Hey Creationists!

[NavyGuy7]

LOL, dad, about the other joke in response to my post. But I'm a lil distracted with another thread or I'd have responded sooner. Wow, everyone must be online today.

 

[Cabal]

You can huff and puff all you want against us, but until you start taking what we say at face value, and quit making jokes and trying so hard to trip us up with our own statements, you're going to have to endure from us what you consider to be callousness.


We're nice people --- we really are --- but if you want to work to get our dander up, we'll be glad to drop the s and show our s.

Works both ways, AV, which is what the point of this thread is about. Now we can all argue and argue about who started what or who's done a better job of things, or we can all stop acting like we know it all and conduct some real discussion - however, seeing as most debating here takes the form of scientific discussion rather than expounding on Bible verses (at least from what I've seen) that would understandly require a modicum of restraint from those who don't know as much science.

And given that you've issued more "challenges" than anyone one else here that are essentially wall-to-wall trip-uppery, I find the above statement to be a bit of a double standard. That aside, how do you feel everytime someone claims to know the Bible better than you've studied it, and yet clearly don't?

 

[dad]

But strangely enough, I don't recall ever seeing you show any signs of humility. Funny that.

Just because I don't over value a degree from godless schools, as some claim to sainthood, doesn't mean I am egotistical.

Oh, sure, you refer to people collectively as sinners and such, but I wonder if you ever question yourself.

No, I am onto myself as well, and have no need to fooly myself, into thinking I was an exception to the rule. Even Paul the aposle knew that much.
1Ti 1:15 - This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

You certainly never do on this board.

I usually focus on false science claims rather than dark confessions. Call me topical.

Again, I'm sure Jesus must feel lonely when you're around, because no matter how much he might want to love you, you are too busy loving yourself much, much more.

Really? So you believe in Jesus being around now?? Or is this more insincerity?

 

[thaumaturgy]

Guys, you can moan and groan all you want about the point Dad first made; but the fact is, he hit the nail right on the head.

No he did not. Either that or you didn't read the OP for content, AV. What I said was explicitly that I don't want to denigrate the sacrifices of others, and in response I do not wish to have my sacrifices and efforts denigrated. (I suggest you re-read around paragraph 10).

I said NOTHING about missionaries or the work they do. I don't care much for RELIGIOUS missions, but I agree there are missionaries out there who do good.

What my point was (I'll repeat it yet again): Please be mindful that many of us who are scientists became scientists through extremes of effort. Involving much sacrifice. All we want is to NOT have to hear people like yourself who tell us science can "take a hike" while having no interest in learning the science we have studied for YEARS. Yet you also want to tell us how our science is wrong.

It is all, if you must have the words of your lord and savior repeated to you again, Luke 6:31.

And I, personally, am tired of repeating over and over what a sacred calling true science really is.

No, you told science it can take a hike. You told us you aren't interested in learning science. So you have, technically speaking, no say in the matter.

But further, you get "tired of repeating"...well, too bad for you, YOU SET THE PRECEDENT with your constant repetition of the Pluto thing despite having it explained to you very clearly and succinctly TIME AFTER TIME. But you keep bringing it up as if none of that was ever discussed.

You shame your faith by holding your bible so dearly but failing to keep one simple little verse in mind. Luke 6:31.

I am really getting fond of that.

You can huff and puff all you want against us, but until you start taking what we say at face value, and quit making jokes and trying so hard to trip us up with our own statements, you're going to have to endure from us what you consider to be callousness.

I really wish you could read for content. Really and honestly. Go back and read the first post in this thread. Then read it again. Get one of your more literate friends to explain the subtleties of the english language to you so you can understand what was said.

THEN come back and preach.

We're nice people --- we really are ---

Maybe you haven't read much of Dad's posts. I honestly don't think he posts more than 2 posts in a thread before he gets as down and dirty and maybe even nastier than Christopher Hitchens. Try reading the garbage spewing out of Juvenissun's mouth as he tells us our failings as geologists.

And many of the peanut gallery never tell us what their field is. Are they scared of having their most beloved area of study slagged by people who don't understand it?

I know many (a huge number of) nice Christians. People I honestly respect and like quite a bit. Even a few on here.

I think if you honestly look back through the history of my posts you'll see that I always explain the science as best as I can, until it becomes clear that the Creationist or anti-science person is going to be recalcitrant. Usually I don't start off snarky and nasty.

Again, my whole point is that I see too many of you in the peanut gallery slagging science without understanding science.

You are an especially egregious example in that you have on numerous occasions indicated your disinterest in learning the science! Yet you will tell us to "keep looking" for things, or that "science can take a hike".

[bible]Luke 6:31[/bible]

How do you feel when someone says "YOUR faith can take a hike."

Do you like that? Does it change the --> ?

Because my WHOLE REASON FOR THIS THREAD can be summed up in the fact that if you want to see my

-->

Just tell me science can take a hike and then critique science.

If you think science should take a hike, then by all means, keep yourself away from scientistific discussions. Because otherwise YOU are the one baiting the bear.

 

[NavyGuy7]

Interesting, I didn't say anything about how God seems. I was talking about some of his mortal representatives.

Funny how you jumped on it that way. Seems like maybe you have a bit of a confusion as to which of you is God and which of you is mere ol' Dad.

Or maybe you weren't clear enough, maybe. Hrm... funny how such people make assumptions based on assumptions, based on other people's assumptions...

What tangled webs we weave
When we practice to deceive... lol.

 

[Baggins]

What tangled webs we weave
When we practice to deceive... lol.

Oh what a tangled web we weave

When first we practise to deceive

There is no excuse what with internets and everything

Oh what a tangled web we weave,
When first we practise to deceive!
Sir Walter Scott, Marmion, Canto vi. Stanza 17.
Scottish author & novelist (1771 - 1832)

 

[AV1611VET]

You are an especially egregious example in that you have on numerous occasions indicated your disinterest in learning the science! Yet you will tell us to "keep looking" for things, or that "science can take a hike".

Look, Thaumaturgy, let me be blunt here:

God didn't gift me with science - he gifted you with it. Then He even saved you when you asked Him too.

Now you turn your back on Him, and use that gift He gave you against Him.

I, on the other hand, wasn't given that gift that you were given - at least not that particular one - so it stands to reason I'm unknowledgeable in that field.

On the other hand, I make up for it with the gift He did give me, and can defend Creationism and the Flood [from a Biblical perspective] with ease --- among other doctrines.

Your disgust with me taking the Bible to "slag" Geology is the same disgust I have when you take Geology and "slag" the Bible.

 

[NavyGuy7]

Oh what a tangled web we weave

When first we practice to deceive

There is no excuse what with internets an everything

Who says I got it from him first? Maybe I...
...copied it from my Apollo Justice: Ace Attorney Nintendo DS game?
LOL. If you are quoting that, then it's completely correct.
And since when did that poem matter, again? I merely said it as a side coment. Funny funny!

 

[AV1611VET]

Can you guys take your nursery rhymes elsewhere? We're trying to have a serious discussion here.

 

[NavyGuy7]

Can you guys take your nursery rhymes elsewhere? We're trying to have a serious discussion here.

I'm all for a serious discussion... soon as I can see it. I'm not the one trying to "enhance" my cultural upbringing, however.
SO..... what're we talking about, again? SUMMARY PLEASE!
Then I'll watch and wait for posts, and offer my opinions, and such.

 

[dad]

You are the one that brought up the motives of educated people. You like to gossip to your hearts content but when the tables are turned on you it's all of a sudden irrelevent.

How many executives of Haliburton have some education? Or other big corporations? Do you really want to claim it is gossip that they are less than saintly, unselfish folks, all? Also, I thought I said all were sinners? It is not just the over educated.

And profession absolutely matters. It's how people spend the majority of their time. Are you a pastor or something? Do you spend the majority of your time for selfish reasons or not? Since you feel self-righteous enough to speculate about others then lay your cards on the table.

Did Jesus spending more time on carpentry, than preaching mean we all ought to start hammering planks?? No. Did Noah spending years building the ark mean that we should build boats to be righteous? No. Do all need to make tents, as Paul did? No. Is tent making some unselfish holy thing? No. It was a job, so Paul didn't have to mooch off his converts, for one thing. Professions are a dime a dozen, and do not make or break a man. I don't care if the loaf around the wilderness for 40 days, with no job, that isn't the main thing.

Irrelevant. You contradict yourself because you say one thing and most certainly do another.

Says you, knowing squat about the matter. Why not speak to something you are mildly informed about?

No doubt you have taken your children to the doctor.

If I did have kids, and used a doctor, does that mean I would take them to an abortionist, or someone like Doc Kevorkian? Is there something wrong with using a plumber, or mechanic, or doctor, if we feel like it???

I doubt you delivered them yourself. You are completely reliant on others while condemning them at the same time. It's a pretty backwards world-view.

On the topic of child birth, actually, I think mid wives are fine. But whether I use a doctor, midwife, or stork, I don't see how you get off saying I condemn them?
Where I have assaulted so called science was where it left earth of the here and now, and took to preaching anti God lies about a past, or future they know squat about. If a doctor wants to go back in time, and help deliver Noah, or something, I couldn't care less. But that is not what doctors do. Nor scientists.

 

[MasterOfKrikkit]

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to thaumaturgy again."

Buggerit. It's not my fault thaumaturgy keeps hitting the proverbial nail on the proverbial cranium. So, thaumy, consider this informal reppage. Pretty much every one of your posts in this thread is worthy. Don't let the peanutists get you down!

 

[thaumaturgy]

Your disgust with me taking the Bible to "slag" Geology is the same disgust I have when you take Geology and "slag" the Bible.

Well, with the big difference that:

1. I actually care about understanding religious thought (I've spent years on this topic)

2. I actually care about Christianity (warts and all, history and all). I spent years as one. I have many friends who are still Christians.

3. Even when I was a Christian you and I would not have seen eye to eye because you have taken a stand on the Bible that is far too inerrant and hyper-literalist. I find your faith repellent precisely because it obviates the need for thought. It is "anti-intellect", and that is my main problem with you and those like you.

But further, if you read my posts closely, I actually do take a somewhat measured tone when debating against religion in general. I have said on many occasions on this forum and elsewhere that I would never want to deconvert someone. If someone reads my words I would hope they would scrutinize them and check and re-check what I say. That's why I obsessively edit and re-edit my posts and provide as many references to external sites as possible as well as just about an unlimited number of caveats to my own points.

Go ahead. Check it out.

As I said to dad, I live in fear of saying something blatantly wrong. If I do so, I will take my lumps and acknowledge that error. I have done so many times on this board, and even with you yourself. The fact is, that I actually care deeply about the debate, both sides, and the fact that, again, if you read my posts carefully, I do take a much more circumspect stance in regards to religion.

I don't believe in it, and I will admit to being a bit snarky at times. But overall I don't want to take anyones religion from them. What I do want is to keep religion out of science because there is no overlap in that particular venn diagram.

I will fight, to the utmost, the intrusion of religious dogma into the empirical sciences. It has no place. NOT because I think religion is bunk, but because it literally has no basis in logic or the empirical formalism that underlies science.

That is a subtlety most Creationists or religious anti-science zealots can't handle. They think anyone who debates against religion's role in everything is debating against religion in general. They are often like you, in that they really don't like or understand science, but they do fear its applications. But rather than take the time to learn it (that would require discipline) they sit in the cheap seats and lob accusations at it.

I fail to believe in God. And I've explained my "weak atheist" stance too many times on this board to repeat it. As a weak atheist, I am the least of your worries to the faith in general.

But if you think by "candy-coating" your implicit dislike of science in thick layers of "god's gift of science" or "science held to a higher standard" or "true" science, well, you will get pushback from a real scientist who actually has spent years in religious thought.

So we differ on a very fundamental level. Unlike you, I actually care about the debate so much I make a real effort to understand both sides.

While I don't hold the Bible out as much of a guide to life, certainly no more so than the sum of human writings, there are parts that really do bear repeating and bear reading.

[BIBLE]Luke 6:31[/BIBLE]
and
[BIBLE]Proverbs 16:18[/BIBLE]

are two that come to mind again and again.

 

[Braunwyn]

How many executives of Haliburton have some education? Or other big corporations?

I mentioned pages ago that most business majors I know went into it for the $$. The OP is a scientist so lets stick with scientists, not that the two are mutually exlcusive. And lets stick with you. No need to gallivant all over the place. I want to know what you do. What's so special about the way you spend the majority of time (at work) that puts you in a position to judge anyone's choices.

Do you really want to claim it is gossip that they are less than saintly, unselfish folks, all? Also, I thought I said all were sinners? It is not just the over educated.

I've been on this board for a while, and yes you are a gossip. You love to talk about people (real or imaginary I'm not sure).

Did Jesus spending more time on carpentry, than preaching mean we all ought to start hammering planks??

Which is why I asked you what you do with the majority of your time. We know what Jesus did in his three years as a preacher. He preached. From what I understand he wasn't doing that much carpentry at the time, no?

No. Did Noah spending years building the ark mean that we should build boats to be righteous? No. Do all need to make tents, as Paul did? No. Is tent making some unselfish holy thing? No. It was a job, so Paul didn't have to mooch off his converts, for one thing. Professions are a dime a dozen, and do not make or break a man. I don't care if the loaf around the wilderness for 40 days, with no job, that isn't the main thing.

Lets be clear, you don't do any of the things that Noah, Jesus, Paul et al did nor will you. If you were I would suspect that you'd be spending the free time you have in communities that need service not on the net. All you have left is the work-week, which is what I'm inquiring about. What do you do that is so righteous that you feel you can equate another's profession and education to TP?

Says you, knowing squat about the matter. Why not speak to something you are mildly informed about?

Are you not using a computer, using technology in general to aid your existance, relying on the wicked you like to gossip about?

If I did have kids, and used a doctor, does that mean I would take them to an abortionist, or someone like Doc Kevorkian? Is there something wrong with using a plumber, or mechanic, or doctor, if we feel like it???

You wouldn't need a doctor according to you. Did I misread your posts? All you need is god, remember?

On the topic of child birth, actually, I think mid wives are fine. But whether I use a doctor, midwife, or stork, I don't see how you get off saying I condemn them?

This is your response on the first page.

"No, men of this world's puny, dangerous knowledge usually have a degree to insure good bucks, (they think) for themselves. Also, I found that most highly educated folks I have ever met have what I would call no morals! Usually they embrace homosexuality, and abortion, for example, as perfectly fine. Par for the godless education course, really."

It's par for the course with your posts.

Where I have assaulted so called science was where it left earth of the here and now, and took to preaching anti God lies about a past, or future they know squat about.

Science doesn't preach anything anti or pro-god, people do.

If a doctor wants to go back in time, and help deliver Noah, or something, I couldn't care less. But that is not what doctors do. Nor scientists.

I have no idea what you're talking about here.

 

[truth above all else]

Proverbs 16:18[/bible]
.

I'm confused about your selection of scripture I strongly suggest that you take heed of its teaching

 

[Split Rock]

So, your idea of good work is to see people kept from a knowledge of God. Interesting.
Too bad for you that hundreds of millions all over the world are being converted, and have been over the last few decades. I read one estimate of 300 million Christians in China alone.
If any of those read things in a forum on the net you would never know, so don't think your personal knowledge means a whole lot.
The battle is raging, and being won, and the outcome is known already, and certain.

Actually, I have no issue with Christianity in general. If Christianity wins more converts in the future, I say good for Christianity. My issue is with Creationism. In any case, my point was that although Creationists like yourself claim to be here to save souls, and claim that Creationism is necessary for this, you are doing an abysmally poor job of winning over converts. In addition, I think you are actually driving people away from Christianity in general by making it look provincial, petty and stupid. While I applaude your negative results on winning converts to Creationism, I find it almost a shame you are having a similar negative effect on Christianity in general.

 

[thaumaturgy]

How many executives of Haliburton have some education?

Hey, Ken Lay was a pretty sharp guy. Let's see what Ken said on the day he was found guilty!

“I firmly believe I’m innocent of the charges against me,” Lay said that day. “We believe that God in fact is in control and indeed he does work all things for good for those who love the lord.”

emphasis added.

Yes, we see how all who say "Lord, Lord", are not necessarily doing God's will, don't we?

 

[Vene]

Hrm, I'm one of those who believe in teh Creation mentioned in the book of Genesis. If that's a Creationist, then I suppose I am one, then.
Hiya! Wanna try to refute my stubborn will?

Sure, why not?
So, what gaps do you think there are in the theory of evolution?

 

[thaumaturgy]

I mentioned pages ago that most business majors I know went into it for the $$. The OP is a scientist so lets stick with scientists, not that the two are mutually exlcusive. And lets stick with you. No need to gallivant all over the place. I want to know what you do. What's so special about the way you spend the majority of time (at work) that puts you in a position to judge anyone's choices.

I would dearly love to know what Dad's field of specialization is. I have no doubt he does something. I would think if he were a stronger individual, one with nothing to hide, he'd be open to telling us what his field of expertise is so that we might treat it as he treats others' fields.

I'm not asking for specifics. Just general field of endeavor.

This is your response on the first page.

"No, men of this world's puny, dangerous knowledge usually have a degree to insure good bucks, (they think) for themselves. Also, I found that most highly educated folks I have ever met have what I would call no morals! Usually they embrace homosexuality, and abortion, for example, as perfectly fine. Par for the godless education course, really."

It's par for the course with your posts.

The ironic thing is that as a degreed scientist I don't make as much as people with less education and training around me.

Part of that is my issue, I do science because I love science. I honestly love getting up on Monday morning and going into the lab.

Do I wish I were paid more? Sure! That's human. Did I go into science because I wanted to make a living. Yes. Did I go into it just because it was a way to make a buck?

Nope.

I once had a great undergrad student in one of my geology classes I was teaching. He was really good and as such I pointed out he might consider majoring in geology or science. He said he would love to, but his dad was paying for college so he was forced to take a business degree.

If I had just wanted the almighty dolla I guarantee everyone that I knew exactly where that dollar was located. It was down the quad over in the school of business administration.

Of course that would have been the death of my spirit. I have a serious aversion to doing something just for some economic return. In fact, it is highly likely I couldn't perform just for money.

So, while I'm as prone to kvetch about my salary, I will never go get an MBA, and I have already plighted my troth on the "Technical Development Career Path" at my job. I've signed the papers and committed myself to less money than I could make. And I work for a Fortune 100 company. I work in a division of this company that makes a material that, I'm willing to guess, just about everyone on this board has come in contact with.

But I'll never see that scratch.

But every Monday morning I'm up at 5:00 and out the door to voluntarily do a 10-11 hour day poring over statistics and chemical formulae.

That, to a great extent is reward enough. It pretty much has to be.

Science doesn't preach anything anti or pro-god, people do.

Quoted for truth.

 

[TheManeki]

Thaum, thanks for posting all this. Your words are always welcome. :man-hug:

Since so many creationists seem to have trouble understanding how to debate in this forum, I have to wonder if they are really here as an attempt to evangelize us heathens and scoundrels.

If so, this has to be some of the strangest evangelizing I've seen since the days when Bob Jones University students would lurk outside my dorm on Friday nights, waiting to pounce on us and witness as we returned from our bacchanals. From the countless examples on this board, I see a faith that promises all the answers while providing none, a faith that promotes unthinking, unquestioning obedience and constant guilt that Jesus Died For Our Sins.

Fundamentalism: not fun, not mental.