Help with a hard question

[Blaise N]

Hi everyone


Id like to ask a question concerning advice over the latter.

So I was thinking today while doing an activity,and it went something like this,and it’s a thought I don’t like.

“If my parents or family went to hell and I to heaven,(this is where the hurtful and part I don’t like comes in) I’d hate/or stop following God” and it hurts to type this to ask for help.

please know I have zero desire at all to leave the lord,or let alone hate him EVER.It was more like a intrusive/voluntary thought,but I said a prayer to ask for help to overcome it and repent of the H word part.I in prayer constantly said to remove the emotions or motives for the opposition that pre exists or would be motivated by sed occurrence.

I don’t even h*** the lord;I never have and don’t seek reasons to do so,but when thagg to thought comes up it’s more of a caught off guard and seemingly unfair of that hypothetical occurrence.

can anyone offer help how to overcome this and to never ever ever ever ever ever EVER come to a point of H-wording the lord or committing apostasy?

 

[William J]

Intrusive thoughts can be very troubling. You can be assured that the scenario you describe will only happen when you are already in heaven. At that point, there is no possibility of you hating God because you will be in perfect relationship with God. So you can know intellectually the the situation you fear can never happen. Of course, that doesn't prevent it from bothering you. I'm guessing that you have already prayed to God to make the unwanted thoughts go away. I'm not sure what else you can do.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I pondered this for many years. Kind of something that just lingered in the back of my head.
Here we are in heaven looking down and seeing all these people in hell. Most of them really no worse than I was when I walked the earth. I thank God that I found the Lord and was saved. But how am I going to enjoy the love and peace of heaven knowing these are suffering horribly in hell? I am not questioning the justice and mercy of God. There is this quandy and others. I wonder are humans really culpable for their sins and lives? Can they really fully perceive and understand the full ramifications of what they are doing in this life? Even Jesus acknowledged this when He said, "Forgive them for they know not what they do."
Isn't that everybody?
I am reminded of the story of the man who took his 3-year-old child out into the median of a 6-lane highway. Thousands of cars speeding 70 and 80 miles per hour. The man says, "Ok baby, it is up to you. It is your choice to do the right thing." And walks away leaving the baby there. Does that little child really understand the ramifications of its actions? I might suggest that when it comes to eternal life and eternal destiny, no human really perceives and understands the full implications of their actions on this world. We cannot see, cannot experience, nor can we grasp what eternal life, eternal hell is. I think the way most believers act bears this out. If we really believed and understood what our family members, friends, and neighbors are facing, would we not be in their face 24-7 trying to convince them to believe the gospel? If you saw the 3-year-old in the median of that highway, what would you do? Would we wave and shout well wishes? "Hope you make the right choice little one!" Who among us would not slam on the breaks dash out of the car and grab up that baby??? That is because you perceive and fully understand what is going to happen if you do not.
So, there are times in my prayer life that the Lord and I have some casual but frank conversations. He knows I am not questioning or doubting... I am merely seeking. Because I fully believe that He is more than just and faithful, He is merciful and kind. So, I ask Him about these issues. The clearest and most concise answer I have received is "It is your job to believe. What you are asking is my job. You do your job, and I will do mine." Same answer when some prayers appear not to be answered. "That is my job. Yours is to believe. You do yours. Let me do mine."

 

[Sophrosyne]

The argument is constantly made by non believers and also believers that reject traditional doctrine of Hell.

I think that we often project our fears and desires upon our conception of what hell is truly like and also we create in our mind an image of God's personality related to his setting up and dealing with the issue from essentially banishing people to hell and how they are treated there and also how long is their stay.

First off it is best to start with God's character before tackling the problems people have with hell.
God is for all practical purposes (in our minuscule minds) perfect in everthing. He is the most loving, the most forgiving the most powerful (etc) and ALSO the most just.
Taking that into consideration of hell and God's interactions with men throughout the Bible when people deserved to be "taken out" for their evil deeds God was patient. Take for example when David purposely put a man under his command in a position where he was almost guaranteed to be killed so he then could legally take that man's widow as his wife God could have immediately sentenced him to death and had him removed from his position as King. God instead allowed, perhaps even killed the first child of his from the woman. Now I don't pretend to equate this as the best solution nor do I equate (in my thinking) that a lot of what God did in the Bible was the best decision if I were not so trusting and understanding (in my limited understanding) of God.

Continuing on we see God's justice essentially poured out on Jesus from the physical torment and physical death that he endured to the end, perhaps the worse way to die at the time by any sort of governing authority that has any sort of decent legal system (not necessarily moral though) we have to somehow fathom how Jesus himself as God suffered immensely and perhaps infinitely more when God (the Father) poured out his wrath upon Jesus when all sins of all mankind was pretty much dumped on Jesus in what we could consider an instant (or perhaps an infinite amount of time in a dimension beyond our conception even) and with that the doors of heaven are opened up to us by our faith in Jesus and accepting the Father no longer holds sin against us because of Jesus and our Faith and acceptance of him in our lives.

Now we have a problem and that is according to the Bible we only have one way that is a definite way to get to heaven and that is through the Gospel and acceptance of God's (Jesus) works and sacrifice (death on the cross) on our behalf. With that said those who refuse to accept it leave themselves in a position where they essentially defy God's love. If one would consider that if you were rightly sentenced to death in front of a firing squad and a man steps up and asks the judge if he can swap places with you and instead he gets killed.... there is two choices that can occur: the first is you say no and are shot and killed, the second is you agree to have him shot and killed instead. Now this example may be somewhat crude but think about it as similar to the position we have for hell and with God as the judge and Jesus as the substitute for you in the firing squad. Do we now blame God and/or Jesus for you being put to death if we agree the Judge was just in his decree and Jesus had legal rights to take your place? One would have to consider that Hell is but the same idea and with that one would also have to consider that what does God do when you reject his love does he suddenly decide not to have you shot or does he literally force you to accept Jesus as your substitute to be executed?

We could also use prison as an example if one considers someone doing something and a just judge proclaims that he gets a life sentence for that deed and is locked up in prison... Hell is essentially an eternal prison for someone that has an eternal existence if you can think of it that way.

Now onto this way of thinking.... the Bible I believes has a verse or two that equate people will no longer have any tears or pain related to suffering. I take it that in heaven the suffering of others will no longer be our concern and I (personally) believe that our faith and trust in God will be maximized... perhaps even infinitely such that we trust God in ALL.... things and fear NOTHING in heaven...... ever again. Now if one is not constantly upset every second of every minute of every day for all 7+ billion people's suffering on the planet consider how we can somehow manage to sleep at night not concerned about someone we don't know about 2000 miles away that is being killed or dying to tortured or whatever vs how people we do know that we love suffer when we are not around them. I think trust and faith and knowledge can totally eliminate a lot of that suffering plus not having the power to actually KNOW everyone and ALL the suffering as GOD does.... is a blessing for us.

Next thinking of Hell, one has to revert to thinking of God's nature as spelled out in the Bible from every angle.
1)God is extremely and perhaps almost infinitely.... patient
2)God is absolutely Just, as (in his mind) people get punished for their deeds but NOT NEVER punished more than they deserve.
3)God is absolutely loving to the Max...
4)God is perfect, he won't flip flop or be unjust or unloving but can be all and all at the same time forever.
5)God both cannot tolerate sin, and anything corrupted by sin in his domain (heaven) is literally destroyed perhaps not in an instant but because of that nobody with any sin in them can enjoy or perhaps survive living in heaven with him.

Hell itself is a place to put those who just plainly cannot survive in heaven. If one could consider God's holy presence and a person having sin in them literally they would at the minimum feel totally remorseful and guilty and shame every conceivable feeling associated with the sin and.... I think absolute total rememberence of EVERY sin ever committed even the torment of those thoughts in itself would (in my opinion) be beyond overwhelming and very likely if there was no distraction or anything other to focus on people there would likely go beyond insane. I believe that people in hell literally desire God to punish them as his punishment (torment) is actually better for them to endure than the torment that they have from a conscience that is totally operating now.
If you consider that when we are saved we are convicted of our sinful nature by the Holy Spirit I think in hell they feel the Holy Spirit there similarly as people in heaven do and as in heaven our sins are no more there is no conviction of sin while those in hell are forever convicted of it.

Now lastly if one truly considers God's nature as revealed in the Bible is one truly trusting in him when they ascribe to the idea that God is ever unjust and unloving when it comes to hell? I think often one is throwing away their faith when they consider hell along with not really understanding the dynamic of hell itself and perceiving it in a way that allows them to lose the personality of God and faith in him because their love for their lost family members is greater than their love for God, and their trust in him.

I've considered hell and come up with thoughts that (to me) help me consider that God could manage it and be both just and loving to those in hell while also in no fashion unraveling who he is.... perfect. While we throw out trash and bury it and forget about it God doesn't throw us away even those in hell he loves but his perfection does not allow him to corrupt himself and perhaps in turn destroy everything to allow those who deserve punishment to escape it. God punished himself so we could be in heaven those rejecting him taking their place in that punishment get actually (IMO) less than what they deserve in Hell.

Trust in God will be absolute in heaven I believe and thus God will (I believe) limit the suffering in hell as much as he can without changing himself from being perfect and glorious. One could consider hell as akin to a black hole and God is the light of every star in the universe so even though there is darkness and no escape from the black hole there is light everywhere else in the universe but those who reject light are forever confined.
With all this in mind

 

[BobRyan]

Hi everyone


Id like to ask a question concerning advice over the latter.

So I was thinking today while doing an activity,and it went something like this,and it’s a thought I don’t like.

“If my parents or family went to hell and I to heaven,(this is where the hurtful and part I don’t like comes in) I’d hate/or stop following God” and it hurts to type this to ask for help.

please know I have zero desire at all to leave the lord,or let alone hate him EVER.It was more like a intrusive/voluntary thought,but I said a prayer to ask for help to overcome it and repent of the H word part.I in prayer constantly said to remove the emotions or motives for the opposition that pre exists or would be motivated by sed occurrence.

I don’t even h*** the lord;I never have and don’t seek reasons to do so,but when thagg to thought comes up it’s more of a caught off guard and seemingly unfair of that hypothetical occurrence.

can anyone offer help how to overcome this and to never ever ever ever ever ever EVER come to a point of H-wording the lord or committing apostasy?

I could "say" anything - the question is: "what does God's Word say"

A number of Christians have left the faith over that issue so you are not the only one to discover it.

1. 1 John 2:4,9 "God is love"
2. We do not become "less caring" or "less loving", or "less like God" when we get to heaven.

In Rev 21 we see that God " wipes away every tear". This is after the lake of fire event in Rev 20 has "devoured the wicked" Rev 20:7-9 in the lake of fire and brimstone. Only when that is over - is every tear wiped away in Rev 21.

Matt 10:28
28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

===================

No doubt there is anguish and sadness to see dear loved ones suffering for that period of time and Luke 12 says there will be more suffering for some than for others.

Luke 12:
47 And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not get ready or act in accordance with his will, will receive many blows, 48 but the one who did not know it, and committed acts deserving of a beating, will receive only a few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.

Each one suffers according to what they have done - Rev 20

Rev 20:11-15
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Trusting in Him]

God's not being unjust. He has made a full provision for all who willing to do so to turn to Him and be saved, if they are not willing, how is that God's fault. The bible says "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." (Revelation 21:4) I think that will include any sorrow for those who we knew in this life who chose not to accept him that they might have been saved.

 

[1watchman]

Hi everyone


Id like to ask a question concerning advice over the latter.

So I was thinking today while doing an activity,and it went something like this,and it’s a thought I don’t like.

“If my parents or family went to hell and I to heaven,(this is where the hurtful and part I don’t like comes in) I’d hate/or stop following God” and it hurts to type this to ask for help.

please know I have zero desire at all to leave the lord,or let alone hate him EVER.It was more like a intrusive/voluntary thought,but I said a prayer to ask for help to overcome it and repent of the H word part.I in prayer constantly said to remove the emotions or motives for the opposition that pre exists or would be motivated by sed occurrence.

I don’t even h*** the lord;I never have and don’t seek reasons to do so,but when thagg to thought comes up it’s more of a caught off guard and seemingly unfair of that hypothetical occurrence.

can anyone offer help how to overcome this and to never ever ever ever ever ever EVER come to a point of H-wording the lord or committing apostasy?

Several things come to my mind in the trouble you have in your mind, Blaise. One is that Satan (as the "beguiler" as God calls him) is always seeking to deceive us and whisper things in our mind; and turn us from reading God's word and His promises. We need to take God at His Word: "I will never leave you, nor forsake you", as He has spoken to His saints. IF you ARE in truth a saint by having God's "..beloved Son" in your heart (note John 3; John 14; Romans 8; etc.), then you are one of His 'beloved' ones and will be kept and helped (unless we rebel and dishonor Him and become "carnal" (acting in the flesh); then we will have much trouble along our way (though still a "child of God"). Let us not be seeking trouble thus!
We always have the flesh in us (being born in sin from Adam's time), but when truly redeemed and walking with the Lord Jesus daily, He will care for us and preserve us.
When the redeemed saints get to Heaven, they will not be thinking about the earth. When the Lord Jesus returns with His "bride" (the universal Church) to reign after the Tribulation time on earth for 'seven and a half years' under Satan's domain, the Lord Jesus will cast Satan into 'hades' (the holding place now) until alll lost souls are then cast into the "lake of fire" (Hell) with Satan forever. That is what God tells us clearly in His immutable "Word of truth".
Let us always stay in communion with our Savior: the Lord Jesus, and He will guide in the right way home to Heaven.
Feel free to write me personally on Conversation page herein if you wish to talk further on this. -1watchman.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I have pondered that perhaps in heaven we will not remember the bad aspects of our earthly existence. Nor will we be aware of what is going on in hell.
It is just so difficult to rectify the concepts. But then I remember it is not about me or us. It is about Him. All for Him. We are just the fortunate beneficiaries of His mercy and grace.

 

[Blaise N]

God's not being unjust. He has made a full provision for all who willing to do so to turn to Him and be saved, if they are not willing, how is that God's fault. The bible says "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." (Revelation 21:4) I think that will include any sorrow for those who we knew in this life who chose not to accept him that they might have been saved.

You’re absolutely right,he is perfectly just and definitely not unfair,but that’s how the thought made itself out,hence why I’m so distraught by it.

 

[Sophrosyne]

I have pondered that perhaps in heaven we will not remember the bad aspects of our earthly existence. Nor will we be aware of what is going on in hell.
It is just so difficult to rectify the concepts. But then I remember it is not about me or us. It is about Him. All for Him. We are just the fortunate beneficiaries of His mercy and grace.

I think one example of this would be when someone close to you dies and the grief and sadness wanes over time. You go from initially unable to get them and the sorrow out of your mind for even a day to not thinking about them for days or longer till you sort of get "reminded" of it.

My take is this: When we are often down in the dumps etc having a distraction from thinking about things that drag you down often makes you temporarily forget about them. Imagine a "distraction" called "Jesus" and how you are forever around him and basically cannot stop from being "distracted" by him how much you are going to think about other stuff that pales in comparison.
It is hard to hide in the dark when there is none in heaven.

 

[TedT]

“If my parents or family went to hell and I to heaven,(this is where the hurtful and part I don’t like comes in) I’d hate/or stop following God” and it hurts to type this to ask for help.

Matthew 10:37 “Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

If you are elect, you will be cured of this unworthy idolatry. If non-elect, you will die for this unworthy idolatry of putting people over your Creator GOD.

A person who has had his eyes opened to the utter horror of the suffering sin causes will never support the reprobate in their sin ever again but will come out from among them and stop touching their uncleanness; 2 Corinthians 6:17 Therefore, “Come out from them and be separate, says the Lord. Touch no unclean thing, and I will receive you.” So great will be the hatred you have for the evil reprobate and the suffering they chose to put all of creation through that you will be totally in accord with GOD's plan for their banishment to the outer darkness...with glee in your hearts: the joy of Malachi 4:2 “But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings, and you will go out and frolic like calves from the stall, 3 [when] you will trample the wicked, for they will be as ashes under the soles of your feet on the day I am preparing, says the LORD of Hosts. the image that makes the so called holy church cringe with embarrassment and horror, alas.

IF your eyes can be opened they will be opened to the great disvalue of sin and the eternal nature of the sin of the reprobate which will never end, never quit trying to corrupt you and bring you down with them: Gal 5:9 A little leaven leavens the whole lump.

If you cannot or will not allow your eyes to be so opened, then you will join them in their fate.

Amen.

 

[BobRyan]

I have pondered that perhaps in heaven we will not remember the bad aspects of our earthly existence. Nor will we be aware of what is going on in hell.
It is just so difficult to rectify the concepts. But then I remember it is not about me or us. It is about Him. All for Him. We are just the fortunate beneficiaries of His mercy and grace.

The problem with wiping our minds clean of all memory - is that it turns the entire 6000 year experiment in sin and rebellion into a pointless exercise "nothing learned, nothing gained" and billions of human lives lost -- all for nothing.

In 1 Cor 10 - Paul says the Bible record of sin, rebellion, failure and success is a "lesson book" and we should learn from it. that will hold true of the entire 6000 years of sin - the saints will be "witnesses" to how God was faithful and His promises true as tested in their lives - time after time on Earth.

 

[Waymarker]

Satan is a saboteur, inserting thoughts into our heads to cause disruption, so pay him no heed..
"The devil prowls round like a roaring lion" (1 Peter 5:8 )
"Don't give the devil a foothold" (Eph 4:27)
"Resist the devil and he'll flee from you" (James 4:7)

 

[Trusting in Him]

The problem with wiping our minds clean of all memory - is that it turns the entire 6000 year experiment in sin and rebellion into a pointless exercise "nothing learned, nothing gained" and billions of human lives lost -- all for nothing.

In 1 Cor 10 - Paul says the Bible record of sin, rebellion, failure and success is a "lesson book" and we should learn from it. that will hold true of the entire 6000 years of sin - the saints will be "witnesses" to how God was faithful and His promises true as tested in their lives - time after time on Earth.

God removing our sorrow, does not have to means that we won't remember everything!

 

[aiki]

Hi everyone


Id like to ask a question concerning advice over the latter.

So I was thinking today while doing an activity,and it went something like this,and it’s a thought I don’t like.

“If my parents or family went to hell and I to heaven,(this is where the hurtful and part I don’t like comes in) I’d hate/or stop following God” and it hurts to type this to ask for help.

please know I have zero desire at all to leave the lord,or let alone hate him EVER.It was more like a intrusive/voluntary thought,but I said a prayer to ask for help to overcome it and repent of the H word part.I in prayer constantly said to remove the emotions or motives for the opposition that pre exists or would be motivated by sed occurrence.

I don’t even h*** the lord;I never have and don’t seek reasons to do so,but when thagg to thought comes up it’s more of a caught off guard and seemingly unfair of that hypothetical occurrence.

can anyone offer help how to overcome this and to never ever ever ever ever ever EVER come to a point of H-wording the lord or committing apostasy?

Philippians 4:8
Hebrews 12:2-3
2 Corinthians 3:18

The Principle Of Conformity To Focus.

 

[com7fy8]

a thought I don’t like.

“If my parents or family went to hell and I to heaven,(this is where the hurtful and part I don’t like comes in) I’d hate/or stop following God” and it hurts to type this to ask for help.

God is our Good Judge. He knows how each person really is, no matter how anyone can convince you with their acting >

"But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived." (2 Timothy 3:13)

One deception is putting on a show that a person is so great and good and doing well, or some poor innocent victim, and therefore claiming he or she doesn't need Jesus. This can help others to miss out on sharing eternity with Christ. So, it is very evil, indeed. And God knows where to put such people, when they die.

Each of us is now investing in how we will be when we die. And then we will reap this . . . so much more than how we are becoming > Galatians 6:7-8.

So, I would say pray and trust God to prepare you for how He will want you to become by the time you are resurrected. And don't get tangled with theoretical thoughts and ideas, but our attention needs to be to Jesus and how God changes us to become and to love like Him > Ephesians 4:31-32 with Ephesians 5:2.

can anyone offer help how to overcome this and to never ever ever ever ever ever EVER come to a point of H-wording the lord or committing apostasy?

Trust God to have you become gentle and humble with Jesus and His people, and enjoy discovering how to love. This can keep your attention busy with what is wholesome and what makes us whole

Instead of worrying mainly about defending yourself against evil, give attention more to submitting to God and how He has us sharing with Him.

 

[Sketcher]

The way God is, and the way Heaven is, and the way Hell is, and the way all of that will be revealed to us (seeing it all for the first time), I think you'd be grateful to be in Heaven with him instead if it really came down to that.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Hi everyone


Id like to ask a question concerning advice over the latter.

So I was thinking today while doing an activity,and it went something like this,and it’s a thought I don’t like.

“If my parents or family went to hell and I to heaven,(this is where the hurtful and part I don’t like comes in) I’d hate/or stop following God” and it hurts to type this to ask for help.

please know I have zero desire at all to leave the lord,or let alone hate him EVER.It was more like a intrusive/voluntary thought,but I said a prayer to ask for help to overcome it and repent of the H word part.I in prayer constantly said to remove the emotions or motives for the opposition that pre exists or would be motivated by sed occurrence.

I don’t even h*** the lord;I never have and don’t seek reasons to do so,but when thagg to thought comes up it’s more of a caught off guard and seemingly unfair of that hypothetical occurrence.

can anyone offer help how to overcome this and to never ever ever ever ever ever EVER come to a point of H-wording the lord or committing apostasy?

There are two ways to look at this, the first is we really don't know where your parents will end up, even if they seem to be resistant to the gospel at this point. God can bring change.

The other issue is you need to remain focused on the goodness, and forgiveness of God. If he can offer you that forgiveness to you he will certainly offer it to your parents. Think of the number of times God says to treat others as we wish to treated or to love one another. God is love, He will give an opportunity to your parents. Ultimately however, it comes down to what they choose. But don't give up on the mercy offred by the cross, becasue someone else may do so.

 

[NothingIsImpossible]

Remember. In the end each of us is only responsible for ourselves. If a parent ends up in hell or heaven, that is on them. They make certain choices in life. And God is not to blame for that. He gave us all choices, we choose to listen or ignore. I know some think about it to deep and think God is bad because he could send them to heaven anyways, but that's just not how it is.

Being a Christian is not always a easy path. Sometimes people end up somewhere else because they chose to be. For example my mom is probably the biggest hypocrite there is. I am not trying to judge her and say she's going to hell, but since she was saved at a young age, nothing in her life has changed. Anger, rage, drinking, swearing, Gods name in vain, lying.....I really feel she's not going to heaven. And it makes me sad if that is the case because I don't want her to go to hell.

But I can't force her to choose. All I can do is work on myself and make sure I live the best life I can for God.

 

[Questioning Brother]

You won’t know which be they went to, and once there you will be overwhelmed by God’s presence.