• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.

Featured Hell's Population Clock

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by WebersHome, Jun 19, 2017.

  1. WebersHome

    WebersHome Well-Known Member Supporter

    +352
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    .
    Gen 3:19 . . By the sweat of your brow shall you get bread to eat, until you return to the ground-- for from it you were taken. For dust you are, and to dust you shall return.

    Did God have to smite Adam in order for him to stop living? No; it was only necessary to deny Adam access to the tree of life and let nature and hard work take their toll. In other words: since he was no longer immortal due to tasting the forbidden fruit, it would be only a matter of time before Adam simply gave out and passed away from wear and tear and old age.

    But what happened to Adam when his body returned to dust? Did he return to dust too? No; and that's because Adam wasn't entirely organic. His body came from the soil; but according to Gen 2:7, his consciousness came from God. The afterlife disposition of human consciousness is one of life's greatest mysteries. Heck, even the origin of human consciousness is mystery enough for some, let alone where it goes when people pass away.


    POPULATION CLOCK UPDATE: 981 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 59,576,130 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since June 19, 2017.
    _
     
  2. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

    +1,813
    Non-Denom
    Married
    I think Solomon answered the consciousness after death question very well...
     
  3. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    +4,860
    Non-Denom
    It would seem the Author & Finisher is failing to finish in less than stellar proportions (LOL).
     
  4. WebersHome

    WebersHome Well-Known Member Supporter

    +352
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    .

    Some of Solomon's remarks in the book of Ecclesiastes appear to conflict with Christ's teachings in the New Testament; that's actually to be expected.

    According to 2Tim 3:16, Solomon was inspired to write Ecclesiastes, but the catch is: his comments essentially represent a world view-- a philosophy of life under the sun --rather than a book of either history, revelation, or prophecy.

    In other words: Solomon's observations are limited to the scope of empirical evidence and human experience; a perception of reality moderated by what we can see for ourselves going on around us in the physical universe rather than the spiritual-- which is at least one of the reasons why Ecclesiastes appeals to cultists, atheists, and agnostics, et al.

    Solomon's world view is punctuated with pessimism; which is basically a mindset inclined to dwell on the negative in human experience rather than the positive. For example:

    "You only go around once, so do it with all the gusto you can get!"

    That was a Schlitz beer slogan some years ago. It's worldly wisdom thru and thru rather than Christ's. Compare it to a couple of Solomon's remarks:

    Ecc 9:5 . . The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all.

    Ecc 9:10 . . All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol, the place to which you are going.

    That wisdom reflects Schlitz beer wisdom, i.e. it's earthly wisdom rather than the wisdom that comes from above.

    Solomon was a very wise man; in point of fact, the brightest intellectual of his day. But Solomon's knowledge and experience were limited. He didn't know everything there is to know, nor had he seen everything there is to see, nor been everywhere there is to go. Whereas Christ's knowledge is extremely vast; in point of fact, his knowledge is unlimited.

    Col 2:3 . . Carefully concealed in him are all the treasures of wisdom and of knowledge.

    Christ, in his capacity as the Word, created everything existing in the current cosmos.

    John 1:3 . . All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.

    So then, it only stands to reason that Christ would know more about the afterlife than Solomon because the Word has actually seen it for himself, whereas Solomon didn't see anything beyond the grave when he penned Ecclesiastes.

    A good rule of thumb to apply when the teachings of Solomon and Jesus contradict each other, is to keep in mind that Jesus is Solomon's superior, viz: Jesus' teachings trump Solomon's.

    Matt 12:42 . .The queen of the south will be raised up in the judgment with this generation and will condemn it; because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, but, look! something more than Solomon is here.

    John 3:31 . . He that comes from above is over all others.

    And Jesus comes highly recommended too.

    Matt 17:5 . . This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved; listen to him.

    So then, when encountering remarks in the book of Ecclesiastes that are out of step with Jesus' teachings in the New Testament; my unsolicited spiritual counseling is to ignore the cults' take on Ecclesiastes and go with the wisdom of "my Son".

    John 8:12 . . I am the light of the world. He that follows me will by no means walk in darkness, but will possess the light of life.


    POPULATION CLOCK UPDATE: 984 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 59,458,320 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since June 19, 2017.
    _
     
  5. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

    +1,813
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Well said, as far as you go with it. I still consider Hell to be a 404.
     
  6. WebersHome

    WebersHome Well-Known Member Supporter

    +352
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    .
    Were I to be asked my opinion what might be an attitude that is just about guaranteed to put people on the road to hell, my answer would have to be indifference.

    Heb 5:8-11 . .Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; and being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him-- called of God an high priest after the order of Melchizedek; of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

    "dull of hearing" refers to a lack of interest, viz: indifference; for example:

    Zech 7:11-12 . . But they refused to hearken, and pulled away the shoulder, and stopped their ears, that they should not hear. Yea, they made their hearts as an adamant stone, lest they should hear the law, and the words which The Lord of hosts hath sent in His spirit by the former prophets: therefore came a great wrath from The Lord of hosts.

    Again:

    Matt 13:13-15 . .Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand. In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah, which says: "You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.

    . . . For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them."

    And again:

    John 3:19-21 . .This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.


    POPULATION CLOCK UPDATE: 989 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 60,061,970 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since June 19, 2017.
    _
     
  7. WebersHome

    WebersHome Well-Known Member Supporter

    +352
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    .
    Gen 6:3 . . And the Lord said: My Spirit shall not strive with man forever for they are only mortal flesh.

    A problem with flesh is it's brevity. The human body eventually loses its vigor, so God has a limited amount of time to work with people before they pass on. Were humans immortal, He would have plenty of time to turn people around; but alas, without access to the tree of life, such is not the case; which is why I sometimes advise certain folk to use what time they have remaining to begin preparing themselves for the worst when they pass on.


    POPULATION CLOCK UPDATE: 995 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 60,426,350 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since June 19, 2017.
    _
     
  8. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    +4,860
    Non-Denom
    Dear Webers: It would seem the Father is losing more than He is restoring back to Himself?

    Evidently the Source of the all is not the Goal of the all, the ta pante.
     
  9. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    +3,020
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Others

    Jesus has stated a condition. "He that follows me." He did not say "everyone will possess the light of life." Therefore the converse is "He that does NOT follow me will by all means walk in darkness, and will NOT possess the light of life."
     
  10. WebersHome

    WebersHome Well-Known Member Supporter

    +352
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    .
    "It is the irrevocable character of their choice, and not a defect in the infinite divine mercy, that makes the angels' sin unforgivable. There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, just as there is no repentance for men after death." (CCC 393)

    That quote is taken from the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Well; I don't really know just how true it is, but Jesus said something that suggests very strongly to me that Rome is spot-on.

    John 8:21-24 . . Once more Jesus said to them, "I am going away, and you will look for me, and you will die in your sin. Where I go, you cannot come."

    . . .This made the Jews ask, "Will he kill himself? Is that why he says, 'Where I go, you cannot come'?"

    . . . But he continued, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am [the one I claim to be], you will indeed die in your sins.


    POPULATION CLOCK UPDATE: 999 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 60,669,270 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since June 19, 2017.
    _
     
  11. WebersHome

    WebersHome Well-Known Member Supporter

    +352
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    .
    FAQ: Are there any non religious ways to heaven?

    A: Surgery.

    Matt 19:12 . . For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother's womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven.

    Matt 5:29 . . If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out, and throw it from you; for it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.

    Matt 5:30 . . And if your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off, and throw it from you; for it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to go into hell.


    POPULATION CLOCK UPDATE: 1,013 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 61,519,490 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since June 19, 2017.
    _
     
  12. Shrewd Manager

    Shrewd Manager Through him, in all things, more than conquerors. Supporter

    +2,198
    Australia
    Christian
    Single
    But do they now need to self-immolate for 14 days first?
     
  13. WebersHome

    WebersHome Well-Known Member Supporter

    +352
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    .
    Most of the boys I grew up with really wanted to experience sleeping with a girl at least once in their lives. Well; the Viet Nam war foreshortened the lives of a pretty large number of boys in their teens, and also young men in their early twenties, who never got to see their dream come true. On top of that, some of them not only missed out on sleeping with a girl, but they went straight to hell from the battlefield.

    I can only imagine how grief-stricken those guys must be. They not only missed out on this life, but the next too. Hell for them is a double whammy of despair; defined by Webster's as utter loss of hope. i.e. to expect neither relief nor improvement in one's circumstances.

    Eccl 3:1 . . To everything there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven.

    Well; there's a time to get laid-- in hell there's no going back to make up for lost time.


    POPULATION CLOCK UPDATE: 1,016 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 61,701,680 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since June 19, 2017.
    _
     
  14. WebersHome

    WebersHome Well-Known Member Supporter

    +352
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    .
    Gen 3:16 . . And to the woman He said: I will make most severe your pangs in childbearing; in pain shall you bear children.

    The thing to note is: this particular punishment was unexpected; viz: it isn't specifically listed in Gen 2:17 as a consequence for tasting the forbidden fruit.

    Something else that's notable is that neither the Serpent nor the tree's chemistry, played a role in Eve's new circumstances. God said "I will make". In other words; the physical and emotional unpleasantries associated with bearing children came about via the hand of God.

    Here's another:

    Gen 4:11-12 . .Therefore, you shall be more cursed than the ground which opened its mouth to receive your brother's blood from your hand. If you till the soil, it shall no longer yield its strength to you. You shall become a ceaseless wanderer on earth.

    The punishments inflicted upon Cain weren't according to the letter of a legislated code. They were judgments under the table, so to speak, that took Cain's personality into consideration along with his conduct rather than his conduct alone. The hand of God is able to proceed that way in situations where no law has been broken.

    But though He sometimes gets personal-- and even passionate --when God lowers the boom on people; I think we can be confident that even when angry, He remains fair rather than becoming prejudiced and/or arbitrary.

    In other words: the punishments inflicted on Eve and Cain aren't an example of God lashing out at people or throwing a hissy fit, rather, they were consequences that-- although unexpected --each deserved.


    POPULATION CLOCK UPDATE: 1,026 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 62,308,980 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since June 19, 2017.
    _
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2020
  15. Shrewd Manager

    Shrewd Manager Through him, in all things, more than conquerors. Supporter

    +2,198
    Australia
    Christian
    Single
    See, you really should check your theology there. If you think these boys, lives tragically cut short for no fault of their own, will be going straight to hell for their troubles, then I daresay you don't know God. HE SAVES. He wipes away all the tears and restores ppl in Christ.

    On the other hand, maybe your doomed child soldiers can meet some young rape victims who are also in hell for blaming Jesus for their ordeal just before they were murdered or committed suicide.

    Actually, sounds like your hell is largely populated with the victims and losers of this world. Well then, that's where we must go to help the needy. Right?
     
  16. Shrewd Manager

    Shrewd Manager Through him, in all things, more than conquerors. Supporter

    +2,198
    Australia
    Christian
    Single
    Did God condemn Eve to Hell? She committed a cardinal sin. Not unless the pain of childbirth is hell.

    Did God condemn Cain to hell for fratricide? That's a pretty bad first degree murder, with malice aforethought. No, he was cursed to live as a vagabond.
     
  17. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    +3,020
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Others
    Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
    Matthew 25:31-33
    31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
    32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
    33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
    EOG Matthew 25:46 Then he will answer them. saying ‘Amen. I tell you: a much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' “These [[ones on the left]] will go away into eternal punishment.[κολασιν αιωνιον/kolasin aionion] but the righteous into eternal 1ife.


     
  18. Shrewd Manager

    Shrewd Manager Through him, in all things, more than conquerors. Supporter

    +2,198
    Australia
    Christian
    Single
    So Adam and Eve suffer double jeopardy, punished twice for the same offence? Bit harsh. Maybe if God had placed them on notice as to the sentence of eternal damnation, all this mess could have been avoided.
     
  19. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    +3,020
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Others
    If you don't like what scripture says talk to God, I didn't write it I only quoted it. Everyone who God punished in the OT all the people of Noah's day, the people of Sodom etc. will also so be judged after the resurrection.
     
  20. Shrewd Manager

    Shrewd Manager Through him, in all things, more than conquerors. Supporter

    +2,198
    Australia
    Christian
    Single
    You seem to think that 'judgment' connotes an angry Roman magistrate dishing out jail terms. Why not the Book of Judges-type judge? The deliverer, the saviour, the restorer-type judge.
     
Loading...