Help with John 12:32

fhansen · May 25, 2025

Clare73 said:
Where do we find this "investment" in the NT?

I'm not sure-only that many if not most experience growth in the virtues as they're exercised, With faith this means professing it, praying, stepping out and relying on God when the odds appear against us, acting as if God is real in our lives, IOW. And it proves itself, with our conviction growing. But the Parable of the Talents, i.e the Parable of the Bags of Gold, aptly describes how this works, with grace leading to more grace as we invest what we're given.

Clare73 · May 25, 2025

fhansen said:
I'm not sure-only that many if not most experience growth in the virtues as they're exercised, With faith this means professing it, praying, stepping out and relying on God when the odds appear against us, acting as if God is real in our lives, IOW. And it proves itself, with our conviction growing. But the Parable of the Talents, i.e the Parable of the Bags of Gold, aptly describes how this works, with grace leading to more grace as we invest what we're given.

Faith is a gift (Php 1:29), it is not something we "acquire" or maintain.

fhansen · May 25, 2025

Clare73 said:
Faith is a gift (Php 1:29), it is not something we "acquire" or maintain.

We do both- it's a gift that we aquire to the extent that we accept it, and that we mainatain to the extent that we remain in Him. And I'd be surprised if a Christian hasn't experienced growth in faith. The bible speaks of stronger and weaker faith.

Clare73 · May 25, 2025

fhansen said:
We do both- it's a gift that we aquire to the extent that we accept it, and that we mainatain to the extent that we remain in Him. And I'd be surprised if a Christian hasn't experienced growth in faith. The bible speaks of stronger and weaker faith.

God works in us both to will and to do (Php 2:13). . .it's not something we "accept," it's something we willingly do.

fhansen · May 25, 2025

Clare73 said:
God works in us both to will and to do (Php 2:13). . .it's not something we "accept," it's something we willingly do.

That's His work, alright-and yet we can willingly refuse. Or we can be poorer soil where His word first takes root but later withers and dies, as we believe but fail to profess it, etc, as per John 12:42, for example.

Clare73 · May 26, 2025

fhansen said:
That's His work, alright-and yet we can willingly refuse. Or we can be poorer soil where His word first takes root but later withers and dies, as we believe but fail to profess it, etc, as per John 12:42, for example.

Poor God. . .his Almighty hands are tied.

fhansen · May 26, 2025

Clare73 said:
Poor God. . .his Almighty hands are tied.

"The Lord tests the righteous, but his soul hates the wicked and the one who loves violence." Psalm 11:5,

“There are six things the LORD hates, seven that are detestable to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked schemes, feet that are quick to rush into evil, a false witness who pours out lies and a man who stirs up dissension among brothers.” Prov 6

“The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.” Gal 5:19-21

Ok, so, now...if God hates evil, why then, do you think, there’s so much evil in our world? Is "poor God" incapable of having His will done on earth as it is in heaven? Are His Almighty hands tied?

Clare73 · May 26, 2025

fhansen said:
"The Lord tests the righteous, but his soul hates the wicked and the one who loves violence." Psalm 11:5,

“There are six things the LORD hates, seven that are detestable to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked schemes, feet that are quick to rush into evil, a false witness who pours out lies and a man who stirs up dissension among brothers.” Prov 6

“The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.” Gal 5:19-21

Ok, so, now...if God hates evil, why then, do you think, there’s so much evil in our world? Is "poor God" incapable of having His will done on earth as it is in heaven? Are His Almighty hands tied?

Do you think it exists apart from his plan? (Ro 9:22-23)

Vanellus · May 26, 2025

Looking at the use of the word "draw" in John's gospel, apart from the physical act of drawing e.g. a sword in the garden of Gethsemane it seems to only occur in a spiritual sense in Jn 6:44

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

So dare I complicate matters by wondering if it depends on who is doing the drawing - the Father or the Son? It's certainly the case that Jesus refers specifically to the Father drawing people in Jn 6:44, not himself drawing people.

fhansen · May 27, 2025

Clare73 said:
Do you think it exists apart from his plan? (Ro 9:22-23)

As long as it means that "Poor God" doesn't directly cause evil (and then blame us for it and then save us from it which would be the height of insanity), but that He patiently allows it for a time, tying His own hands so to speak for His ultimate purpose of bringing about an even greater good from it in the end. This would also be consistent with 2 Pet 3:9:
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

God works to bring man to his senses, which means for us to come to hate evil as He does- and choose the good.

Clare73 · May 28, 2025

fhansen said:
As long as it means that "Poor God" doesn't directly cause evil

Nothing exists in the sovereign God's universe that is not according to his plan, including the sin/disobedience of Pharaoh (Ro 9:16-18), for which Pharaoh was nevertheless held accountable.

fhansen said:
(and then blame us for it and then save us from it which would be the height of insanity), but that He patiently allows it for a time, tying His own hands so to speak for His ultimate purpose of bringing about an even greater good from it in the end. This would also be consistent with 2 Pet 3:9:
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

God works to bring man to his senses, which means for us to come to hate evil as He does- and choose the good.

com7fy8 · May 30, 2025

Vanellus said:
Looking at the use of the word "draw"

I suppose > a magnet can draw, but it might not bring all the way to the magnet. There can be the draw, even while the metal is moving away!

So, in any case, Jesus means He wants any and all people. Jesus loves any and all; there is hope for any person, at all. But ones refuse this.

Love "hopes all things" (in 1 Corinthians 13:7).

And this can mean that Jesus is the only One who is worthy to draw people to God.

"I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." (in John 14:6)

So, Jesus wants every person, and in Himself He has to desire to draw "all". So, in Jesus there is drawing, but in people there is refusing. And we see how the Book of Life does not have all.

fhansen · May 30, 2025

Clare73 said:
Nothing exists in the sovereign God's universe that is not according to his plan, including the sin/disobedience of Pharaoh (Ro 9:16-18), for which Pharaoh was nevertheless held accountable.

If we were to say that God sovereignly allows the evil that He hates, the evil that comes by virtue of the abuse of the good gift of freedom that He gave to men and angels, a freedom and abuse that He plans to ultimately bring an even greater good out of as he foreknows and uses men’s choices, then, ok, that works.

Nothing exists at all unless God gives it existence. But evil is always a perversion of that existence, a privation of the good within it. If we’re going to say that God directly wills and causes all evil that exists, and then claims to hate and oppose it, then we have just a god-a god who is not love-and not really worth following, incidentally.

Clare73 · May 30, 2025

fhansen said:
If we were to say that God sovereignly allows the evil that He hates, the evil that comes by virtue of the abuse of the good gift of freedom that He gave to men and angels, a freedom and abuse that He plans to ultimately bring an even greater good out of as he foreknows and uses men’s choices, then, ok, that works.

Nothing exists at all unless God gives it existence. But evil is always a perversion of that existence, a privation of the good within it. If we’re going to say that God directly wills and causes all evil that exists, and then claims to hate and oppose it, then we have just a god-a god who is not love-and not really worth following, incidentally.

None of which alters the fact that it exists for God's good purposes (Ro 9:22-23).

The sovereign God doesn't "allow" anything. . .he decrees all things for his own glory, including evil for the glory of his justice.

fhansen · May 30, 2025

Clare73 said:
The sovereign God doesn't "allow" anything. . .he decrees all things for his own glory, including evil for the glory of his justice.

Oh, no-He's very patient with us; He doesn't will evil-He doesn't will and cause the torture and rape of a child, for example.

Clare73 · May 30, 2025

fhansen said:
Oh, no-He's very patient with us; He doesn't will evil-He doesn't will and cause the torture and rape of a child, for example.

But he wills that non-believers receive eternal punishment.

Clare73 · May 30, 2025

fhansen said:
Oh, no-He's very patient with us; He doesn't will evil-He doesn't will and cause the torture and rape of a child, for example.

Non-responsive. . .

fhansen · May 30, 2025

Clare73 said:
Non-responsive. . .

Hmm...no, that ∆ was quite unresponsive, though.

Clare73 · May 30, 2025

fhansen said:
Hmm...no, that ∆ was quite unresponsive, though.

Code. . .

timf · May 31, 2025

If before the foundation of the world, God predestined a category that people could occupy as a result of trusting in Jesus,then an invitation to all would result in some who were "of the truth" responding so that they could be placed in that category. These could be called the "elect" or "chosen" as their response resulted in being placed in the predetermined category.

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