Hello everyone, here is an article about Jesus not returning, is it true? I hope not.

[Ben_Hur]

I see your point, Justme, but there is a key passage on which you hang your whole argument that I believe to be taken in the wrong context:

This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

I take this "proclaimed to every creature under heaven" in the same way I take Romans 1, which simply states no one is without excuse for His existance is evident in His creation (I'm paraphrasing, of course).

 

[Pericles]

I keep saying that it looks like you are calling Jesus a liar yourself. This is the same thing as asking, "do you think Jesus is a liar?" I don't understand why you aren't answering that question. Maybe I missed your answer. This is, in fact, a long thread. (I am not calling Him a liar, by the way).

No, I believe Jesus is not a liar, otherwise I wouldn't be a Christian. This is about the 5th time I am asking this:

What did Jesus mean when he said "you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of man comes" ?

 

[Justme]

Hi Ben hur,

Could you point out the verses you are referring to in Romans 1. I'm not following very well.

Thanks

Justme

 

[Ephron]

No, I believe Jesus is not a liar, otherwise I wouldn't be a Christian. This is about the 5th time I am asking this:

What did Jesus mean when he said "you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of man comes" ?

I think He was talking about the timing of His second comming.

 

[Ben_Hur]

No, I believe Jesus is not a liar, otherwise I wouldn't be a Christian. This is about the 5th time I am asking this:

What did Jesus mean when he said "you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of man comes" ?

Here is the wording from the NKJV (Matt 10):

"21Now brother will deliver up brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. 22And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved. 23When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes."

I view the END as being the end of their life. Certianly, no man could endure to the end of the "age" since we only get about 80 years on Earth. Jesus did not expect his disciples to get through ALL of isreal before they would die.

Some commentaries indicate Jesus was refering to his FIRST comming, not the second, though I could not determine how that fits since he's already there. Unless His first "comming" is actually His resurection.

I also found this:

"Jesus statement in verse 23 is difficult; can He mean that He would return to this earth before the disciples would make it through all the cities of Israel? If so, this would make Jesus' plainly wrong; it is better to see His "coming" in this passage as His coming in judgment upon Judea in 70 AD, which did happen before the gospel came to every city in Israel" - David Guzik study guide


I'd probably go with the latter explanation than my own being as this guy probably is likely better studied than I am.

So what do you think it means?

 

[Linda8]

No, I believe Jesus is not a liar, otherwise I wouldn't be a Christian. This is about the 5th time I am asking this:

What did Jesus mean when he said "you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of man comes" ?

You need to know what CITIES OF ISRAEL refers to.

The Gospel has not reached all the Cities of Earth-ISRAEL.

 

[Ben_Hur]

Hi Ben hur,

Could you point out the verses you are referring to in Romans 1. I'm not following very well.

Thanks

Justme

Here we go:

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

Or do you believe that the Gospel had indeed been proclaimed to every creature [both man and non-man?] under heaven by the apostlse/desciples prior to Paul writing that passage?

 

[parousia70]

You need to know what CITIES OF ISRAEL refers to.

The Gospel has not reached all the Cities of Earth-ISRAEL.

Where does scripture teach that?

 

[Linda8]

Where does scripture teach that?

Let us start with what Israel meant from the inception of the name and progress over time from OT up till beyond NT.

God is never static and is so dynamic.

Israel was first the name of a human being.. Jacob GENESIS 35:10. God knew He would be the father of a nation and COMPANIES OF NATIONS in the future.


Of course with time, Jacob sired children and by God's grace , Jacob's family

grew and by the times of Exodus and beyond, together with those they left Egypt with, The descendants of Jacob were on their way to forming the nation of Hebrew Israel.

Now let us go into the New Testament. Christ is declared King over earth.

MATTHEW 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:


Mark 14:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the WORLD, and preach the gospel to every creature.
20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.


That is why Christ knew what he was talking about when he said they would not go through the cities of Israel-Earth.

Christ's kingdom OVER WHICH CHRIST SAID HE HAD ALL AUTHORITY IN MATTHEW 28:18, that is God's son Israel, is not a tiny kingdom.

Israel under Christ's authority became God's son of larger span, not just Judea/ Palestine area , but over the entire earth.

Again, God's truth always tends to come with some surprise in humans, but all it takes is patience.

God is not limited in his perspectives , especially during and after the 1st advent.

John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now
shall the prince [NKJV: ruler] of this world be cast out.

Christ had all authority in Heaven and over earth in the 1st century and Israel is no tiny nation.

 

[Justme]

Hi Ben Hur,

You wrote:

Or do you believe that the Gospel had indeed been proclaimed to every creature [both man and non-man?] under heaven by the apostlse/desciples prior to Paul writing that passage?

Yes, I think it has to be read as written because here again the meaning of the Greek word used for creature explains it. Here is that meaning from Strongs.


1) the act of founding, establishing, building etc

a) the act of creating, creation
b) creation i.e. thing created

1) of individual things, beings, a creature, a creation

a) anything created
b) after a rabbinical usage (by which a man converted from idolatry to Judaism was called)
c) the sum or aggregate of things created
c) institution, ordinance

When you first read it you think of dogs and cats and while I can't prove that didn't happen it doesn't sound right. When I put in the real meanings of the Greek, then it makes perfect sense.

Justme

 

[Justme]

Hi Linda8 and Parousia70,

I just looked up some Greek for another post and I may as well post it here again.

Of all the things the Greek words for world can mean, Israel is not one of them.

It may surprise some, but the Greek word in the manuscript for Isreal was, believe it or not...Isreal. No, it doesn't mean world, it means Isreal.

It confirms it in Matthew 10:6
6Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.

Jesus specifically tells them

"Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans

It means Isreal.

Justme

 

[Linda8]

Hi Linda8 and Parousia70,

I just looked up some Greek for another post and I may as well post it here again.

Of all the things the Greek words for world can mean, Israel is not one of them.

It may surprise some, but the Greek word in the manuscript for Isreal was, believe it or not...Isreal. No, it doesn't mean world, it means Isreal.

It confirms it in Matthew 10:6
6Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.

Jesus specifically tells them

"Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans

It means Isreal.

Justme

Your manuscript is incomplete. Does it not know the Old Testament?

ISRAEL is also the name of a human being. Genesis 35:10.

So in no way can anyone limit what Israel means.

Only God knows why He gave multiple meanings to Israel.

 

[Les Grands Pieds]

Has any prophecy in the Bible been false? I can't think of any that have been proved incorrect. For that matter, is anything in the Bible false?

Dieu, il a raison toujours!!!!!!

 

[parousia70]

So in no way can anyone limit what Israel means.

So Israel, in your view, can mean "Jupiter" or "Toilet Seat" or "Bicuspid" if you want it to?

If Israel can mean ANYTHING, Israel means NOTHING.

You still haven't estcablished from scripture that "Israel" means "Planet Earth".
But I'm happy to continue to watch you try.

 

[Ben_Hur]

Hi Ben Hur,

You wrote:

Or do you believe that the Gospel had indeed been proclaimed to every creature [both man and non-man?] under heaven by the apostlse/desciples prior to Paul writing that passage?

Yes, I think it has to be read as written because here again the meaning of the Greek word used for creature explains it. Here is that meaning from Strongs.


1) the act of founding, establishing, building etc

a) the act of creating, creation
b) creation i.e. thing created

1) of individual things, beings, a creature, a creation

a) anything created
b) after a rabbinical usage (by which a man converted from idolatry to Judaism was called)
c) the sum or aggregate of things created
c) institution, ordinance

When you first read it you think of dogs and cats and while I can't prove that didn't happen it doesn't sound right. When I put in the real meanings of the Greek, then it makes perfect sense.

Justme

So by the time of Pauls writing, you are saying that the Gospel had been preached, literally, to every creature (say, Man, woman and child) in the "known" world. Pretty sure that is probably not the case. Britian certainly was not aware of Christianity at this time, according to history books. I doubt the far east had heard it either, let alone, every man, woman, or child - probably not every man. And they new about the far east AND the British aisles. They probably hadn't hit everyone in Ethiopia either.

The known world was a pretty big place by that time.

This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

I don't think you can say that Paul meant literally that Gospel had been preached to everyone at the time of that writing. I mean, they could then rest for a few years until all the children of the known worlders became adults and they could start again.

 

[Justme]

Hi Linda8,

Reconcile the other verses I pointed out. How can it possibly be something other than Israel cities if they were told not to go to gentile places???????

The manuscript is the origonal, the best we get, it's what we go by. The manuscript doesn't KNOW the old testament, the manuscript just contains the details of God's word. In this case God had them write...Israel.

We look for the meaning in that certain verse.

As I said before God meant Israel, the cities of Israel. It sure would make no sense if God told His apostles they wouldn't get thru all the cities of the entire world. They would have to live to be 1800 years or more before all the cities of the planet came into being. Where's the sense in that. Didn't Jesus know there would be an America? Why would Jesus tell them they wouldn't get thru the cities of wherever before the coming if it was not the truth?

You kind of have to make these things semi logical if you want us to consider them.

Justme

 

[Justme]

Hi Ben Hur,

Well, that takes us back to a series of choices.

Paul says extremely clearly that the gospel had been preached...
Do we throw the verse out and consider Paul a lying idiot?

...do we look in other parts of the bible to discover a alternative meaning?

Or maybe we should look and see if other verses reconcile with the meaning as Paul wrote it word for word.

Then we would look at,as being discussed with Linda8, Matthew 10:23, Matthew 10:6. Matthew 24:14 compared with Matthew 24:3 and Matthew 24:34, Hebrews 9:26, ACts 2:17..

What verses would not agree with the word for word meaning of Colossians 1:23?

Justme

 

[Linda8]

So Israel, in your view, can mean "Jupiter" or "Toilet Seat" or "Bicuspid" if you want it to?

If Israel can mean ANYTHING, Israel means NOTHING.

You still haven't estcablished from scripture that "Israel" means "Planet Earth".
But I'm happy to continue to watch you try.

You are mistaken.

God does not limit what Israel means. It is not my choice to make.

Secondly, the meanings of Israel have been defined by God ,

and some of the other things you mention are not included.

Let us stick to the meanings of God below.

Genesis 35:10 And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel.
11 And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of NATIONS shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;

God states clearly that future NATIONS --- of earth in addition to the [past] tiny nation of King David .

God owns the Planet, it is amazing to see people disputing God's property.
He does not limit His property.

 

[Linda8]

Hi Linda8,

Reconcile the other verses I pointed out. How can it possibly be something other than Israel cities if they were told not to go to gentile places???????

The manuscript is the origonal, the best we get, it's what we go by. The manuscript doesn't KNOW the old testament, the manuscript just contains the details of God's word. In this case God had them write...Israel.

We look for the meaning in that certain verse.



Justme

It is imperative for you to understand that Jesus lived in the times preceding

the writing of that manuscript you speak of.

Now Jesus quoted verses from the Old testament.

Even that eunuch who met Philip in Acts was reading Isaiah's Book.

Hence any manuscript about the new testament era that claims no

knowledge of the Old Testament, is inaccurate because the people

of the New testament time regularly quoted the Old Testament.

Jesus spoke about not going to the Gentiles but to the lost sheep of Israel.

He did not specify cities of Israel in that quote. The subject of his instruction were the lost sheep of Israel , some of whom were LOCATED OUTSIDE Judea anyway.

Ever read the Book of James??

[size=+2]1[/size] James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad greeting.


It starts by saying the 12 tribes in dispersion scattered abroad.

NOW IF THEY LIMITED THEMSELVES to Judea, they would have missed out on getting the message to THE LOST SHEEP OF ISRAEL SCATTERED ABROAD
in the nations-Israel.

Jesus later told them to go to all nations-Israel.

God's intent is not static hence the time frame of Israel's size, was not static.

 

[Linda8]

It sure would make no sense if God told His apostles they wouldn't get thru all the cities of the entire world. They would have to live to be 1800 years or more before all the cities of the planet came into being. Where's the sense in that. Didn't Jesus know there would be an America? Why would Jesus tell them they wouldn't get thru the cities of wherever before the coming if it was not the truth?

You kind of have to make these things semi logical if you want us to consider them.

Justme

You forgot an important point.

Jesus knew very well that his apostles and others IN THE FUTURE would be needed to spread the Gospel to the Planet.

That is so obvious Jesus did not need to tell them that it would take over 1800 years. They were intelligent and they understood.


You have made the error in limiting Jesus's followers who were to spread the Gospel to the disciples of the 1st century.

Come now, that is exceedingly erroneous for they died a long time ago.

The words of Jesus are timeless and please never place restrictions on God.

God knows all the nations that would be created and those that would be destroyed.

It is totally wrong to overlook the fact that the Gospel reached billions centuries after Christ ascended to heaven, and Christ knew how long it would take for the Gospel to reach all continents.

Nobody can expect followers of Christ to spread the word to the Planet

when the Planet was still growing in nations, and even this century, new nations have JUST BEEN FORMED.