Hell's Population Clock

Sea Horse said:

I just saw wonderful preacher talking about hell and why it even exist . If anybody struggle with that question i really recommend watching this .

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Can you give a brief summary of what he said, because the video is over an hour long, and if the bottom line therein is that there is endless conscious torment and that Jesus' sacrifice wasn't quite enough to successfully rescue everyone from it, I already know I would disagree.

WebersHome said:

Within the context of the twenty-first chapter of Revelation, the absence of death, sorrow, weeping, and pain only pertains to people selected to be inhabitants of the new cosmos and the new earth.

In point of fact, according to Isa 66:22-24, the lake of brimstone depicted at Rev 20:10-15 will be a sort of tourist attraction on the new earth like the La Brea tar pits museum in Los Angeles where the remains of prehistoric beasts are on display. But of course the lake will contain human carrion instead of animal. I'd imagine the scene will resemble a huge apple-bobbing tub what with all the many thousands of carcasses floating around in it.

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(1) First of all, Isa.66:22-24 makes no mention of what has become of the souls of the "corpses" referred to:

23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

(2) Secondly, nothing in verses 22-24 says verses 23 & 24 refer to the lake of fire or the new earth. Consider Option A at the following re a premillennial take on Isa.65 & 66:

Isaiah 65-66: The Vision (Part 3) - Wasilla Bible Church

(3) I wonder how "corpses" (v.24) would survive in a lake of fire. Or worms (v.24) . OTOH worms could survive in a millennial eon garbage dump called Gehenna. As could "corpses" survive that were in parts of the garbage dump that were not completely consumed by fire.

(4) If it were the new earth, why does verse 23 refer to new moons and the sabbath?

“The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee; but the Lord shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory” (Isa.60:19)

Rev.21:22 But I saw no temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 And the city has no need for sun or moon to shine on it, because the glory of God illuminates the city, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24 By its light the nations will walk, and into it the kings of the earth will bring their glory.

(5) Even if the reference is to the new earth, if there are still "corpses" of the dead in the lake of fire, how is it that death has already been abolished (1 Cor.15:22-28)?

"Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead."

(6) For an interesting take on our passage, there is this alleged view:

"It is interesting that many of these comments touch on the concept that is well-articulated by C.S. Lewis' mentor, George McDonald, in his sermon, "The Consuming Fire." The concept is that God himself is the consuming fire and he will burn away all our iniquities, including those of Satan, who will emerge from the experience as the purified Lucifer, as he was created to be. This is what is pictured in Isaiah 66:24 where all beings will look upon their old selves as carcasses burning in God's eternally consuming fire. To understand this picture one must realize that the perspective is that of a totally redeemed eternal being looking back on his or her past life and sensing some regret for their own sins."

Origen on the Salvation of the Devil

7) In any case, when death is abolished (1 Cor.15:22-28) & all are made new (Rev.21:5, 5:13), the dead in the second death (lake of fire) will rise back to life "in Christ" & God will be "all in all" (1 Cor.15:22,28). IOW there will be universal salvation of every person that has ever lived since Adam was created.

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

Lazarus Short said:

Um...this same True God of Love told us not to even mention the name(s) of NOPE's (Name Of Pagan Entity).

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How do you figure? I think you've got it backwards, 180 degrees:

The Fathers of the Church, and the Prophets in the Old Testament, frequently refer to Pagan deities by name in order to denounce them. Thus, we find Baal, Asherah and other deities of Semitic lamguahe in the Hebrew Masoreric text. What we lack in the same text are the vowells of YHWH; the Name was deemed too holy to pronounce, amd the vowells were omitted to prevent or interfere with people speaking it in vain.

The name Jesus is an Aramaic derivative of Joshua, which means YHWH Saves, interestingly, and is also a name of God. I guess the readily available pronunciation of it vs. the obscurity of how YHWH is to be pronounced, if at all, is God providentially arranging society to reflect in the order of things how the Father is unknowable and beyond human comprehension, except through the Son, who reveals the Father.

WebersHome said:

See post #24

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That's quite an imaginative viewpoint. Which recalls George McDonald's interpretation of Isaiah 66 in post #203.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

WebersHome said:

According to Dan 12:2 and John 5:28-29, there is only one end-time resurrection allotted per person. This means that people executed in the lake won't be coming back because they will have used up their one allotted end-time resurrection to appear in court and face justice at the great white throne event.

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Those verses refer to resurrection, but they say nothing about them being the "only" one.

Nowhere do we read that those who die a second death in the lake of fire will remain in death forever. In fact, death will be abolished (1 Cor.15:22-28).

"Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead."

Regarding Daniel 12:

The context supports the view that both the life & the punishment referred to in v.2 are of finite duration (OLAM), while v.3 speaks of those who will be for OLAM "and further".

2 From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian life
and these to reproach for eonian repulsion." 3 The intelligent shall warn as the warning
of the atmosphere, and those justifying many are as the stars for the eon and further."
(Dan.12:2-3, CLV)

The Hebrew word for eonian (v.2) & eon (v.3) above is OLAM which is used of limited durations in the OT. In verse 3 of Daniel 12 are the words "OLAM and further" showing an example of its finite duration in the very next words after Daniel 12:2. Thus, in context, the OLAM occurences in v.2 should both be understood as being of finite duration.

The early church accepted the following Greek OT translation of the Hebrew OT of Daniel 12:3:

καὶ οἱ συνιέντες ἐκλάμψουσιν ὡς ἡ λαμπρότης τοῦ στερεώματος καὶ ἀπὸ τῶν δικαίων τῶν πολλῶν ὡς οἱ ἀστέρες εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας καὶ ἔτι[and further]

Notice the words at the end saying KAI ETI, meaning "and further" or "and still" or "and yet" & other synonyms.

eti: "still, yet...Definition: (a) of time: still, yet, even now, (b) of degree: even, further, more, in addition." Strong's Greek: 2089. ἔτι (eti) -- still, yet

εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας καὶ ἔτι means "into the ages and further" as a translation of the Hebrew L'OLAM WA ED[5703, AD]

So this early church Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures agrees with the above translation (& those below) using the words "and further" & similarly.

3 and·the·ones-being-intelligent they-shall- warn as·warning-of the·atmosphere
and·ones-leading-to-righteousness-of the·many-ones as·the·stars for·eon and·futurity (Daniel 12:3, Hebrew-English Interlinear)
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/dan12.pdf

2 and, many of the sleepers in the dusty ground, shall awake,—these, [shall be] to age-abiding life, but, those, to reproach, and age-abiding abhorrence;
3 and, they who make wise, shall shine like the shining of the expanse,—and, they who bring the many to righteousness, like the stars to times age-abiding and beyond. (Daniel 12:2-3, Rotherham)

2 And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches—to abhorrence age-during.
3 And those teaching do shine as the brightness of the expanse, and those justifying the multitude as stars to the age and for ever*. (Dan. 12:2-3, YLT)
* for "for ever" Young of YLT says substitute "age during" everywhere in Scripture: http://heraldmag.org/olb/Contents/bibles/ylt.pdf

Daniel 12:2-3 was the only Biblical reference to "life OLAM" Jesus listeners had to understand His meaning in John 3:16 & elsewhere.

Verse 3 speaks of those bringing "many" to righteousness. The "many" of verse 2, i.e. universal salvation.

WebersHome said:

FYI: The term "in Christ" is widely misunderstood. In a nutshell; everyone born of women starts out in Adam; in order to get one's self in Christ; it's necessary to be born of the Spirit as per John 3:3-8. People who fail to undergo that birth in this life won't be given an opportunity in the next.

"As God's fellow workers we urge you not to receive God's grace in vain. For He says: In the time of My favor I heard you, and in the day of salvation I helped you. I tell you; now is the time of God's favor, now is the day of salvation." (2 Cor 6:1-2)

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This passage, 2 Cor.6:1-2, makes no mention of God's love expiring, like the date on a milk carton, when this life ends. If that were so, where are all the babies & children who died without believing in Christ.

The word "the" does not appear in the Greek here:

2 Corinthians 6 δε AND συνεργουντες WORKING JOINTLY παρακαλουμεν WE URGE υμας YOU και ALSO μη NOT δεξασθαι TO RECEIVE την THA χαριν GRACE του OF THO θεου GOD εις IN κενον VAIN

Young's Literal Translation
for He saith, 'In an acceptable time I did hear thee, and in ***A*** day of salvation I did help thee, lo, now is a well-accepted time; lo, now, ***A*** day of salvation,' -- (2 Cor 6:2)

For He is saying, "In a season acceptable I reply to you, And in a day of salvation I help you.Lo! Now is a most acceptable era! Lo! Now is a day of salvation!" (CLV)

For he saith—In an approved season, have I hearkened unto thee, and, in a day of salvation, have succoured thee;—Lo! now, a well-approved season, Lo! now, a day of salvation: (Rotherham)

If it is "a" day of salvation that doesn't equate to "the only" day of salvation.

If today is "a" day of salvation, tomorrow may be another day.

To the Lord a day is as a thousand years (2 Pet.3:8).

Now is "a" day of salvation. The present moment is always "now", whether today or in a 1000 years after Paul wrote that or in 3000, 5000 or 10,000 years after he wrote it.

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. These things command and teach.

WebersHome said:

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NOTE: Justice is sometimes depicted as a set of scales. That's an important legal principle.

● Deut 19:21. . life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

● Ex 21:23-25 . .You are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

For example: the terrorists who flew airliners into the World Trade Center caused the unjustified deaths of more than two thousand people. In order for the scales of justice to balance, those men would have to put two thousand of their own lives on the scales.

In order to balance the scales of justice for the terrorists, they would have to be executed in the lake of brimstone, and resurrected to be executed again, for as many repetitions as it takes to balance the scales; and of course that scenario would include serial adulterers, serial liars, and any and all other serial sinners because the wages of sin is death for each sin.

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These speculative reasonings are irrelevant to the destiny of those in the lake of fire.

They will remain unsaved until they are saved, when all their sins will be washed away by the blood of the Lamb & tossed into the sea of God's forgetfullness, as if they had never existed.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

"When your judgments come upon the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness." (Isa.26:9)

The Lord is acquainted with the rescue of the devout out of trial, yet is keeping the unjust for chastening in the day of judging. (2 Pet.2:9)

51 And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem, 52 And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him. 53 And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem. 54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? 55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. 56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. (Luke 9)

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."


Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

WebersHome said:

According to Jesus Christ's testimony as a credible expert witness in all matters pertaining to the afterlife; most of the world's responsible souls haven't been making it to safety when they cross over to the other side.

● Matt 7:13-14 . . Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Webster's defines "many" as consisting of, or amounting to, a large but indefinite number; while "few" is defined as consisting of, or amounting to, only a small number; viz: relative to many then, few is the lesser. Bear with me while I flesh this out.

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Matthew wrote "few" finding it. Paul says "many" will (Rom.5:18-19). Who is wrong? How to harmonize?

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

Answer:

Matthew was speaking in the present tense (not final destiny)

Paul was speaking in the future tense (final destiny).

Also Paul was teaching universalism. The "many" in v.19 is a Hebraism meaning all. Just as Jesus says He would give His life a ransom for "many" (Mk.10:45) which Paul says is "all" people (1 Tim.2:4-6).


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https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

1 Jn.2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

If God doesn't save all, is it because He can't or doesn't want to?

"...it doesn't say what most evangelizers of hopelessness want it to say in that regard either."

"It is false, he maintained, to translate that phrase as "everlasting punishment," introducing into the New Testament the concept found in the Islamic Quran that God is going to torture the wicked forever."

WebersHome said:

The "many" spoken of in that passage is limited to "those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness" (Rom 5:17)

Non receivers are of course deprived both the grace and the gift.

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There will be no "Non recievers".

As per Jason Pratt's & Tom Talbott's remarks at the following urls.

"... it is nearly certain that Paul was here using the word ‘receiving’ in a passive sense. In the words of John Murray, the ‘word ‘receiving’…does not refer [in 5:17] to our believing acceptance of the free gift but to our being made the recipients’ of it. Indeed, Paul rarely used ‘lambano’ (‘to receive’) in the sense of ‘to take hold’ or ‘to accept believingly’. To receive something in his sense is simply to be the object or the recipient of it, as Murray says. We see this clearly in Romans 13:2, where those who receive (or incur) judgement are the objects or the recipients of it; they receive judgement in much the way that a boxer might receive severe blows to the head. Similarly, in Romans 1:5 those who ‘have received grace’ and in Romans 5:11 those who ‘have now received reconciliation’ are clearly the recipients of these effects in the same passive sense that a newborn baby receives life. My point is not that, according to Paul, salvation is possible apart from belief or faith; far from it. My point is that in 5:17 Paul was merely describing the effect of Christ’s righteous act upon its recipients, namely all humans, and comparing it to the effect of Adam’s disobedience; he was also pointing out that the former is far greater than (and therefore at least coextensive with) the latter."

Rom.5:17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men

19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just.

Does Rom 5:17 restrict the 'all men' in Rom 5:18?

http://www.tentmaker.org/pdf/pauls_universalism_ch5_talbott.pdf

Read Rom 8:13 ..... then put it into action ...... then read 1 John 4:17 .... Gal 2:20 ..... unless you are born again (john 3:3, 5, 7 you will NEVER enter the Kingdom of Heaven ..... to comply with Father & Lord Jesus' will, be fully baptised (as He set the example ... leaving the "old man ... the carpenter" behind .... then be fully clad in Father's armour (His Holy Spirit) ... Eph 6:10-17) THEN join the Holy Spirit & Lord Jesus (Rom 8:27, 34) in intercession for ALL the saints (God's consecrated people) ... see Eph 6:18

REMEMBER .... NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE WITH GOD ... a second is as a thousand years .... He can speak to & listen to EVERYONE at the same time .... think back to creation ... LET THERE BE ....& instantly it was done & the WORD He spoke was His son .... the WORD OF GOD!