137:9

The Psalmist here is singing a song of revenge. The Babylonians killed the Jewish children in war. The Psalmist is singing that they would like to do the same to the Babylonian children. They are mourning and singing of revenge.

This psalm is showing the old testament law of an eye for an eye. This Psalm is not saying that Christians should enjoy killing children as part of the doctrine of their religion.

Slaughter them all, but take the virgins as wives for yourselves.

Paraphrase of Numbers 31:15-18


In a span of four verses the Bible casually discusses venereal disease, rape & sex trafficking, infanticide & premeditated murder of civilians, and genocide. All with the blessing of Moses who, while admittedly not perfect, literally spoke on behalf of God.

In today's world, Moses would be a war criminal on par with Hitler.

Moses was speaking on behalf of God. God had absolutely had it with the Midianites. They had been given numerous occasions to repent, Nineveh did repent and was spared, but the Midianites remained wicked and lead the Israelite s into apostasy. God ordered their destruction for this. When the Israelite soldiers brought these women back they were in direct violation of following Gods request due to God knowing that they would, again, lead the men into apostasy.
The young men were killed to avoid them from doing the same. The young women who were not married and virgins were probably under twelve and were not a threat to leading the men of Israel into apostasy.

God is the omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, and all-righteous “I Am” Who is over all things—so He may do whatever He wishes, so long as it is not in violation of His character. However, God does everything for a reason. Sometimes that reason may be unclear to us. In the case of the destruction of people like the Canaanites, God’s reasoning had to do with His justice. Deuteronomy 32:3-4 records: “For I will proclaim the name of Jehovah: Ascribe ye greatness unto our God. The Rock, his work is perfect; For all his ways are justice: A God of faithfulness and without iniquity, Just and right is he” . Men may not always understand God’s justice, or His reasons for exercising it as He does. As Job 4:17 asked: “ Shall mortal man be more just than God? Shall a man be more pure than his Maker?”. The fact is, God does condone killing—in the name of justice (whether it be justice in regard to one person, or a whole nation). Even in modern times, the death penalty is an acceptable means of administering justice (Romans 13:1-7; cf. Genesis 9:6). While God is all loving, He also is a God of justice, and He will execute that justice in the most propitious manner—including by means of death.

Surely if a 12 year old girl saw her family slaughtered in front of her, and then one of the men from the invading army claimed her as a wife, the ensuing sexual encounter would be rape. Can you agree with that?

I don't think you can make that statement and claim it is the only truth. As I mentioned before, these girls would have been very young and marriages in those days were almost always arranged. Girls were raised to accept who they were given to in marriage without question, in many cultures. Unless you consider it rape when a king gave his daughter to another kings son to be married and form an alliance between the two kingdoms?

Even in the history of the US and Canada, non native women were taken into native camps and raised as such to be wives to young native men. The opposite happened too. Was that rape?

 

[JacksBratt]

No, you mixed the topics up. That conversation is about your claim that God is the law.

OK let's go that route. If God is totally, unavoidably righteous and cannot sin, cannot do an unrighteous act and He made the laws of the universe how can He not be the law?

Is not every part of the Christian theology about man not being sinless and thus not being worthy of eternal life?
Is this not due to the fact that every man has sinned?
Is Christ not the only sinless man? Was He not God?
If a man could life a sinless life, would He not be like God?
Therefore, God is the law. Everyone is compared to Him. If anyone could stand up to the comparison to God's righteousness........he would be sinless. If a man could be held to the letter of the law, he too would be sinless. So God is the law. Everyone is compared to and held accountable to God or the Law, these two terms are interchangeable.

 

[Chriliman]

This is technically my introduction because I never made a thread here. But really, instead of a "hello", I'm coming here asking if there is a reason to stay.

I was born into a Christian home and indoctrinated into the faith my whole childhood. At 18 I backslid, then I got stronger in my faith and dedicated myself to reading the whole Bible. This utterly obliterated my faith.

I'm not making this post to open up a dialogue on that issue. I've already turned over every leaf on the apologetics forum and have gotten very few answers. So if you are looking to argue, you can respond to my arguments there. But I doubt I'll respond because, as stated above, I'm not convinced that I have a good reason to stay on these forums and if nothing enlightening happens on this thread then I'm done here (and my expectations are that this thread will probably be taken down and action taken against my account).

The vast majority of attempts at answering my questions have been abysmal failures, which wasn't surprising, but what surprised me was the amount of vitriol and hate Christians have spewed at me. I've participated in this, sometimes instigating and sometimes rightfully responding to unprovoked attacks, and I simply do not see the love of Christ anywhere on these forums. I have no desire to be a jerk, but even if I did I should not receive rude comments back from a Christian. Am I wrong in thinking that Christians are held to a higher standard than I am?

In my time here I've seen hatred, mockery, and willful ignorance. What I haven't seen is love or intelligent discourse. Are atheists treated that way because we're not wanted here?

I appreciate the discussion that we had together, even though we disagreed. You may not remember it and that's okay. I think both non-believers and believers bring interesting topics to the table and both can have a hard time admitting when their wrong or that the other is right. Pride will blind you from the truth, but the truth can be understood through humility. That's something I always try to remember.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

The Psalmist here is singing a song of revenge. The Babylonians killed the Jewish children in war. The Psalmist is singing that they would like to do the same to the Babylonian children. They are mourning and singing of revenge.

This psalm is showing the old testament law of an eye for an eye. This Psalm is not saying that Christians should enjoy killing children as part of the doctrine of their religion.




Moses was speaking on behalf of God. God had absolutely had it with the Midianites. They had been given numerous occasions to repent, Nineveh did repent and was spared, but the Midianites remained wicked and lead the Israelite s into apostasy. God ordered their destruction for this. When the Israelite soldiers brought these women back they were in direct violation of following Gods request due to God knowing that they would, again, lead the men into apostasy.
The young men were killed to avoid them from doing the same. The young women who were not married and virgins were probably under twelve and were not a threat to leading the men of Israel into apostasy.

God is the omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, and all-righteous “I Am” Who is over all things—so He may do whatever He wishes, so long as it is not in violation of His character. However, God does everything for a reason. Sometimes that reason may be unclear to us. In the case of the destruction of people like the Canaanites, God’s reasoning had to do with His justice. Deuteronomy 32:3-4 records: “For I will proclaim the name of Jehovah: Ascribe ye greatness unto our God. The Rock, his work is perfect; For all his ways are justice: A God of faithfulness and without iniquity, Just and right is he” . Men may not always understand God’s justice, or His reasons for exercising it as He does. As Job 4:17 asked: “ Shall mortal man be more just than God? Shall a man be more pure than his Maker?”. The fact is, God does condone killing—in the name of justice (whether it be justice in regard to one person, or a whole nation). Even in modern times, the death penalty is an acceptable means of administering justice (Romans 13:1-7; cf. Genesis 9:6). While God is all loving, He also is a God of justice, and He will execute that justice in the most propitious manner—including by means of death.




I don't think you can make that statement and claim it is the only truth. As I mentioned before, these girls would have been very young and marriages in those days were almost always arranged. Girls were raised to accept who they were given to in marriage without question, in many cultures. Unless you consider it rape when a king gave his daughter to another kings son to be married and form an alliance between the two kingdoms?

Even in the history of the US and Canada, non native women were taken into native camps and raised as such to be wives to young native men. The opposite happened too. Was that rape?

So you approve of infanticide in some cases? Before deciding whether to allow an infant to live we must take into account the child's heritage?

 

[Nihilist Virus]

I appreciate the discussion that we had together, even though we disagreed. You may not remember it and that's okay. I think both non-believers and believers bring interesting topics to the table and both can have a hard time admitting when their wrong or that the other is right. Pride will blind you from the truth, but the truth can be understood through humility. That's something I always try to remember.

I remember you. You said that y=5x+2 is meaningless.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

OK let's go that route. If God is totally, unavoidably righteous and cannot sin, cannot do an unrighteous act and He made the laws of the universe how can He not be the law?

Is not every part of the Christian theology about man not being sinless and thus not being worthy of eternal life?
Is this not due to the fact that every man has sinned?
Is Christ not the only sinless man? Was He not God?
If a man could life a sinless life, would He not be like God?
Therefore, God is the law. Everyone is compared to Him. If anyone could stand up to the comparison to God's righteousness........he would be sinless. If a man could be held to the letter of the law, he too would be sinless. So God is the law. Everyone is compared to and held accountable to God or the Law, these two terms are interchangeable.

Moses ordered the execution of infants and God personally tortured and executed David's infant son.

Infanticide, therefore, can be righteous depending on the circumstances. Correct?

 

[Cappadocious]

Nihilism makes no assumptions.

That sounds like skepticism. Where are you getting your def. of Nihilism?

There's no point where I just accept something as true even though it can't be proven.

A lot of non-Nihilists and non-skeptics would also want to say something like this. Classical Empiricists, for example. Typically skepticism is thought to be a stronger position on not knowing.

I take laws of logic for what they are - assumptions. Logic is entirely conditional.

It's interesting that you say that, because conditional statements are a logical form. So it looks like you're using a logical form to talk about logic being mere assumptions.