Hello everyone, here is an article about Jesus not returning, is it true? I hope not.

[armothe]

You have deviated completely from what we were discussing.

Hey, remember in post #89 where you were defending Linda's interpretation of Genesis 35:10? Where you both seem to claim the nations spawned from Jacob refer to India, China, Britain and all other modern nations? That is what we were discussing.

All I asked you was to explain how you could be 100% sure that a Jewish nation today is as Israelite as JESUS CHRIST was in terms of lineage. I am asking about your identification methodology regarding the location of 21 st century Israelites.

First of all, there are not multiple Jewish nations today. The only thing that could be considered a Jewish nation is the current country of Israel.

Second, I don't believe today's Jews come close to being as "Israel" as King David and Christ were.

King David and Jesus Christ have a documented, traced geneaological ancestry back to Jacob/Israel. That is 100% proof they were Israelites.
I seriously doubt the majority of Jews today could provide the same.

Thus, the only thing "Israel" about Israel today is the name of the country over in the middle east.

-A

 

[parousia70]

I don't believe it will be chips. Though under the skin chips would fit with puncture and engrave.

What is "puncture and engrave"?

 

[Pericles]

Jesus did not leave a family tree , yes?

Did God use human records to locate Israelites?

No.

You stated several days ago that you knew, FOR A FACT that today's Indians and Britons were Jews. Please tell us what your sources is, or admit that you are a liar and you fabricated the whole thing!

 

[Wills]

First of all, there are not multiple Jewish nations today. The only thing that could be considered a Jewish nation is the current country of Israel.

Second, I don't believe today's Jews come close to being as "Israel" as King David and Christ were.

King David and Jesus Christ have a documented, traced geneaological ancestry back to Jacob/Israel. That is 100% proof they were Israelites.
I seriously doubt the majority of Jews today could provide the same.

Thus, the only thing "Israel" about Israel today is the name of the country over in the middle east.

-A

We therefore agree that the Jews today cannot provide evidence as Jesus could provide to prove Israelite ancestry. This leads to a few further points that you could answer.

A number of Jews were massacred in 70AD.
Prior to that , the Jews were not really restricted to Judea etc , and under pressure they used to hide in places like Egypt, although briefly.

After 70AD, many migrated to various areas.

We both agree that no one today can provide genealogical links to
the kinsmen of Jesus and John the baptist etc
HOWEVER, THE JEWS did not disappear after 70AD and the Israelites procreated over the centuries after Christ ascended to Heaven.

So , based on this analysis, where could you locate the kinsmen of Jesus Christ (Israelites) today?
2- Does God know where they are today in the same way as He knew where
Joseph, Mary, John the baptists's father and mother were located back in the NT times?

3- Which nations TODAY , in your opinion, would have LIVING residents descending directly from the kinsmen of Jesus , that is descendants of Israelites/Jews from the first century AD? Bear in mind that the people may not even be aware of the fact that they are descended from Israelites and they may be living in different cultures today totally unaware of their lineage BUT GOD KNOWS where they are.

Yes?

Where have they been "hidden"?

 

[Ben_Hur]

"the gospel which has come to you, just as in ALL THE WORLD also it is constantly bearing fruit and increasing, even as it has been doing in you also since the day you heard of it and understood the grace of God in truth" - Col 1.

"continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister." - Col 1

Stop looking for excuses and accept the word of God for what it says! It is more important than you tradition and theology!

Tradition and theology has nothing to do with it. As I have indicated, I know almost nothing about "theology". I just read the Bible. When I read those verses, I read something different than you do. My mind goes right back to Romans 1. They can mean nothing else in light of the vastness of the "world." I am not looking for excuses, I'm using my God-given brain. Your interpretation makes absolutly no sense to me.

 

[Atkin]

I wonder if the Jews that went through the Holocaust thought the same thing. And you are assuming USA will still be around.

It is important to understand that the construction of "future" evil world leaders in the 21st century is a flight of fancy.

Verily I say to you, there are no Stalins waiting anywhere today.

The mightiest nations on Earth are way beyond the buffonery of Hitler etc.

Nobody will line up Americans, Swedes, Germans, English, French, Australians, Danes, Finns, South Americans, Africans etc to brand them like slaves with some mark of some human ruler/satan

You refer to the second world war and I say to you those days of tomfoolery are over.

Even Saddam was blown up to be some monster to rule the world.

He was whipped in a few weeks and no evil Muslim is going to take over this Planet.

With Europe asleep? With Australia standing aside meekly. Will not happen friend.

And the assumption that USA will be beaten up by some evil world ruler

is even more amusing? The USA is not going anywhere and will not be

beaten by no nation. Stories of China etc invading are fictional jokes ..

Some add a disappearance of a subset of true Christians into the events list forgetting that it does not change military might ( if such a disappearance would even take place).

 

[FreeinChrist]

Atkin, one constant in the universe is that people forget history and it certainly repeats itself.
The Holocaust seems like an unbelievable situation, but there have been many mass exterminations since of various peoples.
I wouldn't say never...it can happen again.

 

[Ben_Hur]

Atkin, one constant in the universe is that people forget history and it certainly repeats itself.
The Holocaust seems like an unbelievable situation, but there have been many mass exterminations since of various peoples.
I wouldn't say never...it can happen again.

Quite true. There are lots of Aryans today that argue it never happened.

 

[Pericles]

Jesus did not leave a family tree , yes?

Did God use human records to locate Israelites?

No.

Wills, I am still waiting for you to provide evidence that shows today's Indians and Britons are Jews! Where is your evidence for that statement?

 

[Wills]

Wills, I am still waiting for you to provide evidence that shows today's Indians and Britons are Jews! Where is your evidence for that statement?

We will get there in due course and the points below will elucidate on that aspect.
Kindly give your views re:the ff below... which would then help me answer your question.

I believe in mutual motion towards such conclusions. A step at a time...

Now, a number of Jews were massacred in 70AD.
Prior to that , the Jews were not really restricted to Judea etc , and under pressure they used to hide in places like Egypt, although briefly.

After 70AD, many migrated to various areas.

We both agree that no one today can provide genealogical links to
the kinsmen of Jesus and John the baptist etc
HOWEVER, THE JEWS did not disappear after 70AD and the Israelites procreated over the centuries after Christ ascended to Heaven.

So , based on this analysis, where could you locate the kinsmen of Jesus Christ (Israelites) today?
2- Does God know where they are today in the same way as He knew where
Joseph, Mary, John the baptists's father and mother were located back in the NT times?

3- Which nations TODAY , in your opinion, would have LIVING residents descending directly from the kinsmen of Jesus , that is descendants of Israelites/Jews from the first century AD? Bear in mind that the people may not even be aware of the fact that they are descended from Israelites and they may be living in different cultures today totally unaware of their lineage BUT GOD KNOWS where they are.

Yes?

Where have they been "hidden"?

 

[Atkin]

Atkin, one constant in the universe is that people forget history and it certainly repeats itself.
The Holocaust seems like an unbelievable situation, but there have been many mass exterminations since of various peoples.
I wouldn't say never...it can happen again.

You keep referring to the Holocaust which was targeted towards a number

of people in a few countries.

That is not on the scale of what I am referring to regarding that future evil world ruler.

6 million Jews lost their lives in the Jewish Holocaust.


Now , this future antichrist or evil ruler IS SUPPOSED TO PERSECUTE

CLOSE TO 2 BILLION PEOPLE Christians etc ---IMPOSSIBLE!


We are not talking about the Holocaust here or the Bosnia Serbia ethnic cleansing or the Bolsheviks-Russians "holocaust" which was in the tens of millions before the Jewish holocaust. Neither ar we talking of the level of Rwanda etc where close to a million died in their tribal morass..


Those are small scale events compared to how REVELATION 13 is interpreted by many people. THE MARK OF THE BEAST etc

There is no way that can happen to 2 BILLION CHRISTIANS

Nobody will line up Americans, Swedes, Germans, English, French, Australians, Danes, Finns, South Americans, Africans etc to brand them like slaves with some mark of some human ruler/satan

Impossible.

REVELATION 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six. ??

Saddam Hussein?? no way, North Korea's mad man? No way,
Kofii Anan? No, Prince Charles ?? The Pope?, ??

Ayatollahs??

The Taliban?

B Laden?

Roman Empire led by Vladimir Putin

Roman Empire led by Chirac, Gerhard Schroeder,???

Or some Chinese Mao resurrect??

The world today has gone totally beyond such madness.

 

[Pericles]

We both agree that no one today can provide genealogical links to
the kinsmen of Jesus and John the baptist etc
HOWEVER, THE JEWS did not disappear after 70AD and the Israelites procreated over the centuries after Christ ascended to Heaven.

I am not sure how this helps you answer my question, when initially you made a blank statement, indicating without a doubt that today's Indians and Britons are Jews.

So , based on this analysis, where could you locate the kinsmen of Jesus Christ (Israelites) today?
2- Does God know where they are today in the same way as He knew where
Joseph, Mary, John the baptists's father and mother were located back in the NT times?

I believe there isn't one single pure-blood Jew in the world today. Of course, I could be wrong, but to use this question as evidence to support your statement is silly! Yes, of course, God knows everything and can do everything. Does God know where the WMD's are in Iraq? Sure he does...

3- Which nations TODAY , in your opinion, would have LIVING residents descending directly from the kinsmen of Jesus , that is descendants of Israelites/Jews from the first century AD? Bear in mind that the people may not even be aware of the fact that they are descended from Israelites and they may be living in different cultures today totally unaware of their lineage BUT GOD KNOWS where they are.

No nation today has living "Jews". In order to meet the definition of a biblical Jew, you have to maintain a pure bloodline. Most, if not ALL the people that call themselves "Jews" today are not Jews. Just because you speak like a Jew, dress like a Jew and believe like a Jew doesn't make you a Jew.

There is plenty of evidence that suggests that the majority of people that call themselves Jews today are "Ashkenazi Jews", descendants of Khazaria. In about 740 A.D., king Bulan of Khazaria apparently decided to adopt judaism as a national religion, so a whole nation suddently became "jewish", being scattered across Poland, Germany and Russia. Do some reading on this...

Any anthropoligist today will attest to the fact that there is no longer a "jewish race", yet you continue to ignore facts and allow human tradition to dictate your understanding of the Bible. I understand you desperately NEED this in order to support your theology, but sooner or later you'll have to face the unavoidable facts!

Yes, God know everything...it's true. We don't! That's why he created us with intellect and the ability to search and learn information from our research, rather than ignoring facts.

I am still waiting for your evidence!

 

[armothe]

We therefore agree that the Jews today cannot provide evidence as Jesus could provide to prove Israelite ancestry.

Indeed.

A number of Jews were massacred in 70AD.

Yup, about 1.1 Million

Prior to that , the Jews were not really restricted to Judea etc , and under pressure they used to hide in places like Egypt, although briefly. After 70AD, many migrated to various areas.

Right, there was the Jewish Dispersia amongst several cities/countries mentioned in the NT: Syria, Rome, Greece, Asia, Eastern Europe...etc.
Remember, though; three times a year every Jewish male that was of age was required by Mosaic mandate to travel to Jerusalem and worship the Lord in the Temple (Exodus 23:17). This accounts for the several million Jews inhabiting Jerusalem at the time of the Roman Seige in 69-70 AD.
A few Jews (Christians) did manage to escape prior to the seige. And those who were not massacred in the seige were taken away as slaves to (mainly) Egypt. Some did return to Jerusalem several years later to rebuild their population.

We both agree that no one today can provide genealogical links to the kinsmen of Jesus and John the baptist etc

I think anyone would be hard-pressed to do so.

HOWEVER, THE JEWS did not disappear after 70AD and the Israelites procreated over the centuries after Christ ascended to Heaven.

I don't believe 100% of the Jews were wiped out - but quite a few of them were; along with everything else that made them Jewish. Not only that, but 70AD wasn't the only time the Jews were massacred.

132 AD Bar Kochba Revolt- 500,000 Jews were found dead. The rest of the Jews were either sold as slaves, hid in caves, or fled to other countries.

AD 153 Justin Martyr charged all Jews with murdering God.

AD 325 The Nicean decisions reject the Jewish believers in Yeshua.

AD 1099 The Crusaders come into Jerusalem, crowd the Jews into the Great Synagogue and burn them alive. Tens of Thousands of Jews died.

1290 AD The Jews are expelled from England.

1306 AD Jews are expelled from France.

AD 1492 The Spanish Inquisition - Jews are expelled and 1000’s are murdered in efforts to force them to convert to Catholicism.

1500’s Martin Luther preached against the Jews “We ought not suffer them or bear them any longer.”

1670 Jews expelled from Vienna.

Early 1900’s the Russian Orthodox Church decides to solve “the Jewish Problem” by saying “1/3 should be forced to convert; 1/3 should be starved by removing their lands; the remaining 1/3 should be
expelled” (“Fiddler on the Roof” movie ).

1930's Nazi's Genocide of Jews (6 million murdered).

So , based on this analysis, where could you locate the kinsmen of Jesus Christ (Israelites) today?

Using the history above it would be very, very difficult to find a true decendent of Jacob, a true Israelite.

Does God know where they are today in the same way as He knew where Joseph, Mary, John the baptists's father and mother were located back in the NT times?

God knows where everybody is. But just to clarify: Joseph, Mary, Zacharias & Elizabeth had Genaeological proof they were descended from Jacob.

Which nations TODAY , in your opinion, would have LIVING residents descending directly from the kinsmen of Jesus , that is descendants of Israelites/Jews from the first century AD? Bear in mind that the people may not even be aware of the fact that they are descended from Israelites and they may be living in different cultures today totally unaware of their lineage BUT GOD KNOWS where they are.

I wont' speculate to know the answer - nor should anyone. The Jews sorted history shows that it would be next to impossible for any human figure out. But like you said - God knows who is who.

What now? How does this make Great Britain a nation of Jacob? Are the 144,000 Israelites of Revelation living in Great Britain today and don't know it?

-A

 

[Wills]

Indeed.
Yup, about 1.1 Million
Right, there was the Jewish Dispersia amongst several cities/countries mentioned in the NT: Syria, Rome, Greece, Asia, Eastern Europe...etc.
Remember, though; three times a year every Jewish male that was of age was required by Mosaic mandate to travel to Jerusalem and worship the Lord in the Temple (Exodus 23:17). This accounts for the several million Jews inhabiting Jerusalem at the time of the Roman Seige in 69-70 AD.
A few Jews (Christians) did manage to escape prior to the seige. And those who were not massacred in the seige were taken away as slaves to (mainly) Egypt. Some did return to Jerusalem several years later to rebuild their population.

I think anyone would be hard-pressed to do so.

I don't believe 100% of the Jews were wiped out - but quite a few of them were; along with everything else that made them Jewish. Not only that, but 70AD wasn't the only time the Jews were massacred.

132 AD Bar Kochba Revolt- 500,000 Jews were found dead. The rest of the Jews were either sold as slaves, hid in caves, or fled to other countries.

AD 153 Justin Martyr charged all Jews with murdering God.

AD 325 The Nicean decisions reject the Jewish believers in Yeshua.

AD 1099 The Crusaders come into Jerusalem, crowd the Jews into the Great Synagogue and burn them alive. Tens of Thousands of Jews died.

1290 AD The Jews are expelled from England.

1306 AD Jews are expelled from France.

AD 1492 The Spanish Inquisition - Jews are expelled and 1000’s are murdered in efforts to force them to convert to Catholicism.

1500’s Martin Luther preached against the Jews “We ought not suffer them or bear them any longer.”

1670 Jews expelled from Vienna.

Early 1900’s the Russian Orthodox Church decides to solve “the Jewish Problem” by saying “1/3 should be forced to convert; 1/3 should be starved by removing their lands; the remaining 1/3 should be
expelled” (“Fiddler on the Roof” movie ).

1930's Nazi's Genocide of Jews (6 million murdered).

Using the history above it would be very, very difficult to find a true decendent of Jacob, a true Israelite.

God knows where everybody is. But just to clarify: Joseph, Mary, Zacharias & Elizabeth had Genaeological proof they were descended from Jacob.


I wont' speculate to know the answer - nor should anyone. The Jews sorted history shows that it would be next to impossible for any human figure out. But like you said - God knows who is who.

What now? How does this make Great Britain a nation of Jacob? Are the 144,000 Israelites of Revelation living in Great Britain today and don't know it?

-A

Good.

Well, the "144000 " [not necessarily equal to that number] , would

be living in various nations most probably ignorant of their lineage...

That is , life would just be rolling on fine and dandy till the appointed


time.... The sudden conversion from unreal to reality would then

initiate their revelation.

 

[armothe]

Good.

Well, the "144000 " [not necessarily equal to that number] , would

be living in various nations most probably ignorant of their lineage...

That is , life would just be rolling on fine and dandy till the appointed


time.... The sudden conversion from unreal to reality would then

initiate their revelation.

So I'm assuming we can conclude the following from our discussion:

1) There really is no true chosen nation/s of Israel amongst us today
2) Great Britain and India are not Jewish/Israelic nations
3) The gospel *was* preached to all nations (including Israel) by 70AD
Romans 16:25-26
4) Only God knows who the true Israelites/Jews are in today's world

Now, why are the 144k Jews significant to Eschatology?

-A

 

[Wills]

So I'm assuming we can conclude the following from our discussion:

1) There really is no true chosen nation/s of Israel amongst us today
2) Great Britain and India are not Jewish/Israelic nations
3) The gospel *was* preached to all nations (including Israel) by 70AD
Romans 16:25-26
4) Only God knows who the true Israelites/Jews are in today's world

Now, why are the 144k Jews significant to Eschatology?

-A

Yes, we are in agreement on a number of points.

1- Since the Israelites of Christ are not localised in a fixed place, there is no such kingdom

-- in fact , no human King exists other than Christ and He rules over nations, not a single country.

2- I introduced the 2 examples of Britain and India just to clearly explain the futility in trying to localise the Israelites to a fixed point.
Of course, those nations are not living as Israelites did under King David... but that

is not an issue at all from the perspective of Christianity.

My point was and I must stress this seriously that Israelites to be sealed by God
are not localised in one nation. The Bible makes that clear.. from all corners of Earth.

3- The Gospel being preached to all nations has to be looked at from the perspective that God does not expect us to rest on our oars... for even today, many are still lost.

4- The MOST important point of all is yes, only God knows who the number that are referred to in Revelation 7 are and the complexity is such that they themselves are not even aware.
They have lived lives that have been acceptable in the sight of God.

Now comes the mega question. Why the importance of the 144000..?

Well, God himself states their role in Revelation 7 and Rev 14 so I will let the Bible speak on that.

THE QUESTION that you would find interesting is WHAT will be the consequence
of MISIDENTIFYING JEWS/ISRAELITES in view of the deadly warning given by Christ
in REVELATION 3:9 AND REVELATION 2:9 ABOUT IMPERSONATING JEWS/ISRAELITES.?

CHRIST KNEW WHAT WOULD HAPPEN regarding impersonation and God will take note of this.

So my question to you is how does the possible misidentification of Jews/Israelites impact on the accuracy of Biblical interpretation and the direction of Christendom??

The implications are deep.

 

[Wills]

The Book of Revelation warns about adding to Israel anything that is not

genuinely of Israel , hence it is very dangerous to misidentify what God

has defined before the ages AS GOD'S ISRAEL.

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy,

-- If any man takes anything away from God's Israel or adds anytyhing to Israel that is not of God's Israel......consequences

 

[Pericles]

The Book of Revelation warns about adding to Israel anything that is not

genuinely of Israel , hence it is very dangerous to misidentify what God

has defined before the ages AS GOD'S ISRAEL.

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy,

-- If any man takes anything away from God's Israel or adds anytyhing to Israel that is not of God's Israel......consequences

WHAT? Where are you reading that Revelation warns against "adding to Israel?"

 

[Wills]

WHAT? Where are you reading that Revelation warns against "adding to Israel?"

By adding to Israel you attempt to add and/or modify the words of Revelation prophecy

.. you cannot touch Israel without manipulating prophecy since Israel is interwound with those prophecies warned about.


Of course, in the haste of some to tweak things around, they completely

overlooked that.

Israel is tied to a number of Revelation prophecies in ... as in Revelation 7, 14 etc

Got to be careful.