Hell

[As Hell Falls]

That is certainly your prerogative.

The souls of the tribulation saints are seen in Revelation by John. The souls remembered their earthly experiences, were given clothes and told to wait a little longer. These were not resurrected bodies, soul sleep/soul destruction is in no way aligned with what Scripture plainly teaches.

 

[sdowney717]

8 If I ascend into heaven, You are there;
If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there.

Clearly in the OT, the righteous dead Had God with them in Hell.
I prefer to not just say scripture is pure poetry, it actually teaches truth, otherwise its just useless words.
And all the OT saints ascended into heaven with Christ when He ascended in Acts 1, they were in the cloud that received Him out of their sight. We are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses even today.

When Christ returns coming on the clouds of heaven it is Him returning with His saints.


Psalm 139 New King James Version (NKJV)
God’s Perfect Knowledge of Man
For the Chief Musician. A Psalm of David.
1 O Lord, You have searched me and known me.
2 You know my sitting down and my rising up;
You understand my thought afar off.
3 You comprehend my path and my lying down,
And are acquainted with all my ways.
4 For there is not a word on my tongue,
But behold, O Lord, You know it altogether.
5 You have hedged me behind and before,
And laid Your hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me;
It is high, I cannot attain it.

7 Where can I go from Your Spirit?
Or where can I flee from Your presence?
8 If I ascend into heaven, You are there;
If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there.
9 If I take the wings of the morning,
And dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea,
10 Even there Your hand shall lead me,
And Your right hand shall hold me.
11 If I say, “Surely the darkness shall fall on me,”
Even the night shall be light about me;
12 Indeed, the darkness shall not hide from You,
But the night shines as the day;
The darkness and the light are both alike to You.

 

[As Hell Falls]

Revelation 6:9-11

 

[As Hell Falls]

D.A. Wright, remember that Scripture is inerrant, if there is a perceived discrepancy then it must be addressed through the lens of Scripture until there is no conflict. This is the best way to ensure that our perceived reading is accurate to what God says. We follow God's Word, not man's doctrine, brother

 

[sdowney717]

The souls of the tribulation saints are seen in Revelation by John. The souls remembered their earthly experiences, were given clothes and told to wait a little longer. These were not resurrected bodies, soul sleep/soul destruction is in no way aligned with what Scripture plainly teaches.

Yes, definitely not asleep. Not unconscious. If people believe that, then they also believe no one is suffering in hell, so then why have hell at all.

 

[sdowney717]

Revelation 20:13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.

So clearly Hell has occupants before the final judgement.

 

[Aussie Pete]

I glanced at the etymology of the term 'hell,' and noticed that it originally means 'to hide or cover.' Well, that's interesting since Sheol/Hades in Scripture means the same thing. It is in my understanding in the past that 'hell' in the King James Version conveyed the same meaning as 'Sheol,' so why do we equate it with 'Gehenna' that will arrive at the last day? How did we confuse the two things?

Hell is the abode of the dead in Old English, not the final destination of the wicked.

What are your thoughts on this?

You are correct. The "fires of hell" concept comes from Dante's "Inferno', subtitled "A Divine Comedy". My understanding is that the final destination of the wicked is the Lake of Fire. Some scholars and commentators think that the "hellfire" teaching was a means to control churchgoers, who at that time were not able to read the Bible for themselves. It has also been a common evangelistic tool to scare people into salvation. Once a concept has been established for a while it is hard to root out.

 

[Not David]

You are correct. The "fires of hell" concept comes from Dante's "Inferno', subtitled "A Divine Comedy". My understanding is that the final destination of the wicked is the Lake of Fire. Some scholars and commentators think that the "hellfire" teaching was a means to control churchgoers, who at that time were not able to read the Bible for themselves. It has also been a common evangelistic tool to scare people into salvation. Once a concept has been established for a while it is hard to root out.

I really dislike the "religion was created to control masses" fantasy. I am sure all who suffered because of their faith wanted to have control.

 

[D.A. Wright]

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
(Genesis 2:7)

All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;
(Job 27:3)

For as the body without the spirit is dead...
(James 2:26)

Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return to God who gave it.
(Ecclesiastes 12:7)

Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sins, it shall die.
(Ezekiel 18:4)

The Bible uses the term "soul" 1600 times, never once described as immortal.

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, to the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, to the resurrection of damnation.
(John 5:28-29)

Men and brothers, let me freely speak to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulcher is with us to this day.
(Acts 2:29)

For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he said himself, The Lord said to my Lord, Sit you on my right hand, Until I make your foes your footstool.
(Acts 2:34-35)

Death is called a sleep 66 times in the Bible.

These things said he: and after that he said to them, Our friend Lazarus sleeps; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. However, Jesus spoke of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. Then said Jesus to them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
(John 11:11-14)

Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
(John 11:25)

And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
(John 11:43)

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
(Ecclesiastes 9:5)

His breath goes forth, he returns to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
(Psalm 146:4)

The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
(Psalm 115:17)

What about the thief on the cross?

And Jesus said to him, Truly I say to you, To day shall you be with me in paradise.
(Luke 23:43)

There was no punctuation in the Koine Greek language.

Was Jesus in Paradise to receive the thief on that day?

Jesus said to her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father.
(John 20:17)

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
(1 Thessalonians 4:16)

And I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from now on: Yes, said the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors; and their works do follow them.
(Revelation 14:13)

If this is "man's doctrine," then I'm going with it.

Putting a label on it ("soul sleep") and calling it "unscriptural" is meaningless.

Hell is for the disposal of sin and unrepentant sinners. Not for endless torment.

God is love, not sadism.

 

[Aussie Pete]

I really dislike the "religion was created to control masses" fantasy. I am sure all who suffered because of their faith wanted to have control.

I dislike the idea that Christianity is a religion. Controlling others is not a Christian virtue. Perhaps we have a different idea of what is meant by control. I endured 3 years under a controlling pastor. I left when the Lord warned me that the fellowship was about to implode. I warned the Pastor, who was non-committal. I decided, reluctantly, to pull out. There was an implosion and many people were deeply hurt.

Some people view the pastor as near infallible and place all their trust and confidence in him. Or in this day, him or her. I exhort my Bible school students to study the Word for themselves. I cannot live their Christian lives for them.

 

[Tom 1]

Old English,

Nb. the KJV isn't written in Old English. It's early modern English, developing out of Middle English. Old English is Anglo-Saxon, e.g. Beowulf was written in Old English.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[GodLovesCats]

I dislike the idea that Christianity is a religion. Controlling others is not a Christian virtue. Perhaps we have a different idea of what is meant by control.

Controlling other people to save them may not be the nicest way to do it, but I can't imagine saving other people without telling them the Word.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[AlexDTX]

I glanced at the etymology of the term 'hell,' and noticed that it originally means 'to hide or cover.' Well, that's interesting since Sheol/Hades in Scripture means the same thing. It is in my understanding in the past that 'hell' in the King James Version conveyed the same meaning as 'Sheol,' so why do we equate it with 'Gehenna' that will arrive at the last day? How did we confuse the two things?

Hell is the abode of the dead in Old English, not the final destination of the wicked.

What are your thoughts on this?

I agree with you. Confusion comes because the Greek words, Hades and Gehenna are often both translated as "Hell".

What is the point of the White Throne Judgment if people are already in a state of torment in Hell? If we, as mortal people, do not punish someone before a trial and proof of guilt is established, how much more our righteous, divine Lord? Hell is jail, until the White Throne Judgment, then consequences of guilt are applied in the Lake of Fire, of which the valley of hinnom, gehenna, is a picture.