Hey guys

[Wolseley]

So Protestant ministers do not have the authority to interpret Scripture and decide the Truth of Scripture? So basically, all Protestants who teach something that does not coincide with the teachings of the Catholic church are teaching in error, right? If all the teachings of Protestants coincided with the Catholic church then there would be no such thing as Protestants, right? So all Protestants are in error?

Hold on, O Combative One. Let's not leap to the ramparts yet. Let's take these one by one:

So Protestant ministers do not have the authority to interpret Scripture and decide the Truth of Scripture?

Yes, they do. What they do not have, according to Catholic teaching, is the ability to legitimately administer the sacraments to Catholics. What they do in their own congregations insofar as a sacramental ministry goes is another matter entirely.

So basically, all Protestants who teach something that does not coincide with the teachings of the Catholic church are teaching in error, right?

Not necessarily. In some cases, they might, if they were teaching something like a denial of the divinity of Christ. If they deny other aspects of Catholic teaching, such as say the Marian doctrines, we would say they are teaching the Faith incompletely, rather than in error.

If all the teachings of Protestants coincided with the Catholic church then there would be no such thing as Protestants, right?

Probably not.

So all Protestants are in error?

No; see above.

 

[chelcb]

Originally posted by Reformationist
So Protestant ministers do not have the authority to interpret Scripture and decide the Truth of Scripture?  So basically, all Protestants who teach something that does not coincide with the teachings of the Catholic church are teaching in error, right?  If all the teachings of Protestants coincided with the Catholic church then there would be no such thing as Protestants, right?  So all Protestants are in error?



We receive Him by His grace which is not confined to receiving the sacraments of the Holy Catholic church.

God bless

 

Reformationist,

You kind of just answered your own question in your last comment. The HS can work within the protestant movments to bring about Gods will whatever that may be but it is not from the HS that a protestant minister or lay person can effectivly interpret scripture. Two so often will never agree and that is not coming from the ONE spirit of all truth.

Look, what I am saying is that in protestantism there are some things that are very much true and good for ones spiritual growth but you do not and will not ever have the fullness of all truth because that is only found in the Catholic Church, The big "C" Church, not little.

The teaching of the sacraments are one of them, this is truth because the bible said it is and the Church through her tradition confirms this so when I look to a protestant denomination to see if they are teaching the fullness of truth led by the HS and they reject what Jesus taught in the bible about the sacraments, I can discern that they are not teaching the fullness of faith but it does not say that they are not Christians at all sharing in the same faith.

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by Wolseley
Hold on, O Combative One.

Not being combative.  I'm asking.  I know tone and sincereity are hard to determine from the written word but give me the benefit of the doubt "oh god of all answers" .

Yes, they do. What they do not have, according to Catholic teaching, is the ability to legitimately administer the sacraments to Catholics. What they do in their own congregations insofar as a sacramental ministry goes is another matter entirely.

I see.  I thought you, or someone, said we are all Catholics, or was that with a small "c?"  Also, if Jesus is received only received through sacraments administered by people authorized by your church then how is any sacrament done by a non-Catholic valid? 

Not necessarily. In some cases, they might, if they were teaching something like a denial of the divinity of Christ. If they deny other aspects of Catholic teaching, such as say the Marian doctrines, we would say they are teaching the Faith incompletely, rather than in error.

So "the Faith" is only complete if it includes the "Marian doctrines?"  Where can I find those? 

Thanks again for your time Wolseley, a.k.a. "god of all answers."

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by chelcb
Look, what I am saying is that in protestantism there are some things that are very much true and good for ones spiritual growth but you do not and will not ever have the fullness of all truth because that is only found in the Catholic Church, The big "C" Church, not little.

So Protestants only have a partial relationship with Christ because we don't adhere to some of the teachings of the big C?

The teaching of the sacraments are one of them, this is truth because the bible said it is and the Church through her tradition confirms this so when I look to a protestant denomination to see if they are teaching the fullness of truth led by the HS and they reject what Jesus taught in the bible about the sacraments, I can discern that they are not teaching the fullness of faith but it does not say that they are not Christians at all sharing in the same faith.

I truly understand where you're coming from.  I still don't see how a lot of this stuff jibes with those three ex cathedra statements.  It seems to me that those Popes were being very specific as to who can be saved and who cannot and they seemed to put all the stock in the Catholic (Big C) church and anyone outside that (Big C) will not partake of eternal life.  It seems like a lot of this is an effort, and I don't mean this maliciously, to soften the blow.  I don't know.  I just think that certain Popes and certain Catholics really believe, though they don't say it, that all Protestants are going to hell.  There are even some Catholics on this MB who make that pretty clear by the way they refer to and talk to and about Protestants.

God bless

 

[Wolseley]

I thought you, or someone, said we are all Catholics, or was that with a small "c"?

Any time I use a capital C, I mean a Catholic in communion with the Holy See. Any other time, I usually use the terms Protestant or non-Catholic, to distinguish. All Christians are catholic, but I try to avoid use of the small c term to avoid confusion.

Also, if Jesus is received only received through sacraments administered by people authorized by your church then how is any sacrament done by a non-Catholic valid?

A sacrament, to be valid for a Catholic, must be delivered by a Catholic who believes in the sacrament and in the way that sacrament is taught by the Catholic Church. Sacraments as handled by non-Catholic Christians are binding on members of that denomination within their own communities. Nobody said that Catholic sacraments are binding on Protestants, or vice-versa. Vatican II goes into this in some detail.

So "the Faith" is only complete if it includes the "Marian doctrines?"

For Catholics, yes. For non-Catholics, no.

Where can I find those?

Cathechism of the Catholic Church, Numbers 484-511 and 963-975.

So Protestants only have a partial relationship with Christ because we don't adhere to some of the teachings of the big C?

No, it simply means that from our POV, you don't have the full doctrinal body of teaching, you have only part of it. It doesn't affect the fullness of your relationship to Christ.

 

[Miss Shelby]

I just think that certain Popes and certain Catholics really believe, though they don't say it, that all Protestants are going to hell.

There might be some Catholics who believe that, but I don't think that most do. I also think there are certain Protestants (not you)--who believe that all Catholics are going to hell. Either way, there are Pharisees on both sides of the fence...so we can safely blow them off

Michelle

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

No, it simply means that from our POV, you don't have the full doctrinal body of teaching, you have only part of it. It doesn't affect the fullness of your relationship to Christ.

No offense intended, but that sounds like double-talk. Either they do or they dont.

 

[Wolseley]

Can you have a full relationship with Christ while believing in the Assumption of Mary? Of course.

Can you have a full relationship with Christ while not believing in the Assumption of Mary? Of course.

Where is the double-talk in this?

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

I thought that they didnt have full-communion with Christ. Thats what I was told here.

 

[seebs]

I think there's a difference between beliefs about Christ and relationship with Christ. I can have a pretty good relationship with God even if I can't honestly say I'm quite sure I could *state* the Trinity doctrine, let alone tell you whether or not I believe it. My inability to form a coherent understanding of that point of doctrine doesn't keep me from praying, or being regenerated. It keeps me from answering questions about the Trinity, that's all.

 

[kern]

Originally posted by s0uljah
I thought that they didnt have full-communion with Christ. Thats what I was told here.

They aren't in full communion with the Church. Not the same thing.

-Chris

 

[chelcb]

I want Seebs to know; I loved your point. For many mentally handicapped people that could never comprehend any teachings Catholic or other this does not stop their relationship with Jesus.

From my limited human understanding the way I see the protestants and the Catholics as well as non Christians and non believers is that the mass' out reach is far beyond the Church walls.

Christ's presence on the alter, in adoration, and in all the tabernacles of the world draws down efficacious grace to fill all of us with the HS and I personally believe the mass is what makes the world turn.

Also non Catholics that do not have benefit of a sacramental life but love Jesus and truly seek union with him, I believe that our lord does come to each of them and binds himself in a spiritual union much the same way he binds himself to us as Catholics.

It is because of the sacrifice of the mass, making Jesus present to us ALL, Catholics, little c’s or big or no c at all, that his spirit can be upon anyone whom God chooses, again this is exemplary of our belief that Jesus Christ is the savior of the world and the reality of presence among us today is what sustains all of our separated brothers.

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by Wolseley
Any time I use a capital C, I mean a Catholic in communion with the Holy See. Any other time, I usually use the terms Protestant or non-Catholic, to distinguish. All Christians are catholic, but I try to avoid use of the small c term to avoid confusion.

A sacrament, to be valid for a Catholic, must be delivered by a Catholic who believes in the sacrament and in the way that sacrament is taught by the Catholic Church. Sacraments as handled by non-Catholic Christians are binding on members of that denomination within their own communities. Nobody said that Catholic sacraments are binding on Protestants, or vice-versa. Vatican II goes into this in some detail.

For Catholics, yes. For non-Catholics, no.

Cathechism of the Catholic Church, Numbers 484-511 and 963-975.

No, it simply means that from our POV, you don't have the full doctrinal body of teaching, you have only part of it. It doesn't affect the fullness of your relationship to Christ.

I see.  Well thank you again.  Your answers have been very informative.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by Miss Shelby
There might be some Catholics who believe that, but I don't think that most do. I also think there are certain Protestants (not you)--who believe that all Catholics are going to hell. Either way, there are Pharisees on both sides of the fence...so we can safely blow them off

Michelle

Thanks Michelle.  Simple and insightful.

God bless,

Don

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by chelcb
I personally believe the mass is what makes the world turn.

Wow.   

again this is exemplary of our belief that Jesus Christ is the savior of the world and the reality of presence among us today is what sustains all of our separated brothers.

Okay.  I'm not trying to get off topic but how can Jesus be the Savior of the world if not everyone in the world is saved or will be saved?  It seems that the most you could say is Jesus is the potential Savior of the world and the actual Savior of all those that have been, are, and will be saved.  Do you see my point?

God bless

 

[chelcb]

Originally posted by Reformationist
Wow.   



Okay.  I'm not trying to get off topic but how can Jesus be the Savior of the world if not everyone in the world is saved or will be saved?  It seems that the most you could say is Jesus is the potential Savior of the world and the actual Savior of all those that have been, are, and will be saved.  Do you see my point?

God bless

 

Where you are going with this should be taken to another thread and not in the Catholic section.

 

[chelcb]

If they are saved it is because of Jesus' effective, sufficent sacrafice on calvery. The same sacrafice that is present to us all catholic or not in the blessed sacrament of the alter.

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by chelcb
Where you are going with this should be taken to another thread and not in the Catholic section.

Okay.  Well, thank you for your time.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by chelcb
If they are saved it is because of Jesus' effective, sufficent sacrafice on calvery. The same sacrafice that is present to us all catholic or not in the blessed sacrament of the alter.

Is this directed at me and if so what is it in response to?

 

[Lady Grace]

I don't feel that the "mass is what makes the world go round"!

Don't get me wrong,I love my mass and the sacraments, but it is just a ceremony or rite,so to speak. I am very active in my mass as a lector and minister of the cup. 

But to me,,,,,if you don't have God in your heart and soul, the mass may very well be , just words and religious acts. OK.....one has to have the true love of God in their heart for them to truly experience what the mass and sacraments are about.(just my opinion, dont' want to offend)

I am looking at this as maybe a non-catholic or non-believer in anything might see or feel about mass. They would have no clue, how important and what it means to Catholics.

But, due to illness, I have not been able to get to my daily mass or Sunday mass,,,,,which is very disheartening for me. But just because i have not been well enough to go to mass, "doesn't mean my world has stopped"! I have my prayers in morning and evening, my rosary 3 times a day......I am a Minister of Praise, for my sister parish, so, therefore,,,,,,,,I so miss the sacrament of the Holy Eucharist........but my life is till very full because 'GOD LIVES IN MY HEART AND SOUL"! Not because I have or have not attended mass>

 

Peace and Love

Lady Grace