Hell's Population Clock

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John 6:53 . . I tell you the truth: unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.

I'm not dead, I'm alive, or so I thought anyway. Apparently the kind of life that I have as a creature is existence, which is in some way, somehow, technically different than life. So then, if I exist without life; then I must be a dead man walking, so to speak.

Well; in point of fact, the kind of life that Jesus spoke of is eternal life; which is quite a bit different than human life.

John 6:54 . .Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life

Eternal life is impervious to death; simply put, it cannot be killed nor can it grow old and die. Jesus had it prior to his crucifixion.

John 5:26 . . As the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.

1John 1:1-2 . .That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched-this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us.

Eternal Life and Immortality are not synonymous because the Lord's eternal life didn't prevent his death on the cross.

And according to John 6:54, the apostles had eternal life too, but it didn't prevent their deaths either. They're all gone.

Note the grammatical tense of the statement below; it's present tense rather than future, indicating that when people correctly eat and drink the Lord's flesh and blood, they obtain eternal life immediately-- no delay and no waiting period.

John 6:54 . .Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life

Whereas according to 1Cor 15:51-53, they obtain immortality later.


POPULATION CLOCK UPDATE: 1,040 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 63,159,200 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since June 19, 2017.
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FAQ: If the consequence for rejecting Christ is eternal punishment in hell, then why does Matthew 10:28 say: "Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

If people's souls are destroyed along with their body, doesn't that mean complete annihilation of all consciousness and none existence? If so; then how can they be conscious of eternal punishment?


A: Adam was warned that he would die the very day he tasted the forbidden fruit. However, Adam continued to live for several centuries afterwards; which tells me that the death of souls spoken of in Matt 10:28 may not be all that quick, rather, they may have to endure a lingering death. In other words: the lost should probably expect to soak in brimstone an unspecified number of years before they finally, and completely, pass away: if ever.

POPULATION CLOCK UPDATE: 1,043 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 63,341,390 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since June 19, 2017.
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FAQ: What does Eph 2:3 mean where it says: We were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

A: Well; in a nutshell; it means that the sum of all fears is the only option for human nature.

FAQ: But human nature is intrinsic in human beings, viz: human nature is what makes us human. You mean people are missing out on heaven just for being human?

A: Yes.

POPULATION CLOCK UPDATE: 1,047 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 63,584,310 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since June 19, 2017.
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There is a significant difference between pollution and corruption.

Pollution refers to surface contamination whereas corruption refers to internal decay; for example;

"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness." (Matt 23:27-28)

The Pharisees were the most righteous men in all of Israel; they were squeaky clean, but their piety was only skin deep. Down in their innermost being there was decay going on not easily detected.

One year a pine tree broke off at its base and fell into my yard nearly striking my house. From all outward appearances, the tree appeared strong, healthy, and sturdy; but when it's trunk snapped open, we could see that it was nearly hollowed out from internal dry rot.

Now, it's very possible there a number of people in pews, behind pulpits, sitting on church boards, and/or singing in choirs who are shining examples of the Christian way of life; while within themselves yearning for the very things that they have both renounced and denounced. They have escaped the pollutions of the world, but not the corruption.

Jesus labeled those people "hypocrites" which is from a Greek word pertaining to actors, i.e. pretenders: people playing a role, viz: going thru the motions.


POPULATION CLOCK UPDATE: 1,050 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 63,766,500 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since June 19, 2017.
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I've read Luke 16:19-31 all the way thru several times and yet to find where the rich man was curious about how long he could expect to be incarcerated in the fiery sector of Hades.

Well; that's not hard to sleuth. He no doubt encountered lots of people who've been down there since the days of Cain, the Flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, and the Pyramids. Plus, the scuttlebutt would assure him that nobody up to the time of his arrival had ever been released so he shouldn't get his hopes up that he'd be the first.

Something else. The rich man in the story doesn't protest his fate in the fiery sector of Hades. Apparently the man fully understood that he deserved it; and that's not hard to sleuth either.

People down there at the time of the rich man's arrival had access to solid error-free Bible teaching. Abraham wasn't the only prophet across the chasm, all the big guns were over there too; including the man himself: Mr. Moses ben Levi. I know that's true because the Lord said that nobody up to his time had ever been taken to heaven. (John 3:13)

» It's ironic that condemned souls in the fiery sector of Hades might know the Bible better than a good many Christians warming pews, teaching Sunday school, and pounding pulpits.


POPULATION CLOCK UPDATE: 1,057 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 64,191,610 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since June 19, 2017.
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POPULATION CLOCK UPDATE: 1,057 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 64,191,610 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since June 19, 2017.
_

Instead of focusing on your addition capabilities it would be wise to focus on the One who is the Beginning & Ending!

From Him the all, through Him the all, to Him the all.
 
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FAQ: Doesn't Ps 146:3-4 says that when a man dies his thoughts perish that very day.

A: The Hebrew word for "thoughts" in Ps 146:3-4 is 'eshtonah (esh-to naw') which has nothing to do with either existence or awareness. The word is very ambiguous and refers to quite a variety of meanings to choose from; including, but not limited to: concerns, anticipations, conceptions, opinions, imaginations, visualizations, ideas, epiphanies, plans, schemes, fantasies, arguments, aspirations, deliberations, and the like.

For the rich man and his barns in Jesus' parable at Luke 12:16-20; I would choose ideas, plans, and schemes.

For example: consider all those people who perished in the World Trade Center, and in the Japan and Indonesia tsunamis, and the Haiti earthquake. None of them woke that day planning on it being their last on earth. No, on the contrary; they had people to see, places to go, and things to do: but before the day ended; whatever was on their itinerary lost its importance-- their priorities went right out the window and became no more significant than green cheese on the moon.

All their plans, their dreams, their schedules, their appointments, their schemes, their problems, their ambitions, their loves, and their aspirations went right down the tubes as they were suddenly confronted with a whole new reality to cope with.

The fact is: Ps 146:3-4 doesn't mean that people cease to exist when they die, nor do they lose awareness; no, it only means that whatever was on their minds before they passed away is now null and void.

Take for example Michael Jackson. While working on a new world tour, Jackson died in his sleep. As a result; his tour wrapped on the spot.

When my eldest nephew was paroled from prison, he quit drinking, and began going to college with the goal towards becoming a counselor. For 2½ years all went well. His parole officer was happy, and he was on track and getting good grades. My nephew's future looked assured. And then on the morning of Sept 25, 2015, he dropped dead to the floor of natural causes.

My nephew's passing was a terrible disappointment to everybody; but actually we all kind of expected it. He was grossly overweight, had high blood pressure and high cholesterol, rarely exercised, and smoked. But the point is; my nephew's dream ended just as abruptly as flipping a light switch. And all of our hopes for his success ended the same way, viz: our thoughts perished right along with his.

Death is the mortal enemy of human ambitions. It often casts its long shadow when they set about planning their lives. The Scottish poet Robert Burns noticed that life sometimes throws a curve ball that makes all your careful preparations strike out instead of getting you on base.

He was working one day plowing in the field and uprooted a mouse's underground nest who was all set for the oncoming winter. The mouse had picked a fallow field as the site for its winter retreat thinking it would be safe and snug; unmolested during the cold. But it didn't (or maybe we should say it couldn't) know the workings of powers higher than itself-- in this case, farmers and their machinery.

Mousie, you are not alone in proving foresight may be vain.
The best laid schemes of mice and men go often askew,
And leave us naught but grief and pain for promised joy.


POPULATION CLOCK UPDATE: 1,072 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 65,102,560 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since June 19, 2017.
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ClementofA

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I've read Luke 16:19-31 all the way thru several times and yet to find where the rich man was curious about how long he could expect to be incarcerated in the fiery sector of Hades.

Well; that's not hard to sleuth. He no doubt encountered lots of people who've been down there since the days of Cain, the Flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, and the Pyramids. Plus, the scuttlebutt would assure him that nobody up to the time of his arrival had ever been released so he shouldn't get his hopes up that he'd be the first.

Something else. The rich man in the story doesn't protest his fate in the fiery sector of Hades. Apparently the man fully understood that he deserved it; and that's not hard to sleuth either.

People down there at the time of the rich man's arrival had access to solid error-free Bible teaching. Abraham wasn't the only prophet across the chasm, all the big guns were over there too; including the man himself: Mr. Moses ben Levi. I know that's true because the Lord said that nobody up to his time had ever been taken to heaven. (John 3:13)

» It's ironic that condemned souls in the fiery sector of Hades might know the Bible better than a good many Christians warming pews, teaching Sunday school, and pounding pulpits.


POPULATION CLOCK UPDATE: 1,057 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 64,191,610 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since June 19, 2017.
_


Even of the rich man in Hades (Lk.16:19-31) it is not stated how long his torments would last while there. Or denied that they could end while still there. Nor is it denied he could be saved while still in Hades. The rich man's Saviour is in Hades:

"If I ascend up into heaven, Thou art there; If I make my bed in the nether-world (Sheol = Hades), behold, Thou art there." (Psalm 139:8)

The rich man is called "son" (literally, "child") :

Lk.16:25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things

"Here, too, was one who, even in Hades, was recognised as being, now more truly than he had been in his life, a “child” or “son of Abraham.” (Comp. Luke 19:9.) The word used is the same, in its tone of pity and tenderness, as that which the father used to the elder son in the parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:31), which our Lord addressed to the man sick of the palsy (Matthew 9:2), or to His own disciples (John 13:33)." Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers

The rich man in Hades is receiving the Word of Truth from Abraham. If not to lead those there to repentance & salvation, why would anyone in Hades be receiving such truths.

When it is implied that the rich man is where he is due to his lack of compassion for his fellow man, in particular Lazarus, he responds positively by turning his attention from himself to his brethren still alive & requests that they be warned about Hades. Is the rich man turning from his selfishness & showing concern for others?

The story speaks of a great gulf fixed stopping the transfer of persons from one place to the other place. It does not say this gulf will remain in place forever. Only that at that moment in time it was so. Possibly the chasm barrier refers to the unrepentant state of those in Hades, & that once they repent the barrier stopping any individual from leaving is removed. Nor does the passage deny the possibility of salvation to the rich man in Hades while he remains there.

" “And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.” "

" "So even if we made the mistake of trying to extract from the details of this parable a position on the issue of whether there will be further chances, there still wouldn’t be much cause for taking this passage as supporting the doctrine of no further chances with any force at all. For as long as the [one] who believes in further chances sensibly allows for the possibility that, while punishment is occurring, those suffering from it can’t just end it any time they want, she can make perfectly good sense of the words this parable puts into the mouth of Father Abraham. After all, if a road has been covered with deep enough snow drifts, we’ll tell someone who must drive on that stretch of road to get to where we are, “You cannot cross over from there to us.” We’ll say this quite properly and truthfully, even if we know full well that the road will be cleared in a few days, or that, in a great enough emergency, a helicopter could be used to get across to us even today, if, say, we’re at a hospital. [But doesn’t that show that there is a sense, then, in which they can cross over to us? Yes, there’s a perfectly good sense in which they can, and a perfectly good sense in which they cannot. For enlightening and accessible explanations of the meaning of “can” and related words, I recommend Angelica Kratzer’s “What ‘Must’ and ‘Can’ Must and Can Mean” (Linguistics and Philosophy 1 (1977): pp. 337-355) and example 6 (“Relative Modality”) of David Lewis’s “Scorekeeping in a Language Game” (Journal of Philosophical Logic 8 (1979): pp. 339-359.]"

The duration, nature, intensity & purpose of the torments the rich man was suffering are not revealed in this story. His torments there could have lasted less than 5 minutes.

In Rev.20:11-15 those in Hades get out of Hades, so Hades (Lk.16:19-31) is not a place of unending torments. Assuming the parable's story is even to be taken literally.

Tom Talbott said:

"As for the unbridgeable chasm of which Jesus spoke in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, not one word in this parable, even if taken as literal history, as some do take it, implies that the chasm between Hades and Abraham’s bosom will remain unbridgeable forever. Do not Christians believe that the cross has already guaranteed the ultimate destruction of sin and death, where the “last enemy to be destroyed,” as we have already noted, “is death” itself? When 1 Peter 3:19 depicts Jesus as preaching to the spirits in prison (or those who were disobedient in the days of Noah) and 1 Peter 4:6 also depicts him as preaching the gospel to the dead, do these texts not illustrate perfectly the view of Elhanan Winchester,13 who wrote: “I believe, that Jesus Christ was not only able to pass, but that he actually did pass that gulph, which was impassable to all men but not to him”?14 Even if one should take the details of this parable more literally than one should, in other words, one can still view the Cross as the means whereby Jesus Christ has bridged this hitherto unbridgeable gulf. By flinging himself into the chasm between the dead and the living and by building a bridge over it, Jesus thus brought his message of repentance and forgiveness to all people, including those in Hades, which is the abode of the dead."

How to Read the Bible from a Universalist Perspective


---


We might also want to consider these passages in the same book of Luke's gospel:

Fear not, said the angel who announced it, for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. Luke 2:10.

Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men. Luke 2:14.

Luke 3:5 Every valley shall be filled,
and every mountain and hill shall be made low,
and the crooked shall be made straight,
and the rough ways made smooth;
Luke 3:6 and all flesh shall see the salvation of God.’”

Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Luke 6:35

Luke 15:3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying, 4What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after
that which is lost, until he find it?
Luke 15:8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?

Lk17:4 Even if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times returns to say, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.”

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POPULATION CLOCK UPDATE: 1,072 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 65,102,560 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since June 19, 2017.

Almost as many as died from coronavirus in Michigan last week.

'Checked into the fiery sector of hades' - always gets me, well done.

But can Jesus bridge that chasm, fill that void, cross that gulf? I say yeppers!
 
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The story speaks of a great gulf fixed stopping the transfer of persons from one place to the other place. It does not say this gulf will remain in place forever. Only that at that moment in time it was so. Possibly the chasm barrier refers to the unrepentant state of those in Hades, & that once they repent the barrier stopping any individual from leaving is removed. Nor does the passage deny the possibility of salvation to the rich man in Hades while he remains there.

" “And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.” "

The teaching? If you deny outsiders hope, so too will hope be denied you.

But not forever, as I dare not deny hope to any rich man in that predicament.
 
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Junia

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"Hell" is never mentioned in the Bible. Sheol, Gehenna and Hades are mentioned but none are synonymous with hell. The present day Christian concept of hell derives mostly from Dante's medieval novel "The Divine Comedy".

as i understand it, what we call Hell is referring to the lake of fire. no one is there yet. the lake of fire is where those who are damned along with satan, will go after The Great White Throne Judgement.
 
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People have been filtering into perdition not only since the time of Christ, but since before the Step Pyramid of Djoser, and even before the Flood. I won't speculate how many years that might be, but h.sapiens is thought by some to have achieved full behavioral modernity something like 50,000 years ago. Whether that extends clear on back to Adam and Eve I have no clue; but just think: if it does, then Cain and others from his era have been down in the netherworld all this time.

It's difficult for the human mind to appreciate 50,000 years. I've been on the Earth for just 73, and I've noticed that my childhood is so far in the past to me now as to seem more like a fantasy than a memory. But you know; when you're talking about eternity, 50,000 years isn't even a drop in the bucket. If it were a drop in the bucket, it would be a bucket with no bottom; which is roughly akin to the futility of a gnat attempting to drink up the Atlantic ocean. It would also be akin to Forrest Gump thinking he could fill a sieve with water faster by dipping it into a bucket instead of using the tap.

But just think: time stands still in hell: it's for the now; it's an existence. People who arrived there yesterday didn't begin doing time in jail like Lindsay Lohan expecting to get out some day; nor is perdition a temporary tour of duty like shipping out to Afghanistan. No, people in hell are in it as perpetual residents; they're in a rut.

They go year, after year, after year, after year, with no relief from the pain and discomfort: no vacations, no recreation, no reading materials, and no hobbies-- there's absolutely nothing to do but reminisce and writhe in fire. The mental atrophy, and the boredom that must result from that kind of mindless existence is beyond estimation.

In life, everybody enjoys God's blessings; even the really bad people. We're all breathing fresh air, basking in sunshine, drinking cool water, savoring tasty foods, listening to birds chirp, star gazing at night, throwing snow balls at each other in winter, river rafting, fishing, snow skiing, tending gardens, pruning shrubs, greeting friends during the holidays, spending days with grandkids; and all that sort of thing. In the Bible's hell, there are no blessings of any kind at all: only perpetual sadness, vexation, despair, and want.

In hell's unruly society; it's reasonable to expect quarrels, bickering, hard feelings, vendettas, rivalry, selfishness, insensitivity, irritation, aggravation, and ugly words exchanged between people. Is there really any good reason to be courteous and/or respect your fellow man's human rights in the Bible's hell; or to be kind, forgiving, affable, genial, courteous, cordial, charitable, altruistic, tolerant, generous, and patient? I was once discussing the netherworld with a co-worker and he remarked: "Hell won't be so bad; I'll have plenty of friends down there". Yes, he probably will have lots of friends in hell; but I really don't think he should count on them being friendly.

And the din: think of the volume of noise down there with all the wailing and sobbing, and the screams, shrieks, yelps, howls, and gnashing teeth. I get rather irritated by the behavior of late night comedy audiences. I can only imagine how much worse I'd be annoyed in hell with its thousands and millions of people making all that kind of racket.

But just imagine bringing with you a craving for tobacco with none available. Or longing for a cocktail with no liquor in sight. A desire for music, with no way to produce it. A skill for writing, with no pen and paper. Yearning for a walk out in nature, with no world to do it in.

People in the Bible's hell will never again savor a sea breeze, sit in the shade of a tree, take deep breaths of mountain-fresh air, play at sports, hear a bird chirp, see a sunset, watch a lunar eclipse, jog in the park, strum a guitar, enjoy a Christmas dinner with loved ones; nor make little pigs of themselves gobbling barbecued spare ribs and corn on the 4th of July.

Sports and recreation are gone: no more World Series, no more Super Bowl, no more Olympics, no more Las Vegas, no more Indian casinos, no more lottery, no more Lego World, no more Sea World, no more NASCAR, no more golf, no more surfing, et al.

No baths, no showers, no sleep, no TV, no radio, no iPods, no computers, no Twitter, no texting, no FaceBook, no Instagram, no YouTube, no MySpace, no internet, no clean sheets, no breakfast, no lunch, and no dinner. No snacks, no gum, no candy, no flowers, no parks, no rivers, no snow, no seasons, no picnics, no malls, no fast food, no trades, no careers, no trendy fashions, no jewelry, no cosmetics, no concerts, no operas, and no hobbies; absolutely nothing of this world that brings people the pleasures and the satisfactions of just being alive.

No pets are allowed in the Bible's hell and no flowers or vegetation of any kind. The absence of birds, fish, and animals of course precludes the citizens of hell ever again spending a day at the zoo. The one advantage of the lack of pets and vegetation in hell is the absence of fleas and allergies. I suppose you could say that's at least one good thing about it. There's a bright side to everything I guess; even to that place.

/

it sounds horrible. now we need to go preach Gospel to all we meet s they dont end up there. am so glad that we have been spared this horrible palce but what baout htose we know?
 
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Junia

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Prov 23:7 For as a man thinks in his heart, so is he.

Be careful, too much thinking & dwelling on hell (Ghenna, etc.) is dangerous.

Tilt your head back, look up & keep saying ... "Hello Father, Lord Jesus, I love you & I am so looking forward to being with You for eternity."

Brian Mc. amen! yes that is a healty focus.
 
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as i understand it, what we call Hell is referring to the lake of fire. no one is there yet. the lake of fire is where those who are damned along with satan, will go after The Great White Throne Judgement.

Not quite: There are 4 (four) hells. Those hells are NOT the Lake of Fire. All four are cast into the Lake of all lakes, they are NOT cast into themselves.

Search "damned"

Your search query has yielded no results.

Please modify your search & try again.
 
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Junia

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Not quite: There are 4 (four) hells. Those hells are NOT the Lake of Fire. All four are cast into the Lake of all lakes, they are NOT cast into themselves.

Search "damned"

Your search query has yielded no results.

Please modify your search & try again.

ok. so does that mean there are people in hell or in one of them (or all of them) now? because Jesus' spoke of the rich man and Lazarus but he could have been speaking of fututre rather than present?
 
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Solomon's man under the sun feels there is no conscious existence for people beyond the death of their body; whereas Christ taught that one's soul doesn't necessarily perish with the body.

Matt 10:28a . . Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul.

According to Gen 2:7, the soul is what makes people sentient beings. Christ assures us that part of human existence is able to survive the death of the body; but it's still vulnerable to termination.

Matt 10:28b . . Be afraid of the one who can destroy both soul and body in hell.


FAQ: If the soul and the body are destroyed in hell; what's left?

A: The spirit.

According to Gen 2:7, the spirit is the life force that makes otherwise inanimate materials sentient.

Christ's spirit survived the death of his body.

Luke 23:46 . . Jesus called out with a loud voice: Father, into your hands I entrust my spirit.

People's spirit is just as much a component of their human existence as the soul and the body; for example people currently survive in heaven without a body by means of their spirit.

Heb 12:23 . . the spirits of righteous men made perfect


FAQ: Since the soul doesn't necessarily perish with the body, then what became of Christ's soul when he passed away on the cross?

A: It was taken to Hades. (Acts 2:22-32)

FAQ: Isn't that where the rich man ended up per Luke 16:19-31?

A: Back in Jesus' day, Hades was the afterlife destination of all the dead: the young and the old, and the bad and the good. Abraham and Lazarus were in Hades too, but of course the accommodations in their sector were much better than the rich man's-- they at least had access to water; he doesn't.

POPULATION CLOCK UPDATE: 1,074 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 65,224,020 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since June 19, 2017.
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FineLinen

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POPULATION CLOCK UPDATE: 1,074 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 65,224,020 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since June 19, 2017.

iu

Welcome to the god who loses most of his reach for sinners.
 
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ClementofA

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Solomon's man under the sun feels there is no conscious existence for people beyond the death of their body; whereas Christ taught that one's soul doesn't necessarily perish with the body.

Matt 10:28a . . Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul.

According to Gen 2:7, the soul is what makes people sentient beings. Christ assures us that part of human existence is able to survive the death of the body; but it's still vulnerable to termination.

Matt 10:28b . . Be afraid of the one who can destroy both soul and body in hell.


FAQ: If the soul and the body are destroyed in hell; what's left?


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Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

God "can" destroy. That doesn't mean He will. Nor does "destroy" mean endless annihilation.

In the book of Daniel King Nebuchadnezzar lost his soul when God made him act insanely like an animal for 7 years. God's destruction/ruining of the kings' soul meant the loss of his soul for the king.

Likewise the prodigal son "lost" (same Greek word as "destroyed" in Mt.10:28) his soul when he left his father for the world. Later when he "came back to his senses", he "found" his soul. His Father said his son was "dead" and "lost" (i.e. destroyed). Though he was obviously never annihilated.

How is it that God is "able" to destroy body & soul in Gehenna. Supposedly if angels cast people into it, that in itself could destroy their mortal bodies, due to the fires in Gehenna. But how would literal fire destroy a non corporeal soul? If Satan & demons are there to possess people, just casting them into Gehenna could result in them being spiritually & psychologically destroyed/ruined in a multitude of ways we cannot even imagine, e.g. demon possession. I'm sure that experienced shrinks have a bit of an idea of what that might involve. Or deliverance ministers/exorcists.

Not only is God "able" to destroy [or ruin, lose] both body and soul...Jesus followers are told they must destroy their own souls to "find" them:

Mt.10:39 He who is finding his soul will be destroying it, and he who destroys his soul on My account will be finding it. clv

Mt.10:28 And do not fear those who are killing the body, yet are not able to kill the soul. Yet be fearing Him, rather, Who is able to destroy the soul as well as the body in Gehenna.

Others can kill your body, but not your soul. God can destroy soul and body in Gehenna. v.28

You can destroy your own soul. v.39...that is, ruin it.

By speaking of destroying your own soul, v.39 refers not to endless annihilation of your soul. So, in context, neither does verse 28 when God speaks of destroying a soul.

If you don't willingly destroy your soul (v.39) in this life, God will/is able to do it for you in the afterlife (v.28). But whether He does it for you or not, you will surely destroy your own soul by "finding" it (v.39) in this life. Since you destroy [but not annihilate] your own soul by finding it, why would God need to destroy it again, even though He is "able"? Though it is conceivable He could destroy it to a greater degree than it was destroyed before. Especially if people in Gehenna continued to rebel and harden themselves...cf Lk.11:26; Mt.12:45...7 times worse can occur. Scripture speaks of evil men shall becoming worse and worse, of the deep things of satan some have known, being possessed with a legion of demons, & few and many stripes (Lk.12:47-48).

What does it mean that God "can" ruin or destroy a soul in Gehenna? Would this be ruin as in cessation of existence or something like a spiritual death as in, for example, dead in sins (Eph.2:1)? Or as in what God did to the king in the book of Daniel in making him act like an animal for 7 years, before returning his soul back to sanity, resulting in him being humbled & worshiping God? Or, as in being delivered to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme (1 Tim.1:20)? BTW, Satan will be there in the LOF with human blasphemers.

Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme (1 Tim.1:20).

Even in this life one can be delivered to Satan for destruction that one may be saved:

1 Cor.5:5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

Of course the spiritually dead are already dead in sins. But this does not preclude there being various degrees of spiritual deadness or destruction (i.e. ruin) of their souls. Similarly the Scriptures speak of those who are worthy of few stripes & others who are worthy of many stripes, & similarly. Surely a distinction is to be made between a relatively innocent infant or child, a rebellious teenager & those who have apostacized from the faith, or demons & Satan. It is conceivable that it is always possible for the spiritually dead to experience greater degrees of destruction to their souls should they continue to rebel in the LOF and until they finally repent. Though, ever given the choice to turn to God, it is mathematically impossible that they would continue to reject God for eternity.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

A building that is "destroyed" is not annihilated forever or even annihilated. It is ruined. Then it can be rebuilt, restored or repaired. Like the fixing of a car engine:

"When shopping for a used car, one of the kinds of vehicles that buyers may come across is rebuilt cars. While there are slight variations from state to state, rebuilt cars are cars that have been, through accident or other means, totaled and repaired or rebuilt from the ground up."

As to the meaning of the word "destroy", Websters' first definition is "ruin" and second definition is to "put out of existence":

Definition of DESTROY

A common definition of "destroy":

"ruin (someone) emotionally or spiritually.
"he has been determined to destroy her" "

The same Greek word at Mt.10:28 for "destroy" is used of the "lost" [destroyed, ruined, damaged] prodigal son who was later found, who was said to be dead, but later became alive.

The same Greek word is used later in Mt.10:

Mt.10:39 He who is finding his soul will be destroying it, and he who destroys his soul on My account will be finding it. clv

By speaking of "destroying" our own "soul" [v.39] did Jesus mean we could annihilate it out of existence? Evidently not. So why should we think He meant annihilation of the soul earlier in the context [v.28] when speaking of the exact same thing, i.e. a soul being destroyed?

A passage in Matthew that has been interpreted as speaking of the possibility of release from "hell" (Gehenna) is:

Matt 5:25-26 . .Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

This is spoken of by Jesus in the context of references to Gehenna, both before and after this passage.

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Furthermore, the context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages." Why affirm belief in Hell?

Matthew was probably written to Jews & in the opening chapter of this book he told his readers that Jesus shall save His people from their sins (1:21), i.e. His people Israel (2:6). I take that to include people like Judas Iscariot & wicked Pharisees who died in their sins. But lest anyone think that is a licence to live sinfully, Jesus gives warnings such as those in Mt.10:28.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

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The rich man of Luke 16:19-31 is spoken of as deceased, buried, and relocated in a place called-- in the Greek --Haides; and within earshot right across from him are Abraham and Lazarus. (Luke 16:22-23)

Christ is spoken of as deceased, buried, and relocated in the very same place as the rich man. (Acts 2:25-31)

Now the interesting thing is: when Jesus passed away on the cross, he entrusted his spirit to God (Luke 23:46) but it wasn't his spirit that went to Haides, rather, it was his soul. (Acts 2:27 and Acts 2:31)

» The Greek word for "spirit" is pneuma, and the Greek word for soul is psuche

So Christ's afterlife experience was different for the various aspects of his being; viz: his spirit went in one direction while his soul went another, and his body yet another.

I think we can safely conclude from the above that the rich man was in Haides by means of his soul, and buried means of his body; while the question remains where went the man's spirit? To whom was that entrusted if not to God?


POPULATION CLOCK UPDATE: 1,077 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 65,406,210 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since June 19, 2017.
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ClementofA

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1 Cor.3:15 If any man’s work is burned, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, but as through fire.

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

The "His people" referred to are Israel (2:6) of the context. IOW people like Judas Iscariot, the son of perdition, & the Pharisees who were blaspheming Christ & or the Holy Spirit, etc.

Rom.11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

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