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Hello everyone, here is an article about Jesus not returning, is it true? I hope not.

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Wills

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Pericles said:
The author of this article is making some excellent points, points which are mostly IGNORED by today's Christians. [as noted in the responses to the first post, NOBODY so far answered the criticism in the article] On the other hand, Preterism swiftly and biblically deals with these points and shows why Jesus DID keep his word, he was NOT a false prophet, and his prophecies took place exactly when and how he said:

http://planetpreterist.com/outline
The article's criticisms proves nothing against Christ.

Your view does not hold since these and many others have not taken place yet...

ISRAEL-EGYPT-ASSYRIA TOGETHER WORSHIPPING GOD-- when??:rolleyes:

Isaiah 19:21 And the LORD shall be known to Egypt, and the Egyptians shall know the LORD in that day, and shall do sacrifice and oblation; yea, they shall vow a vow unto the LORD, and perform it.
22 And the LORD shall smite Egypt: he shall smite and heal it: and they shall return even to the LORD, and he shall be intreated of them, and shall heal them.
23 In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians.
24 In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land:
25 Whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance.

---------------Ephraim and Judah together, no jealousy
Isaiah 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse[CHRIST], which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people:rolleyes: which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
13 The envy also of Ephraim:rolleyes: shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah :rolleyes: and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.
14 But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them.

******
Revelation 20:12 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.




Literal or non literally, when did ALL the dead rise from the Earth to face judgement? Or is there another explanation for process of resurrection of the dead that differs from how Christ resurrected?

WHEN DID ISRAEL START WORSHIPPING WITH ASSYRIA AND EGYPT??

What describes this period that we live in in regard to your post.. that the period of time since 100AD till now and how does that relate to the

fact that the lake of fire in REVELATION 20 is not consuming billions of souls yet?
 
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Wills

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Pericles said:
The author of this article is making some excellent points, points which are mostly IGNORED by today's Christians. [as noted in the responses to the first post, NOBODY so far answered the criticism in the article] On the other hand, Preterism swiftly and biblically deals with these points and shows why Jesus DID keep his word, he was NOT a false prophet, and his prophecies took place exactly when and how he said:

http://planetpreterist.com/outline
It seems articles like these cause people to try to reassure themselves

by interpreting prophecies in certain ways.

The major point your post misses is that Old AND NEW Testament prophecies

are fulfilled together and another major gap you left out is interpreting what happens AFTER the return of Christ.

WHAT DID CHRIST say would be the state of EARTH AFTER HE FINISHES

JUDGEMENT?

The rule by the Catholic Papacy and Muslims (Ottomans etc) over centuries after 100AD well into our millenium could not have taken place on an Earth that experienced the return of Christ.

WHEN ARE GENTILES JUDGED??... gentiles are not free from judgement...
 
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Pericles

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Wills said:
The article's criticisms proves nothing against Christ.

Your view does not hold since these and many others have not taken place yet...
No kidding!? The author of the article seems to think so! He is not a believer because you and people like you, rather than answering his question, you choose to ignore them. So far I haven't seen one feeble attempt to deal with the arguments raised.

By the way, the vast majority of Jews and Muslims today do not believe in Christ and do not belive he was the son of God because he supposedly failed to come back when He said he was going to come back. Apparently the article proves a lot more than you think...
 
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Pericles

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Wills said:
It seems articles like these cause people to try to reassure themselves by interpreting prophecies in certain ways.
Which ways?


Wills said:
The major point your post misses is that Old AND NEW Testament prophecies are fulfilled together and another major gap you left out is interpreting what happens AFTER the return of Christ.
I don't need to interpret anything...the Bible is very clear...read the book of Revelation.

Wills said:
WHAT DID CHRIST say would be the state of EARTH AFTER HE FINISHES

JUDGEMENT?

The rule by the Catholic Papacy and Muslims (Ottomans etc) over centuries after 100AD well into our millenium could not have taken place on an Earth that experienced the return of Christ.

WHEN ARE GENTILES JUDGED??... gentiles are not free from judgement...
The outline to preterism answers all your questions...you should analyze it again...
 
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Wills

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Pericles said:
No kidding!? The author of the article seems to think so! He is not a believer because you and people like you, rather than answering his question, you choose to ignore them. So far I haven't seen one feeble attempt to deal with the arguments raised.

By the way, the vast majority of Jews and Muslims today do not believe in Christ and do not belive he was the son of God because he supposedly failed to come back when He said he was going to come back. Apparently the article proves a lot more than you think...
I am afraid you are completely wrong regarding the reasons for unbelief
of Jews and Muslims.

The unbelief of Jews and Muslims is NOT BASED on whether they think Christ returned or not.

Reason 1
What Muslims DO NOT BELIEVE is why God, all powerful, would sacrifice
his only begotten Son because they see that as a sign of weakness.:rolleyes:
This is a cultural problem in the Muslim world which believes that A ruler
or a Creator MUST NOT SHOW what they see (wrongly) as weakness.
They DO NOT BELIEVE who he said he was in the context of the period EVEN BEFORE THE TIME of his death (Future Muslims after Christ).

Hence Muslims say Jesus WAS NOT CRUCIFIED but someone else was killed
in his place, which is a lie believed by Muslims.

Reason 2
Muslims also CANNOT ACCEPT THE FACT THAT GOD can manifest himself AS A MAN. very very difficult concept for the Muslim and this is a fact.
They say there is only ONE POWERFUL GOD AND HE IS TOO POWERFUL
TO LIMIT HIMSELF IN THE FORM OF A HUMAN BEING.

Muslims believe in show of strength.. that is Allah is too powerful to allow his Son to be crucified. They have therefore referred to the Gospel of barrabas
to explain their false impression of Judas being crucified and NOT CHRIST


Jews did not wait for His return or non return to disbelieve Christ. Many disbelieved him WHEN HE WAS ALIVE. This disbelief led to negative Jewish writings about Christ which was passed down to later Jews.


The JEWS who did not believe in Christ WERE WRONGLY waiting for A MESSIAH WHO WOULD LEAD THEM IN WARS and set up an earthly kingdom.:rolleyes:

A King WHO WOULD KILL THE ROMANS, KILL THE EGYPTIANS and set up a WORLD KINGDOM with head quarters in Jerusalem AND MANY STILL AWAIT
THIS today.


The disbelieving Jews of the time hence did not believe a Messiah could come and be crucified like a criminal. They denigrated Christ in their beliefs and passed their beliefs to later day jews right till these current time.

Hence, your so called preterist approach DOES NOTHING to explain the truth
of Christ to a disbelieving Jew who wants an earthly kingdom led by some Messiah with CONTROL OVER all THE NATIONS (FINANCIAL ETC) and control over Gentiles, or a Muslim, who has been BRAINWASHED TO THINK ALLAH WILL NEVER ALLOW his Only begotten Son to be crucified.
 
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Pericles

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Wills said:
I am afraid you are completely wrong regarding the reasons for unbelief of Jews and Muslims.
Well this is interesting, because I read theological works from both muslim clerics and jewish rabbins and what I found contradicts your claims...

Hence, your so called preterist approach DOES NOTHING to explain the truth of Christ to a disbelieving Jew who wants an earthly kingdom led by some Messiah with CONTROL OVER all THE NATIONS (FINANCIAL ETC) and control over Gentiles, or a Muslim, who has been BRAINWASHED TO THINK ALLAH WILL NEVER ALLOW his Only begotten Son to be crucified.
But your continual support of Israel regardless of their actions in the middle east really preaches Christ to them right? :) I am sure that the Palestinian Christians killed daily by God's chosen Jewish soldier really appreciate your position...

I find it ironic that yet again you ignored the main post of this thread and managed to correct me, rather than deal with the issue. According to the article that started this thread, the atheists and agnostics at 2Think.org reject Christ because he failed his promises, and he did not return when he said he was going to return! Are you calling them liars too?
 
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armothe

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Wills said:
WHAT DID CHRIST say would be the state of EARTH AFTER HE FINISHES JUDGEMENT?
I don't think Christ says anything regarding this, rather John outlines it quite well in Revelation 21 & 22:

21:2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven of God
Heaven is a spiritual place, thus; so is the New Jerusalem.
21:3 Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he shall dwell with them
God/Christ resides with us today.
Mr 14:58 We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and in three days I will build another made without hands
21:4 and he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes
Does not God comfort us?
21:4 and death shall be no more;
If you are truly one of "His people" you are spared from spiritual death
21:8 But for the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars
Outside the New Kingdom reside the unclean
21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb
The New Kingdom is based upon the Gospel which was planted by the 12.
21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God the Almighty, and the Lamb, are the temple thereof
The "temple" is now within us - as Christians
21:23 And the city hath no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine upon it
Because it is not a physical place
21:25 And the gates thereof shall in no wise be shut by day
The gates to Christianity/Salvation are always open
21:27 and there shall in no wise enter into it anything unclean
Only the Blood of Christ will make you clean from sin
22:5 and they shall reign for ever and ever.
An everlasting and perfect kingdom. Amen!
22:14 Blessed are they that wash their robes, that they may have the right to come to the tree of life, and my enter in by the gates into the city
Repent (robes), accept Christ's sacrifice (tree of life), and enter into a relationship with God (city).

Sounds a lot like Christianity (which exists today) to me.

-A
 
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Pericles

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Wills said:
I am afraid you are completely wrong regarding the reasons for unbelief of Jews and Muslims.
I found a little time to research some documents that directly contradict your claims. This is straight from jewsforjudaism.org:

Question: According to the New Testament, after how long an interval did Jesus promise to return to earth?
Answer: Jesus' alleged remarks about the parousia, that is, his promised second "presence," "arrival," present a problem for Christianity. Some of his statements anticipate a quick return (Matthew 10:23; Mark 9:1; John 14:3, 21:22-23), other comments are less sure and suppose an indeterminate interval before the return (Matthew 12:31-33, 24:50, 25:13; Mark 13:35-37; Acts 1:7); and in one instance Jesus is reported to have said he does not know when he will return (Mark 13:32).

Jesus made none of these comments. These various statements reveal that the myth of the "second coming" was explained in different ways as the interval following Jesus' death lengthened.

Question: How can we be sure that Jesus' promises to return are false prophecy?

Answer: Jesus, it is claimed, prophesied that certain unspecified individuals would not die until they would see either "the Son of Man coming in his kingdom" (Matthew 16:28), or "see the kingdom of God after it has come with power" (Mark 9:1), or see the "kingdom of God" (Luke 9:27).

Jesus, addressing his disciples "privately" (Mark 13:3, Matthew 24:3) listed what was going to happen before his return. He then added, "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted and shall kill you and you shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake" (Matthew 24:9). Concerning this Mark's version adds, "he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved" (Mark 13:13). Thus, it appears from this last remark that at least some of the disciples would survive and be present to witness the second coming and the end time.

The Synoptic Gospels while in basic agreement on the wording of the first part of their respective verses differ on the wording of the second part. Mark 9:1 is the most informative. It reads in the full literal verse: "Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death at all until they see the kingdom of God having come [that is, after it has come] with power." Apparently, the early Christian community was convinced of the imminent return of Jesus, as the Messiah, and the inauguration of the kingdom of God. It never happened.

Matthew's Jesus makes an explicit statement as to his expectation of returning within the lifetime of many of his contemporaries. He declares, "But when they persecute you in this city, flee into the next: for truly I say to you, you shall not have gone through the cities of Israel, until [heos, that is, "up to the time"] the Son of Man comes" (Matthew 10:23). From this verse we see that Matthew's Jesus promised to return before the apostles visited all the cities of Israel. Jesus commissions the twelve apostles to be missionaries to the Jewish people. The author of Matthew comments, "These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying 'Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans do not enter. But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as you go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand'" (Matthew 10:5-7). Here Jesus commands the twelve apostles to proclaim it exclusively to the Jewish people. Jesus then tells the apostles that "the Son of Man" is scheduled to arrive before they accomplish the visitation of all "the cities of Israel." This is the third time the immediacy declaration "the kingdom of heaven is at hand" is used in the Gospel of Matthew. The first time was by John the Baptist (Matthew 3:2). Then, Jesus used it as his opening proclamation (Matthew 4:17). The imminent coming of the Son of Man to usher in the kingdom of heaven is expressed as being "at hand." "Is at hand," is one word, engiken. It has the meaning of "near," in relation to either place or time.

The forthcoming return of Jesus, the Son of Man, is to come rapidly as promised. This never occurred. Moreover, fulfillment of Matthew 10:23 would have had to occur, at the latest, by the time the last of the original band of apostles died. That event has long since past. Indeed, all of Jesus' contemporaries are dead (Mark 9:1) and his promise remains unfulfilled.

Jesus is simply never returning.


Question: Why do Christians claim there will be a second coming of Jesus?



Answer: Even according to the New Testament, Jesus did not fulfill many crucial messianic prophecies during his lifetime. He was neither the singular ruler promised nor did he exercise any regal authority. God promises concerning the Messiah, "And David My servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd . . . and My servant David shall be their prince forever" (Ezekiel 37:24-25).

Jesus also did not fulfill the prophecies which speak of the benefits the people of Israel were to enjoy under the Messiah's rule and leadership (e.g., Ezekiel 34:25- 31, 37:21-28; Isaiah 11; Jeremiah 23:6, 30:10-11).

The prophecies concerning the Messiah and the benefits of his rule over Israel form an integral unit which one cannot fragment in order to proclaim limited fulfillment of prophecy during Jesus' lifetime and to rationalize that the remaining fragments will be fulfilled during a second appearance. There was a total lack of fulfillment by Jesus of these prophecies.

Christians wait in vain for an expected fulfillment of messianic prophecies during a second coming by Jesus. Their count is off. This would have to refer to a third coming. The first coming covers the period prior to Jesus' death and the second coming spans the period from his alleged resurrection to his alleged ascension.

Christian expressions of faith in the eventual fulfillment of the promise to return cannot be allowed to distort the facts. The New Testament's imminent expectation that Jesus would soon return and establish the kingdom of God was left unfulfilled. There was no visible signs of universal peace and prosperity, the destruction of Israel's enemies, a reuniting of the scattered exiles of Israel, and a reign of righteousness over the earth (e.g., Isaiah 2:23-24, Isaiah 11, Micah 4:1- 3).

Jews still hold to this biblical conception of redemption. It is the absence of such characteristics that trouble Jews, then and now, concerning the Christian claim that Jesus was "the Christ."


Question: How does the passage of time effect the Christian claim of a "second coming of Christ"?




Answer: Time makes the Christian doctrine of a "second coming of Christ" lose all credibility. If Jesus promised to come back shortly and the disciples expected so strongly to see Jesus return and establish the kingdom of God and neither event occurred, for what can the church still hope? In essence, Christian theological speculations on the "second coming of Christ" represent nothing more than the systematization of a mistake.

No amount of Christian theological acrobatics will ever solve the problems engendered by the historical reality that a promised imminent fulfillment made two thousand years ago did not occur as expected by the New Testament. Simply stated, Jesus is never coming back, not then, not now, not ever.


more at: http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/faq-sc.html


As you can see, you are indeed WRONG. Many Jews reject Christ because of the apparent failure of His prophecies to come true. Unlike Futurism, Preterism reinforces the truth of the New Testament, and the fact that Jesus was NOT a false prophet.
 
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Wills

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Pericles said:
I found a little time to research some documents that directly contradict your claims. This is straight from jewsforjudaism.org:


Jesus also did not fulfill the prophecies which speak of the benefits the people of Israel were to enjoy under the Messiah's rule and leadership (e.g., Ezekiel 34:25- 31, 37:21-28; Isaiah 11; Jeremiah 23:6, 30:10-11).

The prophecies concerning the Messiah and the benefits of his rule over Israel form an integral unit which one cannot fragment in order to proclaim limited fulfillment of prophecy during Jesus' lifetime and to rationalize that the remaining fragments will be fulfilled during a second appearance. There was a total lack of fulfillment by Jesus of these prophecies.

.
Your post actually confirms EXACTLY what I said about the Jews.
THEY HAD THEIR OWN IDEAS about A WORLD RULER as I said

In their own words above.. I quote
Pericles said:
There was no visible signs of universal peace and prosperity, the destruction :rolleyes: of Israel's enemies, a reuniting of the scattered exiles of Israel, and a reign of righteousness over the earth (e.g., Isaiah 2:23-24, Isaiah 11, Micah 4:1- 3).
http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/
.
Exactly as I said
Wills said:
The JEWS who did not believe in Christ WERE WRONGLY waiting for A MESSIAH WHO WOULD LEAD THEM IN WARS and set up an earthly kingdom.:rolleyes:
A King WHO WOULD KILL THE ROMANS, KILL THE EGYPTIANS and set up a WORLD KINGDOM with head quarters in Jerusalem AND MANY STILL AWAIT
THIS today.


The disbelieving Jews of the time hence did not believe a Messiah could come and be crucified like a common man.
.
Read their statement again.
 
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ikester

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ll timothy ch.2 v. 17-18....and their word will eat as doth a canker..of whom is hymenaeus and philetus..who concerning the truth have erred..saying that the resurrection is past already..and overthrow the faith of some......wonder if them two dudes may have helped in creating...www.planet perterist.......
 
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Pericles

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darkmast03 said:
Ya, another person who thinks they're smarter than the Bible. You can't read the Bible and not see that Jesus is returning.
I can read the Bible allright...and in it Jesus said to the disciples "Some of you who are standing here will not taste death until you see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom". Jesus also said "You will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes". Go figure...
 
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Pericles

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jayswife29 said:
Could you please post the verses for what you just wrote? I would appreciate it.
Would be happy to:

"But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes" - Matthew 10:23

"For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds. Truly, I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom" - Matthew 16:27,28

"Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place" - Matthew 24:34

"You [the High Priest] will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven" - Matthew 26:64
 
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jayswife29

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I have always understood the verse in Matthew(24:34) to be one of two things; either Jesus was talking about the jews not passing until these things take place, or Jesus saying the generation to witness these things take place will not pass away. Thanks for giving a different perspective.
 
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Pericles

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jayswife29 said:
I have always understood the verse in Matthew(24:34) to be one of two things; either Jesus was talking about the jews not passing until these things take place, or Jesus saying the generation to witness these things take place will not pass away. Thanks for giving a different perspective.
The context is key to understanding any Bible passage correctly. Who was Jesus speaking to? What was the topic of the conversation? What time-frame did He have in mind when he communicated to His disciples?
 
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ikester

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Pericles said:
Would be happy to:

"But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes" - Matthew 10:23

"For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds. Truly, I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom" - Matthew 16:27,28

"Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place" - Matthew 24:34

"You [the High Priest] will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven" - Matthew 26:64

what happens after matthew ch.16 v. 27-28....peter james john and his brother witness the transfiuration....
 
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Pericles

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ikester said:
what happens after matthew ch.16 v. 27-28....peter james john and his brother witness the transfiuration....
So Jesus was talking about the transfiguration? At transfiguration, did he come with "the Angels of his father and repayed every man according to his deeds?" Was His Kingdom instituted at the transfiguration?
 
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Josh1

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"For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds. Truly, I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom" - Matthew 16:27,28

I want to point out that this is talking about the transfiguration. Because Jesus says "they". The only person alive in ad 70 was John. Not the "they" that Jesus mentioned. In the next chapter they witness a picture of His coming and that was what Jesus was talking about. "They" perfectly fits peter,James and John. But it don't just fit John. God Bless.
 
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ikester

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Pericles said:
So Jesus was talking about the transfiguration? At transfiguration, did he come with "the Angels of his father and repayed every man according to his deeds?" Was His Kingdom instituted at the transfiguration?

verse 27 -28 are speaking of two different distinctions... if christ returned in 70ad...did he reward EVERY man according to his works...did the whole world see him coming with power and great glory..did every knee bow..did every mouth confess....and if this was witnessed by many...wouldn't you think...record upon record would testify....wouldn't you think the greatest revival ever would have happened...
 
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