Here’s the No. 1 fallacy on eternal security

[Clare73]

But as you already know I never said that God as duplicitous with Pharoah.

Then you have redefined the meaning of the word.

 

[Hentenza]

But you were using Paul to support the idea that we can know.

I used Paul to support the idea that Paul knew who they were so they exist and will not loose their salvation.

 

[fhansen]

I used Paul to support the idea that Paul knew who they were so they exist and will not loose their salvation.

Alright, and even if I agree that Paul has this certain knowledge about them individually, unless we know then the concept of OSAS is rendered a sort of worthless-and academic-point. I mean, to say that the elect are saved is redundant; it's to say that the saved are saved. To be able to identify just who they are is another matter. And I think we leave that up to God who'll inform us for sure in the end. Until then, we have criteria and guidelines in the bible based primarily on changes made in us, with resultng fruit produced.

 

[Hentenza]

Alright, and even if I agree that Paul has this certain knowledge about them individually,

Yes he does.

unless we know then the concept of OSAS is rendered a sort of worthless-and academic-point. I mean, to say that the elect are saved is redundant; it's to say that the saved are saved. To be able to identify just who they are is another matter. And I think we leave that up to God who'll inform us for sure in the end. Until then, we have criteria and guidelines in the bible based primarily on changes made in us, with resultng fruit produced.

The saints ARE the body of Christ, all believers. Go back and look at every salutation to every church in his epistles. Paul is writting directly to the churches. The matter of saving faith regards the level of faith some are in. We talked about the parable of the soils before which explains the different levels of faith. These different levels are in every church including yours.

“Greet every saint in Christ Jesus. The brothers who are with me greet you. All the saints greet you, especially those of Caesar’s household.”
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭4‬:‭21‬-‭22‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Philippians 4:21-22 Greet every saint in Christ Jesus. The brothers who are with me greet you. All the saints greet you, especially those of Caesar’s household. | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

Greet every saint in Christ Jesus. The brothers who are with me greet you. All the saints greet you, especially those of Caesar’s household.

bible.com

This is what Paul tells the church of Philipi as he closes his epistle.

The problem you have is your church‘s error in teaching about saints (hagios). In RCC theology, the saints are in heaven. In the Bible, the saints are on earth. In RCC teaching, a person does not become a saint unless he/she is “beatified” or “canonized” by the Pope or prominent bishop. In the Bible, everyone who has received Jesus Christ by faith is a saint. In RCC practice, the saints are revered, prayed to, and in some instances, worshiped. In the Bible, saints are called to revere, worship, and pray to God alone.

You are a Christian because you answered God‘s call and received the free gift of faith by the grace of God. Examine your faith and determine if you are just a babe in Christ or are you maturing. I know that nothing can ever separate me from the Lord but you, because of your church’s incorrect teachings on salvation by faith plus works, will always wonder if you are good enough. I grew up full blow RCC but ended up in the spot of asking if I would ever be good enough. It let me to atheism (yes your church led me to atheism). But God called me back and here I am. You are a saint by virtue of being a sheep in Jesus flock. Jesus says that He will never loose one of His sheep and no one can take them away from His hand. Is up to you to enter Jesus rest or not. You need to mature to the next level.

 

[fhansen]

The saints ARE the body of Christ, all believers. Go back and look at every salutation to every church in his epistles. Paul is writting directly to the churches. The matter of saving faith regards the level of faith some are in. We talked about the parable of the soils before which explains the different levels of faith. These different levels are in every church including yours.

They are different levels of willingness-and that's about as as far as we can know.

 

[Hentenza]

They are different levels of willingness-and that's about as as far as we can know.

That is as far as you can know.

 

[fhansen]

That is as far as you can know.

Yes, that’s as far as you can know.

 

[Hentenza]

Yes, that’s as far as you can know.

Is there anything that can separate you from your faith in Christ?

 

[fhansen]

Is there anything that can separate you from your faith in Christ?

Just me. I still strugge with sin IOW, And sin is to continue to be prideful, covetous, etc, in some way or another, still challenged to value or be attracted to lesser, created things above God at times. This really means that I'm not perfected in love which means that the bond between myself and God is not as sure or complete as it could and should be. This doesn't mean that I'm not His, it only means the door is open. Meanwhile I do the best I can with the gifts He's given me to strive to do His will and grow nearer to Him. I know He's perfectly trustworthy and true and has only my highest interest at heart, ever-seeking to draw and keep me nearer but I'm the potentially weak link in the relationship. And this is why, for example, we're told to 'work out our salvation', or to 'make our calling and election sure'.

 

[fhansen]

Then you have redefined the meaning of the word.

We’re not comparing the same things tho. God told Adam His will, didn’t hardened Adam’s heart, and God’s will was not done. God conveyed His will to Pharaoh, and His will was done-even if it took some more doing in the process and even if God (and Pharoah) delayed it for a while for whatever reasons God had- which we don't really know-and we know Pharaoh’s reasons. Now, the best way to understand this matter of predestination IMO is as the following teaching explains:

600 To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of "predestination", he includes in it each person's free response to his grace: "In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place." For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness.

1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want "any to perish, but all to come to repentance":

 

[Clare73]

They are different levels of willingness-and that's about as as far as we can know.

We can know that only one level is saved, the others demonstrating their counterfeit faith.

 

[Clare73]

We’re not comparing the same things tho. God told Adam His will, didn’t hardened Adam’s heart, and God’s will was not done. God conveyed His will to Pharaoh, and His will was done-even if it took some more doing in the process and even if God (and Pharoah) delayed it for a while for whatever reasons God had- which we don't really know-and we know Pharaoh’s reasons. Now, the best way to understand this matter of predestination IMO is as the following teaching explains:

600 To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of "predestination", he includes in it each person's free response to his grace: "In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place." For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness.

1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want "any to perish, but all to come to repentance":

Which does not address the "duplicitousness" of God with Pharaoh; i.e., commanding him to obey and willing him not to obey.

 

[fhansen]

We can know that only one level is saved, the others demonstrating their counterfeit faith.

And we'll know for sure who they-the good soil- are in the next life.

 

[Clare73]

And we'll know for sure who they-the good soil- are in the next life.

The good soil itself will know in this life due to the witness of the Holy Spirit thereto (Ro 8:16).

 

[fhansen]

The good soil itself will know in this life due to the witness of the Holy Spirit thereto (Ro 8:16).

And yet Scripture also affirms that there will be those who think they're His...but are not.

 

[Clare73]

And yet Scripture also affirms that there will be those who think they're His...but are not.

And? . . .Are you saying that negates those who are and know it (Ro 8:16)?

There will always be tares among the wheat.

 

[fhansen]

And? . . .Are you saying that negates those who are and know it (Ro 8:16)?

It means they should question themselves-and what they "know", to always make sure who they're listening to. And then good fruit is the surest support for that knowledge.

 

[Clare73]

It means they should question themselves-and what they "know", to always make sure who they're listening to. And then good fruit is the surest support for that knowledge.

Which does not alter the word of God in Ro 8:16 that the Holy Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.

 

[fhansen]

Which does not alter the word of God in Ro 8:16 that the Holy Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.

It doesn't alter the fact that He does so, or the fact that people can deceive themselves. And this is why it's quite possible to encounter, as I have, church people including pastors claiming to be Spirit-filled who became embroiled in grave sin.

 

[Clare73]

It doesn't alter the fact that He does so, or the fact that people can deceive themselves. And this is why it's quite possible to encounter, as I have, church people including pastors claiming to be Spirit-filled who became embroiled in grave sin.

Like the Pastor Peter who denied Christ three times. . .human emotion overcoming him?
I'm thinkin' their grave sin is not as grave as Peter's sin.