Hey Creationists!

[dad]

I mentioned pages ago that most business majors I know went into it for the $$. The OP is a scientist so lets stick with scientists, not that the two are mutually exlcusive.

Well, many scientists do alright.
Here is a mentch of one that passed recently.
"[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1] Edward Teller, one of the most controversial scientists of the 20th century because of his role as the developer of the hydrogen bomb and his outspoken support for an unassailable nuclear arsenal, died Sept. 9 in his home on the Stanford campus. A senior fellow at the Hoover Institution at Stanford, he was 95."
http://news-service.stanford.edu/news/2003/september24/tellerobit-924.html

Or this one..
"[/SIZE][/FONT] P. Bush Elkin's career included conducting research and development for the first hydrogen bomb and witnessing its first test in the Pacific.
An education advocate, Dr. Elkin later returned to his hometown of Midland, where he helped manage his family's ranch lands and taught high school physics. He also taught at St. Mark's School of Texas in Dallas and helped found the Dallas Arboretum."
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcon...elkinob_23met.ART.State.Edition1.4346637.html
Maybe we could look at the experts of the germ warfare research, and chemical weapons, missile guidance systems, and microchip implant wizs etc as well? Scientists can be a bit like lawyers, they hire the good ones for their purposes.

And lets stick with you. No need to gallivant all over the place. I want to know what you do.

I don't feel a need to get personal.

What's so special about the way you spend the majority of time (at work) that puts you in a position to judge anyone's choices.

What gives anyone an ability to know right from wrong, good from bad, seems to be the question there. That is easy. God provided a book.

I've been on this board for a while, and yes you are a gossip. You love to talk about people (real or imaginary I'm not sure).

Gossip is nothing close to anything I do at all. By the way, how is your affair going??

Which is why I asked you what you do with the majority of your time. We know what Jesus did in his three years as a preacher. He preached. From what I understand he wasn't doing that much carpentry at the time, no?

Probably not. So? I never claimed to be some holy one, or some Mother Teresa. Recognizing that evolution as it has been told is a crock, and that man's wisdom is foolishness doesn't require a certain degree, or occupation. I deal in ideas, it isn't personal on the net for me.

Lets be clear, you don't do any of the things that Noah, Jesus, Paul et al did nor will you.

Of course I do, get serious. They drank, ate, and did many things I do.

If you were I would suspect that you'd be spending the free time you have in communities that need service not on the net.

People need God, I would think, there are many services out there we can take or leave.

All you have left is the work-week, which is what I'm inquiring about. What do you do that is so righteous that you feel you can equate another's profession and education to TP?

I do not need any righteousness to know a liar, and a fraudulent anti god claim. Do I?? If I had any, it would be a gift from God anyhow, not something I worked up. Man's own righteousness is as filthy rags, by the way, in the sight of God.

Are you not using a computer, using technology in general to aid your existance, relying on the wicked you like to gossip about?

Gossip
1. Rumor or talk of a personal, sensational, or intimate nature.
2. A person who habitually spreads intimate or private rumors or facts.
3. Trivial, chatty talk or writing.
4. A close friend or companion.
5. Chiefly British A godparent.

Get a grip, if you use a word, try to know what it means.

You wouldn't need a doctor according to you. Did I misread your posts? All you need is god, remember?

No, I don't remember. I thought I said we can use a plumber, mechanic, doctor, etc?? If there are some around, why not use them? Are they not here for our service??

This is your response on the first page.

"No, men of this world's puny, dangerous knowledge usually have a degree to insure good bucks, (they think) for themselves. Also, I found that most highly educated folks I have ever met have what I would call no morals! Usually they embrace homosexuality, and abortion, for example, as perfectly fine. Par for the godless education course, really."

It's par for the course with your posts.

Right, that is not gossip, that is fact. Experience. Most highly educated folks can be known for certain traits. So??

Science doesn't preach anything anti or pro-god, people do.

In the name of science, what I call so called science, they do nothing but preach anti God rot. The paleo huxsters, astro physical frauds, and others that pretend to know that creation of the universe, and man was not as God said. They are the voices of darkness, by the way.The pipeline from hell.

I have no idea what you're talking about here.

To make a long story short, I was referring to man's knowledge as being restricted to the present.

 

[dad]

Actually, I have no issue with Christianity in general. If Christianity wins more converts in the future, I say good for Christianity. My issue is with Creationism.

In other words, a real God that is true, and a bible that is true.

In any case, my point was that although Creationists like yourself claim to be here to save souls, and claim that Creationism is necessary for this, you are doing an abysmally poor job of winning over converts.

Did I say I was here to 'win souls'? Must have missed that. I have tried to address the issues of evidence, and science, and their limits, where they cross paths with God's word. When I witness to people personally, science seldom even comes up, and the emphasis would be on listening, and being winsome.

In addition, I think you are actually driving people away from Christianity in general by making it look provincial, petty and stupid.

Well, I don't much care for christianity, sorry. I care for faith in God, and His word. I care about God being real, and true. I care about the rulers of darkness of this world, and how their lies need to be defeated.

While I applaude your negative results on winning converts to Creationism, I find it almost a shame you are having a similar negative effect on Christianity in general.

I partook in a science forum to address science claims, and expose so called science. If some feel that their christianity is shaken by believing the bible, and realizing that science has clear limits, that prevent it from interfering with the bible, tough.

 

[Pete Harcoff]

My graduate degrees are in law, economics, and finance, not in science. My specialty is in applying critical thinking skills to scientific ideas, and if I think they pass muster, I build a business plan off the idea and raise money in the capital markets to hire scientists, conduct research, and hopefully make lots of money.

Good, someone else coming from the business side of things. I've been trying to discuss applied evolutionary biology and real world application with creationists for some time now. Most just ignore it or handwave it away, however.

So do you know that evolutionary biology is an applied science in various fields of applied biology (mainly medicine & agriculture). And do you know that these sorts of things receive funding? Heck, Evolutionary Genomics Inc, a biotech company that applies evolutionary biology in their research, just received additional undisclosed millions in VC funding.

 

[Pete Harcoff]

Right now, we're nowhere close to understanding genomes.

And yet, contemporary genomics research involves applying evolutionary biology to further our understanding of genomes. Whoops.

 

[dad]

Hey, Ken Lay was a pretty sharp guy. Let's see what Ken said on the day he was found guilty!

emphasis added.

I don't know about why that guy thought he was set up, and innocent from charges. Do you? The point remains, that education is a big part in corporations. Why single one guy out??

"Angela C. Ayers Vice President HealthSouth Wire fraud, and conspiracy to commit wire fraud and securities fraud David Barford Chief Operating Officer Charter Communications Conspiracy to commit wire fraud Daniel Bayly Executive Merrill Lynch Conspiracy to commit wire fraud and falsify books and records Aaron Beam Chief Financial Officer HealthSouth Bank fraud Timothy N. Belden Senior Trader Enron Corp. Conspiracy to commit fraud , manipulating the California power market Mark Belnick General Counsel Tyco International Falsifying records Franklyn Bergonzi Chief Financial Officer Rite Aid Securities fraud David J. Bermingham Banker NatWest Bank Wire fraud Richard Botts Senior Vice President HealthSouth Conspiracy to commit securities fraud, falsifying books, and mail fraud Dan Boyle Finance Executive Enron Corp. Securities fraud, insider trading, and tax fraud Franklin Brown Chief Counsel and Vice Chairman Rite Aid Securities fraud James A. Brown Executive Merrill Lynch Conspiracy to commit wire fraud and falsify books and records James R. Brown Vice President of Finance Adelphia Communications Wire fraud, bank fraud, securities fraud, and conspiracy Jason Brown Vice President of Finance HealthSouth Conspiracy to commit securities fraud, falsifying books and records, and wire fraud Giles R. Darby Banker NatWest Bank Wire fraud David Duncan Former Partner Arthur Andersen Obstruction of justice Cathy C. Edwards Vice President HealthSouth Wire fraud, and conspiracy to commit wire fraud and securities fraud Douglas Faneuil Stockbroker Merrill Lynch Obstruction of justice Andrew Fastow Chief Financial Officer Enron Corp. Securities fraud, wire fraud, mail fraud, money laundering, insider trading, tax fraud, and conpiracy Lea Fastow Assistant Treasurer Enron Corp. Conspiracy to commit wire fraud, money laundering conspiracy, and filing false tax returns John M. Forney Trader Enron Corp. Manipulating the California power market Gene S. Foster Vice President Dynegy, Inc. Conspiracy to commit securities fraud Catherine Fowler Vice President HealthSouth Conspiring to mislead the auditors and to maintain false books and records Robert S. Furst Executive Merrill Lynch Conspiracy to commit wire fraud and falsify books and records Adam Gilburne Executive Just for Feet, Inc. Conspiracy to commit wire fraud and securities fraud Ben Gilsan Treasurer Enron Corp. Securities fraud, insider trading, and tax fraud Grant Graham Chief Financial Officer Qwest Communications Corporate accounting fraud Martin L. Grass Chairman and Chief Executive Rite Aid Securities fraud Thomas Hall Senior Vice President Qwest Communications Corporate accounting fraud Kevin Hannon Chief Operating Officer Enron Broadband Services Securities fraud, wire fraud, and money laundering Emery Harris Vice President of Finance HealthSouth Conspiracy to commit wire fraud and securities fraud Will Hicks Vice President HealthSouth Conspiracy to commit securities fraud, falsifying books, and mail fraud Joseph Hirko President Enron Broadband Services Securities fraud, wire fraud, and money laundering Joseph A. Hofmeister Vice President Kmart Fraud, conspiracy, and making false statements Kevin Howard Vice President of Finance Enron Broadband Services Conspiracy, securities fraud, wire fraud, and making false statements to FBI agents Kent Kalwarf Chief Financial Officer Charter Communications Conspiracy to commit wire fraud Asif M. Khan Executive Vice President NewCom, Inc. Fraud, money laundering, filing false statements, and conspiracy Sultan W. Khan President and Chief Executive NewCom, Inc. Fraud, money laundering, filing false statements, and conspiracy Michael Kopper Finance Executive Enron Corp. Conspiracy to commit wire fraud and money laundering Dennis Kozlowski Chairman and Chief Executive Tyco International Grand larceny, enterprise corruption, falsifying records, and sales tax evasion Michael Krautz Senior Director of Accounting Enron Broadband Services Conspiracy, wire fraud, securities fraud, making false statements to FBI agents Douglas T. Lake Executive Vice President Westar Energy, Inc. Conspiracy to defraud, circumventing internal accounting controls, falsifying books and records, wire fraud, submitting false statements, and engaging in monetary transactions derived from an unlawful activity Thomas W. Lambach Chief Financial Officer Quaker Steel and Alloy Wire fraud and conspiracy Lawrence M. Lawyer Finance Executive Enron Corp. Filing false income tax return and failing to report taxable income Kenneth Livesay Chief Information Officer HealthSouth Conspiracy to commit wire fraud and securities fraud and to falsify financial information Philip Markovitz Senior Vice President Rite Aid Conspiracy to obstruct justice Michael Martin Chief Financial Officer HealthSouth Wire fraud, and conspiracy to commit wire fraud and securities fraud David McCall Executive Charter Communications Conspiracy to commit wire fraud Malcom McVay Treasurer HealthSouth Wire fraud, and conspiracy to commit wire fraud and securities fraud Enio A. Montini, Jr. Senior Vice President Kmart Fraud, conspiracy, and making false statements Rebecca Kay Morgan Group Vice President HealthSouth Wire fraud, and conspiracy to commit wire fraud and securities fraud Michael C. Mulcahey Director of Internal Reporting Adelphia Communications Wire fraud, bank fraud, securities fraud, and conspiracy Gary S. Mulgrew Banker NatWest Bank Wire fraud David Myers Former Controller WorldCom Securities fraud Timothy J. Noonan President and Chief Operations Officer Rite Aid Withholding information from Rite Aid's internal investigators Troy Normand General Accounting Executive WorldCom Securities fraud and conspiracy Williams T. Owens Chief of Financial Operations HealthSouth Conspiracy to commit wire fraud and securities fraud Frank P. Quattrone Banker Credit Suisse First Boston Obstruction of justice and destroying evidence Kenneth Rice Chairman Enron Broadband Services Securities fraud, wire fraud, and money laundering Jeffrey Ricter Senior Trader Enron Corp. Manipulating the California power market John J. Rigas Chief Executive Officer Adelphia Communications Wire fraud, bank fraud, securities fraud, and conspiracy Michael Rigas Executive Vice President Adelphia Communications Wire fraud, bank fraud, securities fraud, and conspiracy Timothy Rigas Chief Financial Officer Adelphia Communications Wire fraud, bank fraud, securities fraud, and conspiracy Helen C. Sharkey Accounting Manager Dynegy, Inc. Conspiracy to commit securities fraud Rex Shelby Senior Vice President Enron Broadband Services Securities fraud, wire fraud, and money laundering James Smith Senior Vice President Charter Communications Conspiracy to commit wire fraud Weston Smith Chief Financial Officer HealthSouth Securities fraud and wire fraud Erik S. Sorkin Executive Vice President Rite Aid Lying to the grand jury Joseph Stewart Human Resource Manager Quaker Steel and Alloy Wire fraud and conspiracy Martha Stewart Chairman and CEO Martha Stewart Living Omnimedia Conspiracy, obstruction of justice, and securities fraud Scott Sullivan Chief Financial Officer WorldCom Securities fraud and conspiracy Mark H. Swartz Chief Financial Officer Tyco International Sales tax evasion Bryan Treadway Assistant Controller Qwest Communications Corporate accounting fraud Steven C. Veen Chief Financial Officer NewCom, Inc. Fraud, money laundering, filing false statements, and conspiracy Betty Vinson General Accounting Executive WorldCom Securities fraud and conspiracy Samuel Waksal Chief Executive ImClone Systems Insider trading John Walker Vice President Qwest Communications Corporate accounting fraud Timothy Werth Director of Accounting Adelphia Communications Securities fraud, wire fraud, and bank fraud David C. Wittig Chief Executive Officer Westar Energy, Inc. Conspiracy to defraud, circumventing internal accounting controls, falsifying books and records, wire fraud, submitting false statements, and engaging in monetary transactions derived from an unlawful activity Burford Yates, Jr. Director of General Accounting WorldCom Securities fraud Scott Yeager Senior Vice President Enron Broadband Services Securities fraud, wire fraud, and money laundering"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_corporate_executives_charged_with_crimes

Yes, we see how all who say "Lord, Lord", are not necessarily doing God's will, don't we?

True, but when someone seems to feel they are innocent, I would prefer to withhold judgment, myself, until the actual facts were known.

 

[dad]

I would dearly love to know what Dad's field of specialization is. I have no doubt he does something. I would think if he were a stronger individual, one with nothing to hide, he'd be open to telling us what his field of expertise is so that we might treat it as he treats others' fields.

I'm not asking for specifics. Just general field of endeavor.

Try addressing the ideas. I do.

The ironic thing is that as a degreed scientist I don't make as much as people with less education and training around me.

Why is that ironic? Some people with degrees do menial work, when the pickins are slim.

Part of that is my issue, I do science because I love science. I honestly love getting up on Monday morning and going into the lab.

Great. Many people like their work.

Do I wish I were paid more? Sure! That's human. Did I go into science because I wanted to make a living. Yes. Did I go into it just because it was a way to make a buck?

Nope.

Right, so one needs to make a living, and one sacrifices along the way. So?

I once had a great undergrad student in one of my geology classes I was teaching. He was really good and as such I pointed out he might consider majoring in geology or science. He said he would love to, but his dad was paying for college so he was forced to take a business degree.

If I had just wanted the almighty dolla I guarantee everyone that I knew exactly where that dollar was located. It was down the quad over in the school of business administration.

Did someone say that getting a degree meant one only wanted dollars??

Of course that would have been the death of my spirit. I have a serious aversion to doing something just for some economic return. In fact, it is highly likely I couldn't perform just for money.

Most people say similar things. If we asked the president of the US why he did what he does, I doubt it would be said that it was just for money.

So, while I'm as prone to kvetch about my salary, I will never go get an MBA, and I have already plighted my troth on the "Technical Development Career Path" at my job. I've signed the papers and committed myself to less money than I could make. And I work for a Fortune 100 company. I work in a division of this company that makes a material that, I'm willing to guess, just about everyone on this board has come in contact with.

Thanks, your service to man is noted.

But I'll never see that scratch.

No problem, it doesn't seem to matter to you anyhow.

But every Monday morning I'm up at 5:00 and out the door to voluntarily do a 10-11 hour day poring over statistics and chemical formulae.

My, such quiet unselfishness desrves a pat on the back. -pat pat.

That, to a great extent is reward enough. It pretty much has to be.

Of course, the salary has little to do with it. So, from all of mankind, thanks for your service.

Quoted for truth.

Too bad that science does get used in teaching a pack of lies.

 

[Split Rock]

Genomes are incredibly complex. There's a term called "junk DNA" used to describe the 80-90% of the genome that has no identifiable purpose. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junk_DNA. This is as completely BS as the so-called vestigial organs that evolutionists argued was proof of evolution 150 years ago. A YEC will say that every single part of our genome serves an important purpose, and the YECs will be proven correct, even if it takes another 150 years. So it's foolish to say we are 95% similar to monkeys until we fully understand RNA and DNA. Right now, we're nowhere close to understanding genomes. Regardless, humans are so vastly different and superior to chimps that your statement that we are 95% similar to chimps is absurd on its face. The fact that monkeys have five fingers on each hand, along with other assorted phenotypic characteristics, does not do justice to the incredible power of the human mind compared to every other animal in creation (unless I'm having this conversation with a monkey).

Claiming that DNA is complex does not answer my question. Evolution explains why our DNA sequence is 95-96% similar to that of chimpanzees. Evolution explains why our DNA is more similar to chimpanzees than to dogs and more similar to dogs than to fish and more similar to fish than to apple trees. Where is the YEC explanation that is more elegant and convincing?

Let's move to geology. For one thing, oil, natural gas, coal, etc. are formed under intense and sudden heat and pressure. We can recreate fossil fuels in a lab under such conditions. When geologists go hunting for fossil fuels, they usually find them pooled in a single vein buried under large, varying amounts of sedimentary rock. This is consistent with a lush ecosystem in which a large volume of water strips the vegetation, causes the vegetation to agglomerate, followed by large sedimentary deposition on top of the vegetation. It isn't consistent with millions of years of slow deposition. In that case, we'd expect to see several hundred or several thousand feet of accumulated organic matter from millions of years of successive vegetation growth, and see that virtually everywhere on land.

Ignoring the fact that none of this has anything to do with the fossil record, it is a poor explanation that all the oil and coal we have in the earth came form a one year flood, even if there was more plant life at the time. In fact, if you took all the fossils that exist and claimed they represent organisms that existed at the same time, they would have to be living on top of each other, even if they were able to cover every square inch of the planet.

When I was a kid, I visited Dinosaur National Monument in Utah, where I saw dinosaur fossils buried in a hundred feet or more of sediminary rock. Apparently, the visitor center and the rock face is now closed. Anyway, bones must fossilize rapidly after immersion in some sort of muddy substrate, or else the bones would be broken down over time and never fossilize intact. The formation at Dinosaur National Monument is consistent a herd of dinosaurs being suddenly buried by a huge mud flow. I didn't notice any evidence of the classic "fossil record" evolution in what I saw--the dinosaurs looked to be roughly the same size from top to bottom. However, even if the larger fossils were on top and the smaller fossils were on the bottom, there is a far simpler explanation than long, slow evolution. Go to your junk drawer. Open it up. Inside, you'll see that all the small objects, like pins and paperclips, have settled to the bottom while the large objects are on top. When the great flood swept the world, large parts of the ecosystem was enveloped in massive amounts of muddy water of varying consistence. Within that muddy substrate, the smaller animals settled to the bottom while the larger animals were on top, sorting themselves by size. Subsequent geologic upheaval deposited widely varying amounts of rock on top of the mud, depending on the location. The nature of the geologic upheaval could be the subject of an entire book, and it's a lot of fun reading about. The kid's cartoon "The Land Before Time" gets some of it right, in reference to the huge rift that opened up, separating the baby dinosaur from his mama. When I look at a topographic map, it seems to me that the Mid-Atlantic Ridge is likely where the "fountains of the great deep" opened up, as described in Genesis.

But fossils are not sorted in the column by size. We find large animals with small animals. You find bacteria through out most of the column, but dinosaurs only in Triassic, Jurassic and Cretaceous rock. We do not find spores or pollen separated from their parent structures, nor do we find shark teeth in layers lower than shark skeletons.

 

[Morcova]

How about Mother Teresa living for years in pretty well the poorest place on earth, trying to help people? How about the martyrs? How about many, if not most charities, and do gooder endeavors on earth? How about their education, would many not sacrifice as much as Mat?

YOUR sacrifices you dolt.

 

[dad]

YOUR sacrifices you dolt.

My sacrifices? I, like Livingstone said, have never made a sacrifice. It isn't about me.

 

[FishFace]

I [...] have never made a sacrifice.

Exactly.

So why do you feel justified in discarding other people's effort so blithely?

 

[dad]

Exactly.

So why do you feel justified in discarding other people's effort so blithely?

Sacrifices and efforts for what?? To secure an income? To get good at anti bible blather?

Should I laud the cross maker's expertise, who made the cross of Jesus? The bomb maker's expertise at blowing people up? The average Joe scientist's efforts at getting a grant?? WOMD specialists, at designing weapons that can kill millions? Etc etc.

It all depends on what efforts. Some are good, some are bad.

 

[Baggins]

Let's move to geology.

Goody

For one thing, oil, natural gas, coal, etc. are formed under intense and sudden heat and pressure.

Wrong, he shoots he misses. I do love your hubris that allows you to make statements like this, completely without any evidence it has to be said, incredibly amusing though.

A simple trip to wikipedia would have put you right, but what are facts when you are in full rant mode eh?

Oil actually forms at fairly low temperatures in nature, kerogen is cooked at modest temperatures and pressures over extended periods of time to produce oil.

From wikipedia

I

f the likelihood of there being a source rock is thought to be high, the next matter to address is the state of thermal maturity of the source, and the timing of maturation. Maturation of source rocks (see diagenesis and fossil fuels) depends strongly on temperature, such that the majority of oil generation occurs in the 60° to 120°C range. Gas generation starts at similar temperatures, but may continue up beyond this range, perhaps as high as 200°C.

I suppose it depends on whether you think 60 degrees counts as intense heat

I love it when creationists are hopelessly wrong it makes the rest of their arguments dismissable. If you don't even know how hydrocarbons are produced how the heck are yo going to be right about the rest of this.

Let's see

We can recreate fossil fuels in a lab under such conditions.

Indeed we can, although we tend to use heat alone as it is the major component of hydrocarbon manufacture.

When geologists go hunting for fossil fuels, they usually find them pooled in a single vein buried under large, varying amounts of sedimentary rock.

This is a very unsatisfactory explanation of my job, I am an exploration geophysicist. Pooled isn't an adequate explanation of how hydro carbons collect. They don't collect in veins, although they are usually found in sedimentary rocks, I'll give you that one.

This is consistent with a lush ecosystem in which a large volume of water strips the vegetation, causes the vegetation to agglomerate, followed by large sedimentary deposition on top of the vegetation.

Not completely and utterly wrong but wrong enough so as to make no odds. Most oil is not formed by vegetation but from the remains of micro-flora specifically algae. Type one kerogen. Most laymen with no understanding of petroleum geology tend to assume, as you have, that oil is formed from vegetation, not so. Some gas and most coal form from vegetation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerogen

It isn't consistent with millions of years of slow deposition.

Well your ideas about hydrocarbon generation aren't consistent with reality so I will say you are wrong.

In that case,

Your case isn't correct at the very start so everything else you say is wrong as well.

we'd expect to see several hundred or several thousand feet of accumulated organic matter from millions of years of successive vegetation growth, and see that virtually everywhere on land.

Why on earth would you expect to see this? It isn't just production of material that is important but deposition and preservation as well. There are cases when large accumulation sof vegetation are preserved, coal swamps, peat bogs, but these are by no means the rule, they are special cases.

I think your dramatic ignorance of basic geology is leading you astray here. I would recommend some basic geology texts before you venture into these unfathomed waters again.

When I was a kid, I visited Dinosaur National Monument in Utah, where I saw dinosaur fossils buried in a hundred feet or more of sediminary rock.

And that, apparently, is as far as your geological education went.

Anyway, bones must fossilize rapidly after immersion in some sort of muddy substrate, or else the bones would be broken down over time and never fossilize intact.

I don't know why you continue to make statements like this as if you actually know what you are talking about. fossilisation is a wee bit more complicated than that:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fossilisation

The formation at Dinosaur National Monument is consistent a herd of dinosaurs being suddenly buried by a huge mud flow.

Citation of evidence? I thought these were the remains of dinosaurs washed down a river valley by flood waters and then buried on an alluvial plain.

I didn't notice any evidence of the classic "fossil record" evolution in what I saw--

Unsuprising considering your ignorance of the basics of geology.

the dinosaurs looked to be roughly the same size from top to bottom. However, even if the larger fossils were on top and the smaller fossils were on the bottom, there is a far simpler explanation than long, slow evolution.

Fossilisation of the dinosaurs in this national park has got zip to do with evolution, they all died and were buried and fossilisied within a short time period, you won't find evolutionary chains by looking at a bone bed with the same geological age.

Go to your junk drawer. Open it up. Inside, you'll see that all the small objects, like pins and paperclips, have settled to the bottom while the large objects are on top.

You often find that people with a poor understanding of a subject make simplistic and completely flawed analogies. The fossil record isn't sorted from small animals at the bottom to larger ones at the top. There were large fossil animals around in the Cambrian

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anomalocaris

and there are small, microscopic fossils found in very recent sediments:

When the great flood swept the world, large parts of the ecosystem was enveloped in massive amounts of muddy water of varying consistence. Within that muddy substrate, the smaller animals settled to the bottom while the larger animals were on top, sorting themselves by size.

Sadly for you this is not what we find in the geological record

Subsequent geologic upheaval deposited widely varying amounts of rock on top of the mud, depending on the location.

You seem to be under the impression that there is just one massive flood deposit chock full of fossils, again you are let down by a complete ignorance of very basic geology.

here are a few rock formations, by no means rare, that are unexplainable by a global flood.

Chalk
Coal cyclothems
Desert sandstones
evaporites
Beach sandstones

I could go on and on and on.

There is a reason why Christian geologists decided 200 years ago that the noachian flood had been falsified as a scientific model. You'd do well look at the evidence they looked at, it is impossible to come to a different conclusion if you have a modicum of honesty and intelligence.

Google William Buckland for a illustration of this story:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Buckland

Dean of Westminster Abbey no less, so probably a good enough Christian for most people.

The nature of the geologic upheaval could be the subject of an entire book, and it's a lot of fun reading about. The kid's cartoon "The Land Before Time" gets some of it right,

Oh. My. Word, you get your geological education from children's cartoons.

That actually explains rather a lot.

Most people go to text books and peer reviewed scientific papers to gain knowledge, if you have been using children's cartoons you have been doing it wrong.

in reference to the huge rift that opened up,

There are rifts everywhere throughout geological times, There is one running through the East of Africa today. There are many under the Oceans.

separating the baby dinosaur from his mama. When I look at a topographic map, it seems to me that the Mid-Atlantic Ridge is likely where the "fountains of the great deep" opened up, as described in Genesis.[

I'm sure this seems plausible to you but you don't really have even a basic understanding of geology.

I know you will take this badly as you consider yourself a learned man; but no one can know everything, and you will have to accept that geology is a subject where your education is massively deficient.

Lay off the kid's cartoons as scientific primers as well

 

[FishFace]

Sacrifices and efforts for what?? To secure an income? To get good at anti bible blather?

To help you in your everyday life?

 

[MasterOfKrikkit]

What gives anyone an ability to know right from wrong, good from bad, seems to be the question there. That is easy. God provided a book.

Easy to determine right from wrong using God's book? OK, I state that the square root of 2 cannot be written as a ratio of two integers with no common factors. Right or wrong? Chapter and verse, please.

If you can't give me a Biblical reference, then I'll even let you do with "common sense" or "general knowledge". But no math. Because, of course, that would require specialized knowledge about the subject at hand.

Get a grip, if you use a word, try to know what it means.

You owe me an irony meter. Now, how come you don't have to know what science is before you use it to spout nonsense?

No, I don't remember. I thought I said we can use a plumber, mechanic, doctor, etc?? If there are some around, why not use them? Are they not here for our service??

OK, so why not use scientists for science. You call a plumber for plumbing. Do you then tell the plumber that he shouldn't be using the 3" defrangulated sproffle valve for a flow rate of 2.1 gallons/minute? Or do you just let a trained plumber do the plumbing that he's better trained than you to do? Most normal people leave the plumber to it, and judge them by their results. Thaumaturgy's whole point in this post is that he'd like people to do the same with scientists. (And if you don't like the results scientists have achieved, please throw your computer and medicines and automobile and ... out the window.)

They are the voices of darkness, by the way.The pipeline from hell.

And from another post, a big, pointless list of fraudulent executives. What was that supposed to demonstrate? That power corrupts. Yes, Lord Acton was way ahead of you there. You state that these people were educated. And...? I really hope you're not about to commit a correlation/causality fallacy. Besides, where's the list of common-or-garden research scientists (who are more educated than business execs) NOT convicted of fraud?

 

[thaumaturgy]

Let's move to geology. For one thing, oil, natural gas, coal, etc. are formed under intense and sudden heat and pressure.

Incorrect. The process is anything but "sudden". In point of fact the process takes quite a bit of time. That gets back to the whole kinetics of the process and the type of materials you get out of a given "batch".

When geologists go hunting for fossil fuels, they usually find them pooled in a single vein

Sorry True-Blue but you better stick to your business and legal topics. This is demonstrably untrue.

I spent some time working for Peabody Coal and correlating coal seams in southwestern Illinois. Let me tell you, there is often no "single vein". Vein doesn't really apply, but it is informally used sometimes, but generally coal beds are tabular and of a large areal extent.

But further there are often many many layers of coal separated by non-coal sedimentary rock indicating that there were numerous times when there was a swamp which was then covered by a shallow sea, which then dried back to a land-based swamp on the edge of a continent, and then was covered again by shallow sea. Repeat several times in places.

Considering that, if I recall, 10 feet of compressed plant material goes into making about a foot of coal (rough rule o' thumb) you can do the math for how long a swamp would have to be in existence to make a 5 foot seam of coal, let alone repeat this process over and over and over and over in an area.

And that's just Illinois.

buried under large, varying amounts of sedimentary rock. This is consistent with a lush ecosystem in which a large volume of water strips the vegetation, causes the vegetation to agglomerate, followed by large sedimentary deposition on top of the vegetation.

This may sound impressive to you because you thought it up yourself, but please do go pick up a coal geology textbook to see what coal actually looks like.

It isn't consistent with millions of years of slow deposition.

So you really have never seen a coal up close have you? Wow. You know you can hook up with a local community college. They might run a field trip to an open pit mine somewhere. Please, go look. Learn what geology actually says then come back and tell us your "hypotheses".

In that case, we'd expect to see several hundred or several thousand feet of accumulated organic matter from millions of years of successive vegetation growth, and see that virtually everywhere on land.

OK, I had to dig for this a bit but I found a scan of one section of the Illinois geologic column highlighting ONE group, the Kewanee Group as an example:

Now granted it is a bit hard to read but do look at the numerous separated black bands. Those are coals. The fun thing about it is they are separated by non-coal rock. What this shows are regionally extensive layers of coal indicating MANY times of well-established coal swamps.

Many of these, like the Danville No. 7, and Herrin No. 6 are quite minable, that means they are relatively thick. Several feet. Remember the 10' to 1' conversion? Well the Herrin averages more than 6' thick in parts of Illinois. That means it took about 60' of vegetation in relatively calm conditions to generate that much coal.

And there are several layers in this section alone. The layers in between show different types of geology. Remember, unless the Noachian Flood happened a whole bunch of times, this isn't going to provide much support for a single global flood.

Anyway, bones must fossilize rapidly after immersion in some sort of muddy substrate

Actually the process of taphonomy and fossilization take place in a number of different means. One of the most common is the slow replacement of one material by an inorganic material.

That is controlled by the SOLUBILITY of the materials involved. If you find a bone (an inorganic material in large part) that has been replaced by silicic minerals you are looking at something that occured over a long time, if only because silica is not very soluble until you get to extremely high pH, not a common occurence in groundwater, which is usually carrying a small amount of silica. So you know it takes time.

Think of the Petrified Forest in Arizona. Silica replacing plant material. Don't even think about the plant material, think about how much silica it would take to replace a tree. Now keep in mind that silica (SiO2) has the solubility of only about 120ppm at pH 6 and 25degC. That's 120mg/kg of water. Now if you bury a tree and flush groundwater through it (because remember, you have to protect the tree from rotting away at the surface), think how much water moving THROUGH ROCK (because remember, you had to bury it so it isn't in some "flood" condition here, it's buried away from oxygen) it would take to systematically replace an entire TREE with SiO2. Groundwater doesn't usually just GUSH through rock, it usually percolates somewhat slowly. And if for every kg of water you only get 120mg of SiO2, just do the math.

And remember, it's taking place at such a rate so as to preserve the wood features on a nearly cellular level of the wood:

Easier to do more quickly with other more soluble minerals.

But again, this is where an appreciation of the details of kinetics and chemical systems would help you.

, or else the bones would be broken down over time and never fossilize intact.

The key is that they have to be isolated form those conditions that would lead to their breakdown. In the case of bones, well, that isn't so hard to imagine. Once isolated, then the slow replacement or fossilization processes can occur.

The formation at Dinosaur National Monument is consistent a herd of dinosaurs being suddenly buried by a huge mud flow.

I am not that familiar with DNM, but I can tell you that indeed in paleontology there are fossil assemblages that are called, if I recall, thanatocoenoses, or death assemblages. Like this example. But indeed that is not every fossil assemblage, nor is it a reasonable model for the sum total of vastness of fossils.

The kid's cartoon "The Land Before Time" gets some of it right, in reference to the huge rift that opened up, separating the baby dinosaur from his mama.

Please, True, if you are at the "Land Before Time" level of paleontology, take my advice and take a paleontology class. Don't waste the time of people who have spent years and extensive time studying this stuff with flippant examples from a cartoon.

If you have a valid point, surely there is more than a fanciful children's cartoon to support it.

 

[Vene]

OK, so why not use scientists for science. You call a plumber for plumbing. Do you then tell the plumber that he shouldn't be using the 3" defrangulated sproffle valve for a flow rate of 2.1 gallons/minute? Or do you just let a trained plumber do the plumbing that he's better trained than you to do? Most normal people leave the plumber to it, and judge them by their results. Thaumaturgy's whole point in this post is that he'd like people to do the same with scientists. (And if you don't like the results scientists have achieved, please throw your computer and medicines and automobile and ... out the window.)

You can go further than that. Throw away anything with plastic. Throw away all your medicine. Throw out your food (what, you don't think farmers has used modern science to improve their crop yields). Throw out anything that needs electricity. Toss out any clothing that's made with polyester.

 

[Braunwyn]

Genomes are incredibly complex. There's a term called "junk DNA" used to describe the 80-90% of the genome that has no identifiable purpose. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junk_DNA. This is as completely BS as the so-called vestigial organs that evolutionists argued was proof of evolution 150 years ago. A YEC will say that every single part of our genome serves an important purpose, and the YECs will be proven correct, even if it takes another 150 years.

I think you're jumping the gun. YECS will be proven correct about junk DNA. How so specifically? I havent' come across this particular branch of argument. The purpose of noncoding DNA is still unknown but it's not as if there isn't speculation, research, etc. In the last genetics class I took it was made clear that junk DNA may not be junk at all. I also think the term junk should be junked.

So it's foolish to say we are 95% similar to monkeys until we fully understand RNA and DNA. Right now, we're nowhere close to understanding genomes. Regardless, humans are so vastly different and superior to chimps that your statement that we are 95% similar to chimps is absurd on its face. The fact that monkeys have five fingers on each hand, along with other assorted phenotypic characteristics, does not do justice to the incredible power of the human mind compared to every other animal in creation (unless I'm having this conversation with a monkey).

As it stands, we have found more similiaries than differences. If we were so vastly different (from any animal let alone chimps) than pharma would come to a screeching halt. Re: to humans being superior, I think it depends on the context.

 

[MasterOfKrikkit]

You can go further than that. Throw away anything with plastic. Throw away all your medicine. Throw out your food (what, you don't think farmers has used modern science to improve their crop yields). Throw out anything that needs electricity. Toss out any clothing that's made with polyester.

That was the point of the ellipsis; I realized I'd never be able to list them all.

Also, you have to throw out clothes with polyester anyway -- they're an abomination before the Lord

 

[Braunwyn]

Well, many scientists do alright.
Here is a mentch of one that passed recently.
"[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1] Edward Teller, one of the most controversial scientists of the 20th century because of his role as the developer of the hydrogen bomb and his outspoken support for an unassailable nuclear arsenal, died Sept. 9 in his home on the Stanford campus. A senior fellow at the Hoover Institution at Stanford, he was 95."[/SIZE][/FONT]
[SIZE=-1][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]http://news-service.stanford.edu/news/2003/september24/tellerobit-924.html[/FONT][/SIZE]

Did you read your article? First of all this does not address getting a degree for the money. Second, your article states "Along with Stanislaw Ulam, Teller designed the first hydrogen bomb. Teller also was influential in the decision by the Truman administration to produce the bomb over the objections of much of the scientific community. "

Which side are you arguing?

"His testimony against physicist J. Robert Oppenheimer, the fallout of the H-bomb dispute, made Teller a pariah to many of his colleagues, further diverting his career from science to defense politics, and causing him profound sorrow. Some old associates refused to speak to him for more than 30 years. "

And you just argued against yourself with this

"At an early age, Teller said, he learned the fun of mathematics. He would stay awake in bed working out mathematical problems such as computing the number of seconds in a day. His father was unhappy when Teller announced he wanted to be a mathematician.
"My father said I couldn't make a living that way, so we compromised, a little painfully, on chemistry. But I cheated. I studied chemistry and mathematics. After two years, my father gave up and told me to study what I wanted," he recalled. "

What in the world does this have to do with a person making decision in the name of money? C'mon dad, this is ridulous. You are making "scientists" look squeaky clean, which they aren't, by linking an artical stating that the community ostracized Teller.

Scientists can be a bit like lawyers, they hire the good ones for their purposes.

Again, where is the argument that scientist got into it for the money and where is the argument that their education and choices are equated to TP? If anything, once again, you have shown here that such choices are far from worthless. If anything they can have real consequences. If I were to provide two links as evidence of two scientists that A. didn't go into it for the money-Teller B. their eduction and profession obviously isn't worthless, but dangerous -Elkin, I would use your links.

And your brother YEC wants to imply that scientists lack critical thinking. lol, now that's funny. He needs to get his own camp in line. Read the articles you link, think about how they relate to your argument, and then post them as evidence for your point. What you're doing now is nonsensical.

I don't feel a need to get personal.

Nobody asked you to get personal. I don't want to know your name, where you live, work, etc. Saying that you teach history, run a grocery store, are a stay-at-home-dad, etc is no more personal than stating your gender. The way it looks is that you are in an industry that might forfeit your credibility as the great judge lending to your hypocrisy.

What gives anyone an ability to know right from wrong, good from bad, seems to be the question there. That is easy. God provided a book.

How is your assumption that scientists get their education in the name of money, or that their education and profession is worthless, reliant on the ability to know right and wrong? Please share this twisted pearl of wisdom.

Gossip is nothing close to anything I do at all.

Yes it is. And you practice Lashon hara, which I assume you are familiar with.

"
Lashon hara (or Loshon hora) (Hebrew לשון הרע; "evil tongue") is the prohibition in Jewish Law of telling gossip, truthful remarks about a non-present person or party. It should not be confused with the prohibition of Motzei Shem Rah, slander, untrue remarks.

The main prohibition against lashon hara is derived from Leviticus 19:16 [1] : "Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people; neither shalt thou stand idly by the blood of thy neighbour: I am the LORD.". The Talmud (tractate Erchin 15b) lists lashon hara as one of the causes of the Biblical malady of tzaraath. In Sotah 42a, the Talmud states that habitual speakers of lashon hara are not tolerated in God's presence. Similar strong denouncements can be found in various places in Jewish literature.[2"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lashon_hara

You engaged in the Lashon Hara in this very thread.

Probably not. So? I never claimed to be some holy one, or some Mother Teresa. Recognizing that evolution as it has been told is a crock, and that man's wisdom is foolishness doesn't require a certain degree, or occupation. I deal in ideas, it isn't personal on the net for me.

You throw stones.

People need God, I would think, there are many services out there we can take or leave.

Translation - "I do nothing worthy of being judge and jury"

I do not need any righteousness to know a liar, and a fraudulent anti god claim. Do I?? If I had any, it would be a gift from God anyhow, not something I worked up. Man's own righteousness is as filthy rags, by the way, in the sight of God.

Look in the mirror when you discuss man's righteousness because you seem to be drowning in your own.

Gossip
1. Rumor or talk of a personal, sensational, or intimate nature.
2. A person who habitually spreads intimate or private rumors or facts.
3. Trivial, chatty talk or writing.
4. A close friend or companion.
5. Chiefly British A godparent.

Get a grip, if you use a word, try to know what it means.

See above.

No, I don't remember. I thought I said we can use a plumber, mechanic, doctor, etc?? If there are some around, why not use them? Are they not here for our service??

I think it's poor form to use people as you will and then berate them.

Right, that is not gossip, that is fact. Experience. Most highly educated folks can be known for certain traits. So??

That's called stereotyping and when you throw it in your negative light it's closer to bigotry. One thing educated people have in common is that they are educated. Beyond that you are stereotyping.

In the name of science, what I call so called science, they do nothing but preach anti God rot. The paleo huxsters, astro physical frauds, and others that pretend to know that creation of the universe, and man was not as God said. They are the voices of darkness, by the way.The pipeline from hell.

Oh, please. It would be like saying the rantings of some christians speak for christianity. Here's a little "in" for you. I work with dozens of scientists, hundreds in my time, and you know what? God never comes up. You, and christianity never come up. No one cares. Most are simply concerned with their work. The few who have an agenda is just that, a few.

 

[Braunwyn]

Goody
Wrong, he shoots he misses. I do love your hubris that allows you to make statements like this, completely without any evidence it has to be said, incredibly amusing though.

...

I know you will take this badly as you consider yourself a learned man; but no one can know everything, and you will have to accept that geology is a subject where your education is massively deficient.

Lay off the kid's cartoons as scientific primers as well

Great post Baggins. If True_Blue want to make lots of money off science he may need to re-think his strategy.