Hell's Population Clock

Rajni

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I readily admit that the idea of people existing in an altered state, consciously suffering to time indefinite, makes no sense at all to my human mind's way of thinking, and seems to totally contradict the nature of a divine patron reputed to be kind, caring, and sympathetic. But just as science admits to many unsolved mysteries; so does Christianity. And there's no shame in that. The shame is in pretending to have complete understanding of a supernatural entity that by its very nature defies reason and common sense.
Indeed, perhaps the idea of existing in an altered state, consciously suffering forever might not even be what happens. God works in mysterious ways, after all, so we can't possibly conclude that such suffering is even a fact. "Unsolved mystery" doesn't automatically point to "most people frying in hell forever".
 
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frying in hell

The hell to end all hells (Rev 20:10-15) is described as a lake of brimstone; which is sort of like the sea of boiling pitch down on the 8th circle of Dante's inferno. Either way, it's a deep frying process similar to the way French fries are prepared at McDonald's.

Isa 66:22-24 . . From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me: says the Lord. And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.

That rather gruesome scene depicts a sort of tourist attraction similar to the La Brea Tar Pits museum in Los Angeles where the remains of prehistoric creatures are on public display that the curators dug out of ancient asphalt deposits.

/
 
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Rajni

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The hell to end all hells (Rev 20:10-15) is described as a lake of brimstone; which is sort of like the sea of boiling pitch described in Dante's inferno. Either way, it's a deep frying process like the way French fries are prepared at McDonald's.

Isa 66:22-24 . . From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me: says the Lord. And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.

That rather gruesome scene depicts a sort of tourist attraction similar to the La Brea Tar Pits museum in Los Angeles where the remains of prehistoric creatures are on public display that the curators dug out of ancient asphalt deposits.

/
McDonald's french fries are my absolute favorite.

As for folk fries, that's something we actually don't know to be the case. As you said, faith believes what's revealed to it rather than only what makes sense to it. In this case, nothing has been revealed to it that can definitively lead to the folk-fries conclusion. While believing in a deity that fries folks forever might make sense to many (after all, the angry god paradigm has been around since the caveman), it doesn't measure up logically or 'faithically'.
 
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ClementofA

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The hell to end all hells (Rev 20:10-15) is described as a lake of brimstone; which is sort of like the sea of boiling pitch down on the 8th circle of Dante's inferno. Either way, it's a deep frying process similar to the way French fries are prepared at McDonald's.

/

Compare that to the rich man in "hell" story (Lk.16:19-31) who was said to be in torments, the same word "torment" as used of those in Revelation.

The duration, nature & purpose of the torments the rich man was suffering are not revealed in this story. His torments there could have lasted less than 5 minutes.

"If I ascend up into heaven, Thou art there; If I make my bed in the nether-world (Sheol/Hades/hell), behold, Thou art there." (Psalm 139:8)

We are told the rich man requested water. He seemed to think a few drops of water would ease his sufferings. Apparently this isn't served in "hell" (Hades), but whether or not alcohol & morphine is on the menu is not revealed. After all, God is omnipresent.

Luke 16:27-28 seems to show the rich man's concern for others. Perhaps he was beginning to have a change of heart. Supposedly that is the purpose of those in Hades recieving the word of the Lord, in this case via Abraham.

So does this story do more harm than good for the endless tormenting god position, even if taken literally?

The story speaks of a great gulf fixed stopping the transfer of persons from one place to the other place. It does not say this gulf will remain in place forever. Only that at that moment in time it was so. Possibly the chasm barrier refers to the unrepentant state of those in Hades, & that once they repent the barrier stopping any individual from leaving is removed. Nor does the passage deny the possibility of salvation to the rich man in Hades while he remains there.

Lk.16:25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things,

"Son
Lit., child.

"Here, too, was one who, even in Hades, was recognised as being, now more truly than he had been in his life, a “child” or “son of Abraham.” (Comp. Luke 19:9.) The word used is the same, in its tone of pity and tenderness, as that which the father used to the elder son in the parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:31), which our Lord addressed to the man sick of the palsy (Matthew 9:2), or to His own disciples (John 13:33)."

Luke 16:25 Commentaries: "But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.

Any proof that the story of the rich man & Lazarus disproves universalism is absent from the story.

They get out of "hell" (Luke 16:19-31) in Revelation 20:11-15, if not sooner.

Fear not, said the angel who announced it, for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. Luke 2:10.

Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men. Luke 2:14.

Luke 3:5 Every valley shall be filled,
and every mountain and hill shall be made low,
and the crooked shall be made straight,
and the rough ways made smooth;
Luke 3:6 and all flesh shall see the salvation of God.

But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Luke 6:35

Luke 15:3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying, 4What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

Luke 15:8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?

Lk. 17:4 Even if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times returns to say, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.”

----------------

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

1 Jn.2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

"...it doesn't say what most evangelizers of hopelessness want it to say in that regard either."

"It is false, he maintained, to translate that phrase as "everlasting punishment," introducing into the New Testament the concept found in the Islamic Quran that God is going to torture the wicked forever."
 
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WebersHome

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As for folk fries, that's something we actually don't know to be the case. As you said, faith believes what's revealed to it rather than only what makes sense to it. In this case, nothing has been revealed to it that can definitively lead to the folk-fries conclusion.

Mark Twain once said; "Faith is a man believin' somethin' he knows ain't so"

I've been asked several times in the past how I know that my beliefs are true. My answer is: I don't know if they're true. Then of course they follow up with: Then why do you believe your beliefs are true when you have no way of knowing they're true?

Most of the people who ask me those kinds of questions are genuine; they're not trying to trip me up and make a fool out of me. They really are curious about it. So I tell them that though I don't know if my beliefs are true, my instincts tell me they are; in other words: I cannot shake the conviction that they're true.

Mark Twain once remarked that he didn't believe in an afterlife; but nevertheless expected one. In other words: Twain logically concluded that there is no afterlife, but his instincts did not agree with his thinking; and I dare not criticize him for that because even my own religion requires that I believe in my heart rather then only in my head.

I cannot verify the existence of hell with empirical evidence. Truth be told, the only verification that I can produce is the Bible and my own personal suspicions. But it's not what we suspect that counts; it's what we can prove that counts. So until somebody comes back from death with steam rising off their skin looking as if they've been crawling around the innards of a clam bake, then all we have to go on are gut feelings; which don't count for much in a court of law.

/
 
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Rajni

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So until somebody comes back from death with steam rising off their skin looking as if they've been crawling around the innards of a clam bake, then all we have to go on are gut feelings; which don't count for much in a court of law.
The positive thing in that scenario is that by coming back they will have proven that even if there is a hell, one doesn't have to remain there eternally.
 
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The positive thing in that scenario is that by coming back they will have proven that even if there is a hell, one doesn't have to remain there eternally.


I think the most you could probably get out of it is that people in hell are allowed time outs rather than permanent outs.

However, according to Luke 16:27-31, if people don't believe the Bible then neither will they believe someone back from hell.

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ClementofA

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However, according to Luke 16:27-31, if people don't believe the Bible then neither will they believe someone back from hell.

/


Many people would question if the dead one had actually died. OTOH if it were the resurrected Jesus, and they could stick their hands into His side, or see Him suddenly appear in a room with closed doors, as doubting Thomas did, [who refused to believe the other disciples' testimony that they had seen the risen Jesus] then they would most likely believe:

John 20:24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. 27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. 29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Compare also:

Matthew 11:21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

Luke 10:13 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.

Will Tyre & Sidon be damned forever because they didn't get a chance to see what would have brought about their repentance?

--------------------

Fear not, said the angel who announced it, for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. Luke 2:10.

Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men. Luke 2:14.

Luke 3:5 Every valley shall be filled,
and every mountain and hill shall be made low,
and the crooked shall be made straight,
and the rough ways made smooth;
Luke 3:6 and all flesh shall see the salvation of God.

But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Luke 6:35

Luke 15:3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying, 4What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

Luke 15:8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?

Lk. 17:4 Even if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times returns to say, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.”



https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
 
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Probably the first thing that most of us think of when we hear the word "hell" is everlasting torture; and that may be. But the reservoir of burning sulfur in the book of Revelation is actually not so much a rack as it is a gallows. The reservoir is primarily depicted as an instrument for carrying out death sentences rather than life sentences.

A death sentence-- although a sentence with lasting effects --isn't perpetual; it's momentary. In other words: criminals are subjected to execution only long enough to end their lives.

The primary reason we call the second death "eternal" is because it's permanent; viz: according to Dan 12:2 and John 5:28-29 there's only one resurrection allotted per person. Therefore nobody is coming back from the second death because they will have used up their one resurrection in order to face justice at the great white throne event depicted at Rev 20:11-15.

POPULATION CLOCK UPDATE: 21 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 1,275,330 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since June 19, 2017.

/
 
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ClementofA

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The primary reason we call the second death "eternal" is because it's permanent; viz: according to Dan 12:2 and John 5:28-29 there's only one resurrection allotted per person.

Scripture does not say there is only "one resurrection allotted per person".

Jn5:29 and come out—those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.…

Judgement is a good thing:

"My soul yearns for you in the night; in the morning my spirit longs for you. When your judgments come upon the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness."(Isa.26:9)

The Lord is acquainted with the rescue of the devout out of trial, yet is keeping the unjust for chastening in the day of judging. (2 Pet.2:9)

Jn. 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Jn.4:42 They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.”

Jn.12:32 "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."

Jn 12:47 I do not judge anyone who hears my words and does not keep them, for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

Hebrews speaks of those who reject Christ as deserving a "sorer" punishment than death by Moses' law, i.e. stoning:

10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated out of existence, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine who abandons forever the beings He created in His image & likeness so easily.

Heb.1:2a in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all

Heb.1:3b When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high

Heb.2:2b every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty

Heb.2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put
under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by
the grace of God should taste death for every man.

14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render
powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,

15 And might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf


1 Jn.2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.


"...it doesn't say what most evangelizers of hopelessness want it to say in that regard either."

"It is false, he maintained, to translate that phrase as "everlasting punishment," introducing into the New Testament the concept found in the Islamic Quran that God is going to torture the wicked forever."
 
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ClementofA

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Therefore nobody is coming back from the second death because they will have used up their one resurrection in order to face justice at the great white throne event depicted at Rev 20:11-15.

Rev.21:5 And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” And He said, “Write, for these words are faithful and true.”

Is "all" already made completely new (21:5), immortal & incorruptible when nations still need healing from the leaves of trees (22:2; Ezek.47:12)? Has death and reigning been abolished (1 Cor.15:24-26) while reigning continues (22:3-5 & 21:23,24)?

Verse 8 refers back to what already transpired in Revelation 20:13-15. And gives additional info re what persons will be cast into the lake of fire, calling it the second death. If death is gone (21:4), then why does the author refer to death again in 21:8?

It is a mistake to assume chapters 20-22 of Revelation are written in chronological order.

If everyone's destinies are finalized at 21:4-5, then why does God say in verse 6 "to him who is thirsting, will give of the fountain of the water of the life freely"? Because those in the lake of fire (21:8; 20:13-15) can still be saved? The gates into the holy city are never shut (21:25).

If 21:4 refers only to the saved at that time, verse 5 says in various translations God is "making ALL" new. And there is still death which hasn't been abolished yet (1 Cor.15:22-28).

1 Cor 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

"AS in Adam ALL die
SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.
BUT each in his own order:

1. Christ the Firstfruit;

2. Then they that are Christ's, at His coming;

3. Then cometh the end [order], WHEN He shall deliver
up the kingdom to God, even the Father; WHEN He shall
have abolished ALL rule and ALL authority and power.
For He must reign. TILL He hath put all His enemies
under His feet. THE LAST ENEMY THAT SHALL BE ABOLISHED
IS DEATH. (1 Cor. 15:22-26, R.V.)."

"...But each in his own order. Not a "but" of exception,
rather a "but" of order. ALL are to be made alive but at
different times. "Each in his own order." Three orders
are enumerated and located in relation to other events:

1. Christ the Firstfruit — Three days alter His death.

2. Then those who are Christ's — At His coming.

3. Then the end [order] — WHEN He shall deliver up the
kingdom."

"It is the third or "end" order that many overlook. A
thoughtful reading of this passage will enable most be-
lievers to see clearly that the words "then cometh the
end" refer to this end order to be made alive. The sub-
ject the apostle is elucidating is: The order in which
all who die in Adam will be made alive in Christ (vs. 22-
24). Christ the firstfruit (order one) and those who
are Christ's at His coming (order two) comprise only
a small part of the all who die in Adam. A third order
is necessary to make all alive. To refer the "end" to
anything else is to ignore the context and to introduce
something foreign to the subject. It cannot possibly
refer to an end of the kingdom, for though the kingdom
will be "delivered up" to the Father (1 Cor. 15:24), it
will never end (Luke 1:33)."

"Four statements in this passage indicate that the
words "then cometh the end" refer to the making alive
of an end order.

1. "As in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made
alive. But each in his own order" (vs. 22. 23).

2. "The last enemy that shall be abolished is death" (vs. 26).
It is the making alive of ALL that will abolish death. As long
as any remain dead, death has not been abolished.

3. "When all things have been subjected unto the Son" (vs.
27, 28). The dead must ALL be made alive if all are to be sub-
jected unto the Son. The only exception in this subjection is
God the Father.

4. "That God may be All in all" (vs. 28). This requires that
all be made alive. As long as any remain dead God cannot be
ALL in ALL, for He is not the God of the dead (Luke 20:37, 38)."

As in Adam all die
 
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ClementofA

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The context supports the view that both the life & the punishment referred to in v.2 are of finite duration (OLAM), while v.3 speaks of those who will be for OLAM "and further".

2 From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian life
and these to reproach for eonian repulsion." 3 The intelligent shall warn as the warning
of the atmosphere, and those justifying many are as the stars for the eon and further."
(Dan.12:2-3, CLOT)

The Hebrew word for eonian (v.2) & eon (v.3) above is OLAM which is used of limited durations in the OT. In verse 3 of Daniel 12 are the words "OLAM and further" showing an example of its finite duration in the very next words after Daniel 12:2. Thus, in context, the OLAM occurences in v.2 should both be understood as being of finite duration.

Compare v.3:

l·oulm u·od
for·eon and·futurity

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/dan12.pdf

OJB Hashem shall reign l’olam va’ed.
Yahweh shall rule to the eon and beyond (Exo 15:18)
Universal Version Bible The Torah By William Petr

Habbukah 3:6:

JPS Tanakh 1917
He standeth, and shaketh the earth, He beholdeth, and maketh the nations to tremble; And the everlasting[olam] mountains are dashed in pieces, The ancient[olam] hills do bow; His goings are as of old[olam].

Young's Literal Translation
He hath stood, and He measureth earth, He hath seen, and He shaketh off nations, And scatter themselves do mountains of antiquity, Bowed have the hills of old, The ways of old are His.

CLV
He stands and is measuring the earth; he sees and is letting loose the nations. And the mountain ranges of futurity are scattering; the eonian hills bow down; his goings are eonian.

Daniel 12:2:

Young's Literal Translation
'And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life
age-during, and some to reproaches -- to abhorrence age-during. (Dan.12:2)

Rotherham
and, many of the sleepers in the dusty ground, shall awake,—these, [shall be] to age-
abiding life, but, those, to reproach, and age-abiding abhorrence; (Dan.12:2)

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
 
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Q: Why is anyone in danger of hell when their passing satisfies the penalty for their sins as per Rom 6:23?

"The wages of sin is death"

A: Unfortunately everybody's passing is already earmarked for Adam's sin so it can't be used to satisfy the penalty for their own sins. (Rom 5:12, Rom 5:15, Rom 5:17-18)

Q: Well; how about the second death as per Rev 20:11-15? Won't that do the trick?

A: Death is the wages for each of your sins rather than all your sins at once. Here's how that works.

Supposing someone tells 200 lies in their lifetime. Well; according to the law of sin and death, they will be given the death penalty for each of those 200 counts of dishonesty.

The problem with that is; there are no more deaths after the second death; thus the serial liar will leave a balance of 199 lies on the books for which he will never have enough lives to pay.

/
 
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COMMON ATTITUDE: I'm special; God understands me and He knows I'm only human. Although God probably may not let others off; I'm sure He will make an exception for me because I'm not like other people; I'm different.

RESPONSE: Unfortunately, the Bible's God can't do that. If He were to make exceptions, God would be neither equitable, nor honest-- and worse, it would go against His grain, compromise His integrity, sin against His conscience; and cause Him to lose the world's respect. No; God doesn't grade on a curve: everyone is treated equally in God's courtroom. In a system of divine absolutes; there is neither a curve nor an exception: nobody gets any favors, and nobody is special.

Deut 10:17 . . Yhvh shows no partiality and accepts no bribes.

Acts 10:34 . .Then Peter began to speak: I now realize how true it is that God is impartial.

Rom 2:5-11 . . For there is coming a day of judgment when God, the just judge of all the world, will judge all people according to what they have done. He will give eternal life to those who persist in doing what is good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers.

. . . But he will pour out his anger and wrath on those who live for themselves, who refuse to obey the truth; and practice evil deeds. There will be anguish and calamity for everyone who practices evil-- for the Jew first and also for the Gentile. But there will be glory and honor and peace from God for all practice good --for the Jew first and also for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.

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WebersHome

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Q: Doesn't the Bible say that God's mercy endures forever as per Ps 100:5, Ps 106:1, Ps 107:1, and Ps 118:1, et al?

A: God's mercy is always available; but His patience sometimes wears thin. Good examples of that are the people swept away by the hand of God in the Flood, and those burned to death by the hand of God in Sodom and Gomorrah; and the firstborn of man and beast slain by the hand of God on Passover night in Egypt.

It's possible to push God too far. For example:

Hos 4:17 . . Ephraim is joined to idols; let him alone.

In other words: God instructed the prophet Hosea not to bother preaching in Ephraim. They were too far gone

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Jonah 4:9-11 . . God said to Jonah: Do you have a right to be angry about the vine? I do; he said. I am angry enough to die. But the Lord said: You have been concerned about this vine, though you did not tend it or make it grow. It sprang up overnight and died overnight. But Nineveh has more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot tell their right hand from their left, and many cattle as well. Should I not be concerned about that great city?

Had not the adults of Nineveh repented at Jonah's preaching, 120,000 small children would have died through no fault of their own. They would have been collateral damage due to their parents' decadence.


NOTE: Though the city was spared in Jonah's day, a hundred years later in Nahum's day it was destroyed by means of war and conquest.

Just exactly how God is able to engineer such things is a bit of a mystery; but does make one wonder where else this terrifying work of His goes on. Did God somehow have a hand in the American civil war, and the first and second world wars, and the Holocaust, and in Korea and Vietnam, and in the so-called Arab Spring, and in the pandemics, the ethnic cleansings, ISIS, the housing bubble, and the genocides of the last century, and in natural events like mighty earthquakes, tsunamis, and super storms? I really have to wonder sometimes because Jonah's God is still out there somewhere.

POPULATION CLOCK UPDATE: 24 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 1,457,250 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since June 19, 2017.

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WebersHome

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Christ was able to give a man eyesight blind from birth. He was able to repair withered arms and paralyzed legs in a moment of time right on site. He was able to turn water into wine. He was able to restore dead people to life. He was able to treat chronic bleeding. He could multiply bread and fish.

Well; if Christ can multiply bread and fish, then he can just as easily cause famine. And if he is able to restore health to arms and legs, then he can just as easily cripple people's arms and legs. And if he is able to make a man born blind to see, then he can just as easily cause blindness. And if he is able to turn water into wine, then he can just as easily turn water into strychnine. And if he is able to restore dead people to life, then he can just as easily cause people to drop to the floor dead. And if he is able to stop chronic bleeding, then he can just as easily make it begin.

I really don't quite understand why Christ's enemies weren't more afraid of him. Had they an ounce of IQ inside those bony little skulls of theirs, they would have realized just how dangerous it is to oppose him.

Christ wore a nice guy's hat when he was here the first time. His second-time's hat will be very different.

Matt 13:40-43 . . As the tares are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matt 13:47-50 . . Once again: the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Rev 6:15-17 . .Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. They called to the mountains and the rocks: Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?

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ClementofA

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It's possible to push God too far. For example:

Hos 4:17 . . Ephraim is joined to idols; let him alone.

In other words: God instructed the prophet Hosea not to bother preaching in Ephraim. They were too far gone

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Maybe in the Koran. Not in the Christian Scriptures:

Lam.3:31 For the Lord will not cast off for ever:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the sons of men.…

But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible. (Mt.19:26)


----------------


https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

1 Jn.2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

"...it doesn't say what most evangelizers of hopelessness want it to say in that regard either."

"It is false, he maintained, to translate that phrase as "everlasting punishment," introducing into the New Testament the concept found in the Islamic Quran that God is going to torture the wicked forever."

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
 
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Q: Why is anyone in danger of hell when their passing satisfies the penalty for their sins as per Rom 6:23?

"The wages of sin is death"

A: Unfortunately everybody's passing is already earmarked for Adam's sin so it can't be used to satisfy the penalty for their own sins. (Rom 5:12, Rom 5:15, Rom 5:17-18)

Q: Well; how about the second death as per Rev 20:11-15? Won't that do the trick?

A: Death is the wages for each of your sins rather than all your sins at once. Here's how that works.

Supposing someone tells 200 lies in their lifetime. Well; according to the law of sin and death, they will be given the death penalty for each of those 200 counts of dishonesty.

Rom 6:21-23 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. 22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end eonian life. 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The scriptures never speak of eternal or endless death. In fact death will be abolished (1 Cor.15:22-28).

If something so horrific as endless death or annihilation were meant, God had words He could have used to express it, but didn't. Such as "endless", "no end", "eternal"(aidios). Since He never chose to use such words re the final destiny of any unbeliever, He didn't teach endless annihilation or torments.

For the outcome of those things is death. (Rom.6:21b, NASB)
Those things result in death! (Rom.6:21b, NIV)

Even though you experienced the end (or result or outcome) spoken of as death in Romans 6:21, that result for you did not cause you to be endlessly annihilated, did it? And neither will it for anyone else. For all will eventually be saved:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying.

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."
 
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