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Hey Creationists!

TheManeki

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Thaum, thanks for posting all this. Your words are always welcome. :man-hug:

Since so many creationists seem to have trouble understanding how to debate in this forum, I have to wonder if they are really here as an attempt to evangelize us heathens and scoundrels.

If so, this has to be some of the strangest evangelizing I've seen since the days when Bob Jones University students would lurk outside my dorm on Friday nights, waiting to pounce on us and witness as we returned from our bacchanals. From the countless examples on this board, I see a faith that promises all the answers while providing none, a faith that promotes unthinking, unquestioning obedience and constant guilt that Jesus Died For Our Sins.

Fundamentalism: not fun, not mental.
 
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Vene

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If I had just wanted the almighty dolla I guarantee everyone that I knew exactly where that dollar was located. It was down the quad over in the school of business administration.

Of course that would have been the death of my spirit. I have a serious aversion to doing something just for some economic return. In fact, it is highly likely I couldn't perform just for money.
That's a relief, I'm not the only one who thinks this way.
 
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Braunwyn

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I would dearly love to know what Dad's field of specialization is. I have no doubt he does something. I would think if he were a stronger individual, one with nothing to hide, he'd be open to telling us what his field of expertise is so that we might treat it as he treats others' fields.

I'm not asking for specifics. Just general field of endeavor.
Maybe he's a business man lol

The ironic thing is that as a degreed scientist I don't make as much as people with less education and training around me.

Part of that is my issue, I do science because I love science. I honestly love getting up on Monday morning and going into the lab.

Do I wish I were paid more? Sure! That's human. Did I go into science because I wanted to make a living. Yes. Did I go into it just because it was a way to make a buck?

Nope.

I once had a great undergrad student in one of my geology classes I was teaching. He was really good and as such I pointed out he might consider majoring in geology or science. He said he would love to, but his dad was paying for college so he was forced to take a business degree.

If I had just wanted the almighty dolla I guarantee everyone that I knew exactly where that dollar was located. It was down the quad over in the school of business administration.

Of course that would have been the death of my spirit. I have a serious aversion to doing something just for some economic return. In fact, it is highly likely I couldn't perform just for money.

So, while I'm as prone to kvetch about my salary, I will never go get an MBA, and I have already plighted my troth on the "Technical Development Career Path" at my job. I've signed the papers and committed myself to less money than I could make. And I work for a Fortune 100 company. I work in a division of this company that makes a material that, I'm willing to guess, just about everyone on this board has come in contact with.

But I'll never see that scratch.

But every Monday morning I'm up at 5:00 and out the door to voluntarily do a 10-11 hour day poring over statistics and chemical formulae.

That, to a great extent is reward enough. It pretty much has to be.
Great post and I share your enthusiasm. I look at my lab managers (who make major bucks) at work, sitting at their desks all day, only stepping into the lab to see what's up and I don't know if I could do it. I'd miss the bench.
 
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thaumaturgy

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Great post and I share your enthusiasm. I look at my lab managers (who make major bucks) at work, sitting at their desks all day, only stepping into the lab to see what's up and I don't know if I could do it. I'd miss the bench.

This is the classic issue you'll face as we all do later on in your career. My brother-in-law was a pharamaceutical organic chemist with a huge company. He was working on AIDS drugs or some such, and had the management invitation extended to him. He took it and missed the lab desperately. Later he quit this cush job and moved over to a small start-up firm where he could be back in the lab more.

Most scientists really do love the lab. It's a tough choice for some.

Personally I have to get back in the lab because without getting my hands in the mix most of the concepts don't seem real to me.

I have always been an experimentalist as opposed to a theoretician. I have, lately, however gotten pretty interested in statistics and, ironically enough, patent law. I'm finding that in industrial research, IP is the big thing. I don't much care about the economic aspect of patent portfolios but more the "legal gamesmanship" in establishing a good patent and the arguments that can bring one down.

As I told one of my friends; scientists and lawyers draw from the same deep well of logic formalisms, but often come up with very different liquids. :)

Good luck in your career. It can be a lot of fun. I like to tell family that my job (R&D Science) is the only job where I'm paid to not know what I'm doing! If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be "research"!
 
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thaumaturgy

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That's a relief, I'm not the only one who thinks this way.

There are many of us out there!

I told my boss that the corporation would never get me to get an MBA. I'll gladly take more classwork and training for stats or other science, maybe even law (for patent law issues), but I simply didn't care enough about the business aspects.

Don't get me wrong, I want my company to make a profit and keep us all employed. There are other people who have that skill. All I want to do is figure out how to get this particular mineral down to the proper particle size and surface charge that I can make a stable, high solids dispersion!

Overall this is kind of the point of my whole diatribe in this thread. There's a role for everyone, regardless of their area of expertise. In fact there's a role for the non-professional in asking the "out-of-the-box" questions to keep us all sharp.

What there isn't a role for is someone hiding behind a wall and firing pot-shots at those who are out trying to do the best we can.

Frankly I'd respect Dad or others of his like if they were literally a janitor or an accountant. So long as he bothered to respect others' and their work.

But considering the general attitude I've seen toward degreed scientists, I'd still have to give them a dose of their own medicine to see how easily they swallowed it.

Just to make a point.

Frankly I'm too unsure of myself to ever be openly dismissive of someone else's skills and abilities, unless they start a campaign of aggressive ignorance toward what it is I do.

Strangely enough, I bet Dad himself does something that I am incapable of doing. If he were open and honest with us as to what it is he does, I suspect it is something I couldn't do.

But do you think he ever thinks that way? Certainly not as he's shown here on this board.

I have exposed my throat more than a few times to the wolves with "Sheep's Faith Icons".
 
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Vene

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Frankly I'd respect Dad or others of his like if they were literally a janitor or an accountant. So long as he bothered to respect others' and their work.
Agreed, some of the best people I've known are custodians. But, I may be biased as I've worked side by side with them. Hey, I've got to make money somehow while I'm in college.
 
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Nathan Poe

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There_Was_Much_Rejoicing.jpg
 
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thaumaturgy

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Did things go badly for you, AV?

You see, among the lists of prideful actions I find interesting is your unilateral declarations of thread "finishing".

If you are uninterested in this (as you are in so many things apparently), why don't you just walk away?

Do you think everyone is just waiting for you, the most high and holy AV1611VET, to decree when the thread is "over"?

You flatter yourself.

But I suspect you spent a great deal of time flattering yourself. Anyone who can, in this order:

1. Tell us science is a gift from God.
2. Tell us how you hold science up to a higher standard
3. Tell science to "take a hike"

Must certainly think highly of their admittedly confused thought process.

So, do you think God likes it when you tell his "gift" to take a hike? :)

Why not just start all your posts with:

" /thought"

Or maybe:

"/logic"

or how 'bout:

"/linear thinking"
 
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thaumaturgy

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Agreed, some of the best people I've known are custodians. But, I may be biased as I've worked side by side with them. Hey, I've got to make money somehow while I'm in college.

Everyone here has started at the bottom of something. No jobs are better than others, no lives are less than others.

I worked manning a print station at a t-shirt company while in grad school. I worked at a Denny's washing dishes while getting my masters.

In the real world, I endeavor to actually appreciate everyone's role. I can cut loose here a bit, something I would seldom do in real life.
 
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MasterOfKrikkit

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Everyone here has started at the bottom of something. No jobs are better than others, no lives are less than others.

Word. I'm filling in an application for the new local supermarket... the funny thing is that I have to say "no" to "do you have any special skills for this position?" despite putting the absurdly long list of my academic credentials in the "education" section. Someone's gotta put the cereal boxes on the shelves. I'd prefer to be writing an algorithm for a cereal-box-shelving robot, but until that job offer comes...

And while I'm here, with regard to your comments about lab vs management, my bosses (well, ex-bosses now) are superincredibly highup smart types in academia (not industry, academia!) and they complain that they are basically managers now, not scientists. And it's true: they have so many grants, so many grad students, so many NSF meetings, so many conferences, so many everything else, that they never actually do hands-on science themselves any more. It's the curse of success, I guess. (Personally I'm not worried: I'm no good at research OR management, so I should be safe!)

And while I'm still here ;), with regard to your main thesis about STFUing on topics where you have no expertise... one of my beefs about academia is the assumption that researchers can teach. I discovered that I was pretty good in a classroom and put my efforts there, to the detriment of my research, of course. Let's just say it didn't pay off! But, like you, I didn't do it for the money; there's something worth more than money when you have a room of 100 people genuinely excited about a subject. So, also like you, I get pi$$y when people mouth off about education/teachers/etc from the safety of the peanut gallery. So, yeah. I'm with you. Also, a bit tangentially, some of the crevo debate relates to pedagogy more than science, and it really bugs me when ... one side (not naming names) ... muddies those waters, mixing science with pedagogy and politics.

Aaaaand one last comment (I promise!). "scientists and lawyers draw from the same deep well of logic formalisms, but often come up with very different liquids" sounds like my one-liner: "a mathematician is just a badly paid lawyer".

OK, I'm done now! :wave:
 
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True_Blue

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You know, Creationists and their co-religionists who would denigrate science, whenever I read your posts and I see you sitting in the cheap seats lobbing attacks on science you have never studied it makes me proud.

Proud of the November I spent in the cold midwest without electricity because the research grant I was counting on didn't come through so I had my electricity shut off for a couple weeks. Yet I still made it into the research lab every day, after showering in cold water in the dark.

I'm proud of the times when I worried obsessively over being evicted because I couldn't pay my rent on time because I was making a pittance while I held down two "jobs"; one as a research student, and one teaching intro geology to the mewling spawn of people like you.

I'm proud of the time when I ate nothing but ramen for months on end so I could afford the coal petrology textbook.

I'm proud of foregoing new shoes and walked holes in the bottom of my tennis shoes, so I could afford a new calculator so I could complete my Physical Chemistry class. (To be honest, those were my "penitent shoes" and after a while I wore them more for fun than necessity.)

I'm proud of the times I crawled into the lab to do my experiments in silence while feeling sick as a dog from the stomach flu.

I'm proud of the years I spent making just about minimum wage so I could hone my research skills and learn just a little more.

I'm proud of the five years I spent as a postdoc. Part of that time enduring life as little more than a better paid grad student.

I'm proud of the fact that I put in more effort into college than most of you did in elementary, junior high and high school. Oh yeah, and I also did all those educational things you did, but I went beyond.

Sacrifice? Yes. That's why I wouldn't go up to John McCain and tell him if he were a better pilot maybe he could raise his arms over his head today.

But the fine "Christian Creationists" and the fine "Christians" who would tell us how science should be done without bothering to get the requisite education, just tend to annoy.

Remember, my friends, you may think we just woke up one day with all these college degrees. Or that someone just "gave" them to us. But that is your ignorance.

Your commentary from the "cheap seats" and your cat-calls at the players on the field don't help the game. The professionals would be glad to have your input. But you have to approach it with the respect due to all of us on here who have done significant work to get our degrees and who spend our lives in pursuit of science.

I'd personally be glad to discuss science with anyone (and I have proven time and again that I will), but what I will not do is endure the constant intimations that scientists are simply "wrong" from people who get their "science" from a cursory examination of biased resources and some personal hubris that makes them think they are just as capable as someone who has given the time and effort we scientists have.

My graduate degrees are in law, economics, and finance, not in science. My specialty is in applying critical thinking skills to scientific ideas, and if I think they pass muster, I build a business plan off the idea and raise money in the capital markets to hire scientists, conduct research, and hopefully make lots of money. Whenever I analyze an invention, I always go back to first principles to make sure the idea doesn't violate some basic physical or economic law. For example, the cost of the inputs cannot be greater than the cost of the outputs. I know a really brilliant engineer who is trying to make fuel cells using platinum as a key component. Even if his fuel cell works, platinum is simply too expensive to use in this particular application. So this poor guy has and will be wasting years of his life on an idea that has no economic merit. I know another post-doc who's spent the last six months of his life working in a lab that's trying to genetically manipulate algae to make hydrogen for future use in hydrogen-powered cars. However, hydrogen highly pressurized to 250 atmospheres has a volumetric energy density is only 7.2% of that of biodiesel, so hydrogen will never become a viable alternative source of fuel in autos. Everyone in that lab is wasting their time. As intelligent and highly educated as these post-docs are, they don't have the critical thinking skills to analyze technology for merit, and they don't even know that they're wasting their time. Maybe they're comfortable earning a modest salary doing research for the sake of research, but I want my efforts to have a huge, enduring, and positive impact on the world.

Evolution is just the same thing. When you go back to first principles and apply thermodynamics, energy efficiency, probability & statistics, and many other basic principles to evolution, it simply doesn't pass muster. People tend to get so myopically focused on their narrow specialty that they lose focus on the big picture. I've read a great many scientific articles written by scientists in which they collect great data, but fail to accurately interpret the data because they apply the wrong schema (evolution) to explain the data's origin. Applying YEC often brings that same data into beautiful and elegant resolution.

I definitely respect your dedication to your science, including going hungry and all that, but I can't help but wonder if there's a better course for your life. Only God can help you follow the BEST POSSIBLE alternative future for your life.
 
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Vene

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Yeah, evolution is just so useless. Tell that to the pharmaceutical companies that use it day to day to develop new medications. Just a quick example, using evolutionary theory to predict the new flu strain on an annual basis so the correct vaccine can be developed to handle viral evolution.
 
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thaumaturgy

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My graduate degrees are in law, economics, and finance, not in science. My specialty is in applying critical thinking skills to scientific ideas, and if I think they pass muster, I build a business plan off the idea and raise money in the capital markets to hire scientists, conduct research, and hopefully make lots of money.

That is noble. I work on the flipside of folks like you. I'm the scientist the business people hire to do the inventions. Believe me, from my side of the fence, the business people can "analyze" and "hypothesize" how innovation happens, but it doesn't always happen the way they want.

So this poor guy has and will be wasting years of his life on an idea that has no economic merit.

Perhaps. But this is the classic battle in industry. We are asked to innovate for the bottom line. I just read about the scientist at Kodak who invented the first digital camera in the 1970's. It was about the size of a toaster and kodak told him it was nice but not interested.

Funny thing how close Kodak recently came to evaporation because they kept their eye on film and dropped the ball in digital imaging. If they had actually tracked this next-to-useless invention, they'd be the top dog in digital imaging today. As it stands now, if they are lucky they will be able to get their new printer technology out and remain a player. But they ran up so close to the same cliff that Polaroid fell off of that it makes you wonder how "far sighted" business people are when it comes to technology.

Don't get me wrong. I understand the importance of making a profit. It's what keeps me employed. But sadly too many businessmen in the boardroom and we lose the "Bell Labs" who will provide the breakthroughs that are useless today but might lead to something incredible 10 or 20 years down the road. How long was it before someone made use of transistors after they were invented by Shockley, Bardeen and Brattain?

Kodak has reinvigorated itself by going back to a more research-centric approach. Their patent portfolio is blossoming and they are covering a lot of ground in technology. Is it too little too late? Or is it brilliant?

I know another post-doc who's spent the last six months of his life working in a lab that's trying to genetically manipulate algae to make hydrogen for future use in hydrogen-powered cars. However, hydrogen highly pressurized to 250 atmospheres has a volumetric energy density is only 7.2% of that of biodiesel, so hydrogen will never become a viable alternative source of fuel in autos.

I used to work on hydrogen storage in novel materials. I used to be a true-believer in the hydrogen economy, but I am having my doubts these days for this reason as well as for the general energy balance to produce the hydrogen. At a conference in Norway I attended it was indicated that "storage" was the main thing that would make or break the H2 fuel cell in the auto market. But I believe the energy balance you mentioned may be the bigger problem.

Everyone in that lab is wasting their time.

Actually no, they aren't. What they may be doing is finding the next hydride material that will help in those cases where fuel cells are useful. Or they may be discovering a highly porous material that can be tailored to cleaning up nuclear wastes or sequestering other gases for storage. Scientists may look like they are wasting their time, but in fact, every new piece of information has the potential to be the next big thing.

You as a business man have the problem of balancing near-term financial returns with long-term vision. Sadly too few american corporations are into that.

As intelligent and highly educated as these post-docs are, they don't have the critical thinking skills to analyze

Stop right there. They do have critical thinking skills. They may not have a short-sighted bottom-line focus but that is not to say they are incapable of critical thinking. Just different applications.

Maybe they're comfortable earning a modest salary doing research for the sake of research, but I want my efforts to have a huge, enduring, and positive impact on the world.

Well, to be fair, they aren't cows. You can't just hook 'em up to a machine and suck the knowledge out. It does take a special skill set.

Your job is hard, no doubt. But their job is too. They don't necessarily see what you see, but I bet you don't see what they see either. That has been my experience in corporate research.

Evolution is just the same thing. When you go back to first principles and apply thermodynamics, energy efficiency, probability & statistics, and many other basic principles to evolution, it simply doesn't pass muster.

No, you are incorrect there. There is no thermodynamic barrier to evolution. To my knowledge there is no statistical barrier either, considering that any event when looked at from the final result is statistically unlikely. The important points to remember about these arguments are:

1. The earth is not a closed system energy-wise.
2. Evolution is the "path of least resistance" to adapt to a given set of stimuli. Which makes it the most statistically likely result of any given input to the system.

People tend to get so myopically focused on their narrow specialty that they lose focus on the big picture.

And sometimes people with limited scientific skills think their "opinion" is correct just because they can generate it.

I've read a great many scientific articles written by scientists in which they collect great data, but fail to accurately interpret the data because they apply the wrong schema (evolution) to explain the data's origin.

Evolution is a model to explain the variability of the data using the least number of reasonable factors. It does an admirable job. There is no magical "schema" to it. It is merely using the factors at hand:

1. Genetic variability
2. Mutations
3. Genetic drift
4. Reproducing factors that have a finite lifespan
5. Passive filter of "Natural Selection"

to explain the resultant data:

A. Fossil record of life changing over time.
B. Life being uniquely suited to the niche it is found it.
C. Twin nested heirarchies
D. Chemical, genetic and morphological commonalities

I may have missed a factor or response there, but in a general sense this is what the model has to work with, and what it has to explain. It does exactly that with the most parsimonious set of factors.

And that is how statistical analysis helps us determine the validity of a model like evolution!

Are there questions? Sure! There will always be questions. But this model currently does a pretty bang-up job.

And in the end, remember, that's what this part of science is all about. A model to explain the variability of the data.

Applying YEC often brings that same data into beautiful and elegant resolution.

Well, as a geologist, I can tell you the YE part of YEC plays total havoc with just about everything we know about physics, chemistry, hydrology, hydraulics, and biology. It requires such a wholesale destruction of physical laws to accomodate the data at hand that the YEC model fails at just about every turn.

I definitely respect your dedication to your science, including going hungry and all that, but I can't help but wonder if there's a better course for your life.

Well, I don't want it. I am quite happy with science. At times it is just about the best thing I can image doing with my life.

Only God can help you follow the BEST POSSIBLE alternative future for your life.

I used to ask him a lot for help. But then I realized I was doing all the answering and I was doing all the heavy lifting.

When I looked back at the beach sand, the single line of footprints were a size 11 1/2. Strangely enough, my size.

The further back I looked the more I realized that there was only ever one set of footprints on the beach. Even when I thought he was lifting me up, turned out I was just jumping.

11 1/2 shoe size. Seemed small for the creator of the universe. But fit me just fine.
 
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Split Rock

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Evolution is just the same thing. When you go back to first principles and apply thermodynamics, energy efficiency, probability & statistics, and many other basic principles to evolution, it simply doesn't pass muster.
If you have life, it will evolve. If evolution violates first principles in thermodynamics then so does life. Explain what specific mechanism of evolution violates these principles.

As far as probablility and statistics, I have bever seen a probability argument against evolution that actually made any sense. If you have one, please present it.

People tend to get so myopically focused on their narrow specialty that they lose focus on the big picture. I've read a great many scientific articles written by scientists in which they collect great data, but fail to accurately interpret the data because they apply the wrong schema (evolution) to explain the data's origin. Applying YEC often brings that same data into beautiful and elegant resolution.

Evolution is not just some narrow specialty. It is the underlying theory that makes sense of all of biology.

Explain how applying YEC to biology brings genetic, biochemical, developmental, anatomical data into "beautiful and elegant resolution." For example, explain biogeography in term of YEC. Explain the fossil record in terms of YEC. Explain why our genome is 95-96% identical to chimpanzees in terms of YEC. Explain ANYTHING in terms of YEC.
 
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MasterOfKrikkit

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Perhaps. But this is the classic battle in industry. We are asked to innovate for the bottom line. I just read about the scientist at Kodak who invented the first digital camera in the 1970's. It was about the size of a toaster and kodak told him it was nice but not interested.

Funny thing how close Kodak recently came to evaporation because they kept their eye on film and dropped the ball in digital imaging. If they had actually tracked this next-to-useless invention, they'd be the top dog in digital imaging today. As it stands now, if they are lucky they will be able to get their new printer technology out and remain a player. But they ran up so close to the same cliff that Polaroid fell off of that it makes you wonder how "far sighted" business people are when it comes to technology.

Don't get me wrong. I understand the importance of making a profit. It's what keeps me employed. But sadly too many businessmen in the boardroom and we lose the "Bell Labs" who will provide the breakthroughs that are useless today but might lead to something incredible 10 or 20 years down the road. How long was it before someone made use of transistors after they were invented by Shockley, Bardeen and Brattain?

Lots of examples like that around. Lasers, for one. Just about anything to do with computers! And what about really abstract things, like number theory and group theory? Did the guy who shot Galois think "so much for the NSA!"?

Anyway, yet again thaum, great post. Very polite, too, so I'm glad you said it all, rather than me.


:thumbsup:
 
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Braunwyn

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My graduate degrees are in law, economics, and finance, not in science. My specialty is in applying critical thinking skills to scientific ideas, and if I think they pass muster, I build a business plan off the idea and raise money in the capital markets to hire scientists, conduct research, and hopefully make lots of money.
I'm glad you posted in this thread. Given the conversation with dad earlier, this is uncanny timing. One YEC to another. :)
 
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True_Blue

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Explain how applying YEC to biology brings genetic, biochemical, developmental, anatomical data into "beautiful and elegant resolution." For example, explain biogeography in term of YEC. Explain the fossil record in terms of YEC. Explain why our genome is 95-96% identical to chimpanzees in terms of YEC. Explain ANYTHING in terms of YEC.

Genomes are incredibly complex. There's a term called "junk DNA" used to describe the 80-90% of the genome that has no identifiable purpose. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junk_DNA. This is as completely BS as the so-called vestigial organs that evolutionists argued was proof of evolution 150 years ago. A YEC will say that every single part of our genome serves an important purpose, and the YECs will be proven correct, even if it takes another 150 years. So it's foolish to say we are 95% similar to monkeys until we fully understand RNA and DNA. Right now, we're nowhere close to understanding genomes. Regardless, humans are so vastly different and superior to chimps that your statement that we are 95% similar to chimps is absurd on its face. The fact that monkeys have five fingers on each hand, along with other assorted phenotypic characteristics, does not do justice to the incredible power of the human mind compared to every other animal in creation (unless I'm having this conversation with a monkey).

Let's move to geology. For one thing, oil, natural gas, coal, etc. are formed under intense and sudden heat and pressure. We can recreate fossil fuels in a lab under such conditions. When geologists go hunting for fossil fuels, they usually find them pooled in a single vein buried under large, varying amounts of sedimentary rock. This is consistent with a lush ecosystem in which a large volume of water strips the vegetation, causes the vegetation to agglomerate, followed by large sedimentary deposition on top of the vegetation. It isn't consistent with millions of years of slow deposition. In that case, we'd expect to see several hundred or several thousand feet of accumulated organic matter from millions of years of successive vegetation growth, and see that virtually everywhere on land.

When I was a kid, I visited Dinosaur National Monument in Utah, where I saw dinosaur fossils buried in a hundred feet or more of sediminary rock. Apparently, the visitor center and the rock face is now closed. Anyway, bones must fossilize rapidly after immersion in some sort of muddy substrate, or else the bones would be broken down over time and never fossilize intact. The formation at Dinosaur National Monument is consistent a herd of dinosaurs being suddenly buried by a huge mud flow. I didn't notice any evidence of the classic "fossil record" evolution in what I saw--the dinosaurs looked to be roughly the same size from top to bottom. However, even if the larger fossils were on top and the smaller fossils were on the bottom, there is a far simpler explanation than long, slow evolution. Go to your junk drawer. Open it up. Inside, you'll see that all the small objects, like pins and paperclips, have settled to the bottom while the large objects are on top. When the great flood swept the world, large parts of the ecosystem was enveloped in massive amounts of muddy water of varying consistence. Within that muddy substrate, the smaller animals settled to the bottom while the larger animals were on top, sorting themselves by size. Subsequent geologic upheaval deposited widely varying amounts of rock on top of the mud, depending on the location. The nature of the geologic upheaval could be the subject of an entire book, and it's a lot of fun reading about. The kid's cartoon "The Land Before Time" gets some of it right, in reference to the huge rift that opened up, separating the baby dinosaur from his mama. :) When I look at a topographic map, it seems to me that the Mid-Atlantic Ridge is likely where the "fountains of the great deep" opened up, as described in Genesis.
 
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