Hello everyone, here is an article about Jesus not returning, is it true? I hope not.

[armothe]

You are incorrect. You speak as though the humans making up the nations today are not descended from the loins of Jacob.

Okay. I'll forgive your lack of Biblical understanding.

1) Was the nation of Israel directly descended from Jacob. Yes.
2) Were the 12 tribes (nations) of Israel directly descended from Jacob. Yes.
3) Were the kings of Israel directly (genaeology) descended from Jacob. Yes.

Was the United States directly descended from Jacob? NO!
Was Great Britain directly descended from Jacob? NO!
Have you known any of the Kings/Queens or Presidents to have been directly descended from Jacob?

The United States is not a Jewish nation. The majority of the population is not Jewish, nor was it founded by Jews.
Same goes for Britain, India, Italy, China, Iceland, Chile...etc.

Sure, there are Jews living amongst many nations of the existing world, but you would be had pressed to define them as Jewish nations.

As a matter of fact.....by your own statement you would have to assert that all nations currently in existence were descended from Jacob...and that, my friend, is the epitome of misunderstanding God's Word.

Read the passage again:
11 And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of NATIONS shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;

Now scroll back up to points 1 2 & 3 and tell me whether or not God's promise to Jacob was fulfilled?

I'm not even going to dignify the remainder of your post with a response.

-A

 

[Ben_Hur]

Ben_Hur: Ok, you can believe that if you want to. I've been there; I've felt guilty for not being a good evangelist. What's the big deal? Do you really feel THAT guilty that you needed to put all this scripture together to prove your point? Or are there more implications to the story?

Pericles: Wow...this has to be the lowest I've seen someone go to put preterism down...

Sorry Pericles. I had no idea I was putting down an entire theology. Seriously! All I do is just read the Bible. I don't know much about theology, I was just calling it as I saw it. I mean, it sounds like, from what you are saying, that someone set out to find out if Jesus was talking to them when he said "go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things, whatever I commanded you. And, behold, I am with you all the days until the end of the world."

Now, it never even occurred to me that he wasn't talking to me. That is what makes it so bizzar; that such a notion occurred to someone and they developed an entire theology around it. The only explanation for such a thing was that maybe they felt guilty. Guilt is all I can relate to since that is the only thing that has ever come up with regard to those verses for me.

So preterism is there to show that the great commision is complete? Is that all it is for? I thought it had something to do with mid-trib verses pre-trib, or something like that.

 

[Angel4Truth]

Matthew 24:3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"
4And Jesus answered and said to them: "Take heed that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in My name, saying, "I am the Christ,' and will deceive many. 6And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all[1] these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences,[2] and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9"Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake. 10And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.


Seems some of you miss context to force an interpretation unless you believe Christ was telling them they would preach in all the world , your theory of him meaning the disciples not seeing death is a fantasy . clearly the preceeding context shows its a future generation if you read that whole chapter . The verse is saying that the generation that sees all the signs come together will not pass untill all things be fulfilled and one of the things is the resoration of Israel , that happened in 1948 - so the generation that saw that along with the other signs Christ mentioned would not pass away before all be fulfilled , context above shows also that the gospel must first be preached in all the WORLD - we are right at the door of that being a reality NOW .

 

[Pericles]

Seems some of you miss context to force an interpretation unless you believe Christ was telling them they would preach in all the world , your theory of him meaning the disciples not seeing death is a fantasy . clearly the preceeding context shows its a future generation if you read that whole chapter . The verse is saying that the generation that sees all the signs come together will not pass untill all things be fulfilled and one of the things is the resoration of Israel , that happened in 1948 - so the generation that saw that along with the other signs Christ mentioned would not pass away before all be fulfilled , context above shows also that the gospel must first be preached in all the WORLD - we are right at the door of that being a reality NOW .

Actually the word "generation" always refers to Christ's contemporaries every time it is used in the New Testament. Are you suggesting that it means something different in Matthew 24? The verse doesn't say "the generation that sees these signs" will not pass away....it actually says "THIS GENERATION" will not pass away.

You also underlined the fact that as soon as the gospel is preached to all the nations then the end will come. Are you aware the Bible teaches that this happened in the first century?

 

[armothe]

David Chilton
(The Great Tribulation, p. 3)
"Some have sought to get around the force of this text by saying that the word generation here really means race, and that Jesus was simply saying that the Jewish race would not die out until all these things took place. Is that true? I challenge you: Get out your concordance and look up every New Testament occurrence of the word generation (in Greek, genea) and see if it ever means 'race' in any other context. Here are all the references for the Gospels: Matthew 1:17; 11:16; 12:39, 41, 42, 45; 16:4; 17:17; 23:36; 24:34; Mark 8:12, 38; 9:19; 13:30; Luke 1:48, 50; 7:31; 9:41; 11:29, 30, 31, 32, 50, 51; 18:8; 17:25; 21:32. Not one of these references is speaking of the entire Jewish race over thousands of years; all use the word in its normal sense of the sum total of those living at the same time. It always refers to contemporaries. (In fact, those who say it means "race" tend to acknowledge this fact, but explain that the word suddenly changes its meaning when Jesus uses it in Matthew 24! We can smile at such a transparent error, but we should also remember that this is very serious. We are dealing with the Word of the living God.)."

-A

 

[Pericles]

So preterism is there to show that the great commision is complete? Is that all it is for? I thought it had something to do with mid-trib verses pre-trib, or something like that.

No, you are not even close. Please read the entire outline to Preterism...it is evident now that you don't know what it is...you can familiarize yourself with the basics by reading this short outline. Feel free to ask if you have any questions:

http://planetpreterist.com/outline

 

[Ben_Hur]

No, you are not even close. Please read the entire outline to Preterism...it is evident now that you don't know what it is...you can familiarize yourself with the basics by reading this short outline. Feel free to ask if you have any questions:

http://planetpreterist.com/outline

I only skimmed that outline, but I focused a bit on the beast number explanation. It didn't mention the "mark of the beast". Is that discussed elsewhere or does preterism not need to provide a complete explanation of things like this?

Also, is that FULL preterism or partial?

I'll read the outline in more detail later. Got an appointment.

 

[Pericles]

I only skimmed that outline, but I focused a bit on the beast number explanation. It didn't mention the "mark of the beast". Is that discussed elsewhere or does preterism not need to provide a complete explanation of things like this?

I'll read the outline in more detail later. Got an appointment.

The "mark of the beast" is not a physical thing...just as "the seal of God" is not a physical seal in Revelation 7:3. I never heard how a dispensationalist explains the seal of God. Everyone talks about the mark of the beast...and how barcode labels, or credit cards and other things are the mark. What is the seal of God that is applied to God's servants on their foreheads in Rev. 7:3? Maybe the frequent-shopper cards for the Family Bookstores?

The number of the beast, which is 666 could be well attributed to Nero. The outline deals with this issue...towards the end.

 

[Ben_Hur]

The "mark of the beast" is not a physical thing...just as "the seal of God" is not a physical seal in Revelation 7:3. I never heard how a dispensationalist explains the seal of God. Everyone talks about the mark of the beast...and how barcode labels, or credit cards and other things are the mark. What is the seal of God that is applied to God's servants on their foreheads in Rev. 7:3? Maybe the frequent-shopper cards for the Family Bookstores?

The number of the beast, which is 666 could be well attributed to Nero. The outline deals with this issue...towards the end.

I understand where you are coming from, it is just that the language is so specific about the "mark's" location (right hand OR forehead). I mean, what is the spiritual significance of the "right hand" and the "forehead". Certainly preterism has addressed this is someway? After being so thorough in other areas it would be odd for them to just brush it off without an explanation... We are to look at the whole counsel of God, right?

 

[Pericles]

I understand where you are coming from, it is just that the language is so specific about the "mark's" location (right hand OR forehead). I mean, what is the spiritual significance of the "right hand" and the "forehead". Certainly preterism has addressed this is someway? After being so thorough in other areas it would be odd for them to just brush it off without an explanation... We are to look at the whole counsel of God, right?

I appreciate your honest questions by the way.

I believe the "mark" simply indicated "property of..." Believers are sealed or marked with the seal of God, indicating they belong to God, while non-believers belong to "the world" if you will...or specifically were under the command and control of the Roman officials in the first century.

 

[parousia70]

I understand where you are coming from, it is just that the language is so specific about the "mark's" location (right hand OR forehead). I mean, what is the spiritual significance of the "right hand" and the "forehead". Certainly preterism has addressed this is someway? After being so thorough in other areas it would be odd for them to just brush it off without an explanation... We are to look at the whole counsel of God, right?

Indeed we are to look at the WHOLE COINCIL.

This picture, as many others in Revelation, is a metaphorical representation of servitude to the beast, much as the mark on the hand and the forehead in Deut 6:6-8 is representative of servitude to God. I see no difference between the two symbols, aside from obedience.

Deut. 6:6-8
6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart: 7 And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up. 8 And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.

The right hand denotes action, and the forehead denotes thought.

 

[Ben_Hur]

Indeed we are to look at the WHOLE COINCIL.

This picture, as many others in Revelation, is a metaphorical representation of servitude to the beast, much as the mark on the hand and the forehead in Deut 6:6-8 is representative of servitude to God. I see no difference between the two symbols, aside from obedience.

Deut. 6:6-8
6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart: 7 And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up. 8 And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.

The right hand denotes action, and the forehead denotes thought.

VERY interesting verse... I hadn't caught that before

 

[FreeinChrist]

Indeed we are to look at the WHOLE COINCIL.

This picture, as many others in Revelation, is a metaphorical representation of servitude to the beast, much as the mark on the hand and the forehead in Deut 6:6-8 is representative of servitude to God. I see no difference between the two symbols, aside from obedience.

Deut. 6:6-8
6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart: 7 And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up. 8 And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.

The right hand denotes action, and the forehead denotes thought.

WHO decides that the right hand denotes action?
What I read in Revelation is that the Beast causes all to take a mark on their right hand or in their foreheads. The passage in Deuteronomy does not say right or left. Nor does the passage in Deuteronomy tie this to buying or selling. Also, in Deuteronomy, the believer is to bind them to their forehead or hand...in Revelation 13, the followers of the beast "receive" the mark having it required by the beast. There are definite differences.

 

[Wills]

Okay. I'll forgive your lack of Biblical understanding.

1) Was the nation of Israel directly descended from Jacob. Yes.
2) Were the 12 tribes (nations) of Israel directly descended from Jacob. Yes.
3) Were the kings of Israel directly (genaeology) descended from Jacob. Yes.

Was the United States directly descended from Jacob? NO!
Was Great Britain directly descended from Jacob? NO!
Have you known any of the Kings/Queens or Presidents to have been directly descended from Jacob?

The United States is not a Jewish nation. The majority of the population is not Jewish, nor was it founded by Jews.
Same goes for Britain, India, Italy, China, Iceland, Chile...etc.

Sure, there are Jews living amongst many nations of the existing world, but you would be had pressed to define them as Jewish nations.

As a matter of fact.....by your own statement you would have to assert that all nations currently in existence were descended from Jacob...and that, my friend, is the epitome of misunderstanding God's Word.

Read the passage again:
11 And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of NATIONS shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;


-A

Your post is incomplete. Take your time and carefully answer this
question. Please give it enough thought.

I am just curious to know how you determine who is a Jew and who is not.
What exactly proves that a nation is a JEWISH NATION , and upon what criteria do you identify a Jew living today as a descendant of Jacob?

You seemed to have avoided explaining how you came by that term , a "Jewish nation" as defined by today's standards.

 

[FreeinChrist]

The "mark of the beast" is not a physical thing...just as "the seal of God" is not a physical seal in Revelation 7:3. I never heard how a dispensationalist explains the seal of God. Everyone talks about the mark of the beast...and how barcode labels, or credit cards and other things are the mark. What is the seal of God that is applied to God's servants on their foreheads in Rev. 7:3? Maybe the frequent-shopper cards for the Family Bookstores?

One, look at the text. The false prophet, acting for the Beast, causes all to receive a mark in their forehead or on the right hand.
In contrast, the 144,000 are "sealed" in their foreheads. Of the two passages in Revelation, this is the most like Deuteronomy 6. The followers of the beast are not "sealed", they are marked.
When we become born again, we are "sealed" in the Holy Spirit. This means we receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as a guarantee of our inheritance. It is the Holy Spirit who teaches us, enlightenes us, regenerates us....so a an explanation for the sealing of the 144,000 is that they become enlightened in regards to their tribal affliation and about the things of God. They are not marked, though. And nothing is said of buying and selling in regards to the seal of God.

 

[Wills]

You stated without any doubt, that today's inhabitants of India and Britain are for a FACT Israelites. HOW DO YOU KNOW THIS? If it's in the Bible, it should be an easy thing for you to point out...what book and what verse in the Bible teaches this? Furthermore, what historical or anthropological evidence fo you have to show for this statement?

Pericles,

You seem to imply that people LIVING TODAY have used the Bible to prove their ancestry from Jacob's Israel.

Historical or anthropological records as maintained by human beings

are exceedingly insufficient and grossly incapable of proving lineage and

identifying those who are descendants from the tribesmen of Jesus Christ

of Nazareth.

Let me show you how Israelites are PROPERLY and accurately identified

please read--

Luke 1:11 And there appeared unto him an angel of the Lord standing on the right side of the altar of incense.
12 And when Zacharias saw him, he was troubled, and fear fell upon him.
13 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.

No so called historical or anthropological records were needed to identify Zacharias as an Israelite.

Please read this very , very carefully and answer with appropriate depth.

 

[Atkin]

One, look at the text. The false prophet, acting for the Beast, causes all to receive a mark in their forehead or on the right hand.
In contrast, the 144,000 are "sealed" in their foreheads. Of the two passages in Revelation, this is the most like Deuteronomy 6. The followers of the beast are not "sealed", they are marked.
When we become born again, we are "sealed" in the Holy Spirit. This means we receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as a guarantee of our inheritance. It is the Holy Spirit who teaches us, enlightenes us, regenerates us....so a an explanation for the sealing of the 144,000 is that they become enlightened in regards to their tribal affliation and about the things of God. They are not marked, though. And nothing is said of buying and selling in regards to the seal of God.

Buying and selling and the various aspects of Commerce, finance, Investment banking, Stocks and share trading, money lending activities, form a very core section of carnal human life.

When did you ever see Christ expending energy setting up banks etc.

Finance and money affairs are not necessarily 100% evil, but they constitute an area where carnal activity, temptation, corruption, lust and control manifest themselves rampantly.

That is why the seal of God is not associated with buying and selling.

Of course God is well aware that Christians living on earth cannot avoid

working for food to eat.

However, those who literally "kill" for gold and oil end up bloodying their fingers in lust and depravity and corruption.

Do you see gold and oil business as the core of God's focus ... or do you find

God focusing on teaching humans about the importance of attaining

Christlike wisdom?

 

[Atkin]

Get this clear. The name Israel in the Old testament was the name of a human being and later applied to a kingdom.

If your so called manuscript is not aware of this common fact in Genesis, you better seek intellectual guidance regarding God's Word.

No human can list the residence of all Jews at that NT period. The Bible does not list all the physical locations of all the Jews.. not relevant.

The Jews were not restricted to a group of nations... even today they are

still scattered all over the place.


You seem confused. Jesus's return is not a debatable issue.

Jesus's words hold true... unless you are not sure of yourself.

Were there Jews in Europe during the 1st advent?

Is the return of Jesus in the future or past?

 

[FreeinChrist]

Buying and selling and the various aspects of Commerce, finance, Investment banking, Stocks and share trading, money lending activities, form a very core section of carnal human life.

When did you ever see Christ expending energy setting up banks etc.

Finance and money affairs are not necessarily 100% evil, but they constitute an area where carnal activity, temptation, corruption, lust and control manifest themselves rampantly.

That is why the seal of God is not associated with buying and selling.

Of course God is well aware that Christians living on earth cannot avoid

working for food to eat.

However, those who literally "kill" for gold and oil end up bloodying their fingers in lust and depravity and corruption.

Do you see gold and oil business as the core of God's focus ... or do you find

God focusing on teaching humans about the importance of attaining

Christlike wisdom?

That is missing the point, I believe, of the discussion. Paul often exhorts Christians to not be a burden, to carry their weight. He discussed this in II Thes. 3. He himself worked at making tents when at Lydia's and elsewhere. We are to be good stewards, and there are biblical principles to how we are to handle our money. And Jesus was a carpenter until the time came for His ministry. The Old Covenant makes mentions of rules in regards to honesty in 'buying and selling' or trade, and of treatment regarding labor.

The point I was making is that there is a big difference between a mark that must be received (is forced) to buy and sell, and being sealed by God. and of being forced by another, and binding it to ourselves.

 

[Pericles]

The point I was making is that there is a big difference between a mark that must be received (is forced) to buy and sell, and being sealed by God. and of being forced by another, and binding it to ourselves.

I am still confused. Is the mark of the beast an actual visible mark that people will receive and the mark of God is NOT?