LDS Hell

[Jane_Doe]

The same reason your god thinks non-LDS should pay for their own sins because they rejected Joseph Smith and Mormonism.

Uh... this statement makes no sense with actual LDS beliefs.

 

[KevinSim]

The same reason your god thinks non-LDS should pay for their own sins because they rejected Joseph Smith and Mormonism.

"My God" doesn't cause the souls to cease to exist because "my God" doesn't have the capability of causing them to cease to exist. Are you saying that he that traditional Christians call God also doesn't have the capability of causing the unsaved to cease to exist?

 

[Peter1000]

Phoebe Ann said:

BIBLE Luke 20
34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:

35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:

This scripture says that if anyone wants to be worthy of the next world and the resurrection of the dead, they must not marry, nor be given in marriage?

So does that mean that 100% of the married Christian people are not going to be worthy of the next world or the resurrection of the dead, because they have married and are given in marriage?

It does differentiate between, 1) the children of this world and 2) those that want to be worthy of the next world and the resurrection of the dead, who are the adopted children of God.

The differentiation is troublesome. It says that 1)the children of this world marry and are given in marriage. But 2) those that want to be worthy of the next world and the resurrection of the dead, who are the adopted children of God, do not marry, nor are they given in marriage.

Are you sure this is the direction you want to go with this scripture? Do you really believe that Jesus was telling us who want to be saved and have the resurrection of the dead, are not to marry or be given in marriage. I don't think so. But let me know how you feel, you are the one that quoted it.

 

[Rescued One]

I guess you're not understanding what Jesus said about the resurrection. NOTE: There is no reason to multiply and replenish the earth there.

Matthew 22
28 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

Luke 20
34 Jesus said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage,
(Key words are "this age." Resurrection is another age.)

 

[Rescued One]

"My God" doesn't cause the souls to cease to exist because "my God" doesn't have the capability of causing them to cease to exist. Are you saying that he that traditional Christians call God also doesn't have the capability of causing the unsaved to cease to exist?

The Mormon god is the same species as man. I guess that explains his inability. But our God is Sovereign and has the right to punish sin.

 

[Peter1000]

I guess you're not understanding what Jesus said about the resurrection. NOTE: There is no reason to multiply and replenish the earth there.

Matthew 22
28 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

Luke 20
34 Jesus said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage,
(Key words are "this age." Resurrection is another age.)

The whole question is a mute point. There are too many bible scriptures that relate to the eternality of marriage, let alone many more Mormon scriptures that confirm the bible. We live by the whole Word of God.

 

[Rescued One]

The whole question is a mute point. There are too many bible scriptures that relate to the eternality of marriage, let alone many more Mormon scriptures that confirm the bible. We live by the whole Word of God.

God's truth is never a mute point. There is no marriage in heaven. We don't argue with Jesus.

God created Eve so that Adam wouldn't be lonely and so the earth could be populated.

 

[Peter1000]

God's truth is never a mute point. There is no marriage in heaven. We don't argue with Jesus.

God created Eve so that Adam wouldn't be lonely and so the earth could be populated.

In Genesis the Lord made the woman and gave her to the man Adam. Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

The Genesis idea of one flesh is not qualified. IOW it does not say, and they shall be one flesh until this world/age is over and then in the resurrection you will be two fleshes, never to be one flesh again.

2500 years later this same Lord God of creation, now in the flesh and the name of Jesus, confirmed what he had said to Adam, when he spoke to the Pharisees:
See Mark 10:7-9

7 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;
8 And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.
9 What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

Doesn't sound temprary? Again, no qualification about when they would be separated into 2 flesh or that what God hath joined will be split asunder?

What therefore God hath joined together is one flesh and since God's way is eternal, there is every reason to believe that if God joins a man and a woman, they will be one flesh forever. The Bible scriptures support my position and so does other LDS scriptures.

It also supports your right to be a single person for the eternities, but I would not go down that path, your experience will be much richer with a loving husband, and a loving Lord.

 

[Peter1000]

God's truth is never a mute point. There is no marriage in heaven. We don't argue with Jesus.

God created Eve so that Adam wouldn't be lonely and so the earth could be populated.

How did God know that Adam would be lonely?

How did God know that it was not good for man to be alone?

You think that loneliness goes away after the resurrection?

 

[Rescued One]

In Genesis the Lord made the woman and gave her to the man Adam. Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

The Genesis idea of one flesh is not qualified. IOW it does not say, and they shall be one flesh until this world/age is over and then in the resurrection you will be two fleshes, never to be one flesh again.

2500 years later this same Lord God of creation, now in the flesh and the name of Jesus, confirmed what he had said to Adam, when he spoke to the Pharisees:
See Mark 10:7-9

7 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;
8 And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.
9 What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

Doesn't sound temprary? Again, no qualification about when they would be separated into 2 flesh or that what God hath joined will be split asunder?

What therefore God hath joined together is one flesh and since God's way is eternal, there is every reason to believe that if God joins a man and a woman, they will be one flesh forever. The Bible scriptures support my position and so does other LDS scriptures.

It also supports your right to be a single person for the eternities, but I would not go down that path, your experience will be much richer with a loving husband, and a loving Lord.

Apparently you want some to remain married and others to become single.

The Bible refutes your position. God doesn't condone divorce, or going from one spouse to another every few years. But even Mormons grant temple divorces. Marriage is for this life. God causes childbearing to end in this life.

Luke 20
34 Jesus said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage,
(Key words are "this age." Resurrection is another age.)

Single people aren't all lonely. Adam would have been lonely because he was the only human.

It's impossible to be lonely in heaven. Heaven is filled with the children of God. But it would be impossible to be lonely if there was only one person with God. God is revered so much more than LDS can imagine! He isn't the same species as His created beings!

 

[Jane_Doe]

Marriage is for this life.

Phoebe, are you willing to look your husband in the face and say "you are a disposal temporary thing"?

Adam would have been lonely because he was the only human.

The Bible totally disagrees with you.

He isn't the same species as His created beings!

Got any Biblical support for this statement?

 

[KevinSim]

But it would be impossible to be lonely if there was only one person with God.

And yet, Adam was in the presence of God before God created Eve. Traditional Christian scholars seem to have said that Adam died spiritually when he partook of the forbidden fruit because he went out of the presence of God. Is there any reason to believe that we humans will be any more in the presence of God in the afterlife than Adam was in the presence of God before God created Eve? And yet, even with Adam being in the presence of God, God declared that it wasn't good for the man to be alone, and so God created Eve.

 

[KevinSim]

The Mormon god is the same species as man. I guess that explains his inability. But our God is Sovereign and has the right to punish sin.

Saying that God is Sovereign simply means that God can do whatever He wants to do. And what that means is that there's no way to be sure that he that you think is God really is God; he might very possibly be an evil impostor who has deceived you into thinking that he is God.

I agree with you one hundred percent that God has the right to punish sin. But what good does it do to give someone a punishment that will never end? If the idea of God giving someone a punishment that will never end isn't a red flag (indicating that the author of that idea might just be the mentioned evil impostor), then what is? If one can't be sure that a good God would annihilate someone (cause that someone to cease to exist) if He could, rather than let that someone suffer extreme agony for the rest of eternity, then what can one be sure that a good God would do?

 

[Rescued One]

And yet, Adam was in the presence of God before God created Eve. Traditional Christian scholars seem to have said that Adam died spiritually when he partook of the forbidden fruit because he went out of the presence of God. Is there any reason to believe that we humans will be any more in the presence of God in the afterlife than Adam was in the presence of God before God created Eve? And yet, even with Adam being in the presence of God, God declared that it wasn't good for the man to be alone, and so God created Eve.

God knew that a Savior would be needed to restore the relationship with Him. He knew that Adam would eat the fruit and if Eve wasn't there, Adam would be lonely and not have any children. Because God is omniscient.

Day Six, Genesis 1
24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. 25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Do you believe that God created male and female creatures?

Do you believe that God knew the future?

1 Peter 1
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Revelation 13
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him[the beast], whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

[Rescued One]

Saying that God is Sovereign simply means that God can do whatever He wants to do. And what that means is that there's no way to be sure that he that you think is God really is God; he might very possibly be an evil impostor who has deceived you into thinking that he is God.

If you actually remembered the New Testament, you would know that God's word says otherwise.

I agree with you one hundred percent that God has the right to punish sin. But what good does it do to give someone a punishment that will never end?

Would you tell God what type of punishment the criminal should have?

You tell me. Does outer darkness end? Does your telestial kingdom end? Does your terrestrial kingdom end? Do the lower levels of the celestial kingdom end?

When a just God punishes, does the punishment fit the crime? Is it a sin to reject Christ? Is it just a minor sin that doesn't require much punishment? Does a temporary punishment change a person's character?

If the idea of God giving someone a punishment that will never end isn't a red flag (indicating that the author of that idea might just be the mentioned evil impostor), then what is?

Outer darkness? Being in a kingdom away from God forever and ever?

If one can't be sure that a good God would annihilate someone (cause that someone to cease to exist) if He could, rather than let that someone suffer extreme agony for the rest of eternity, then what can one be sure that a good God would do?

OOPS! By your definition, your god isn't good.

 

[KevinSim]

God knew that a Savior would be needed to restore the relationship with Him. He knew that Adam would eat the fruit and if Eve wasn't there, Adam would be lonely and not have any children. Because God is omniscient.

Phoebe Ann, why was Adam more likely to be lonely in the Garden of Eden than he will be in the afterlife?

Do you believe that God created male and female creatures?

It's possible that God came down to Earth and personally created male and female creatures. It's also possible that God set things in motion, knowing that the unavoidable result of those things would be the creation of male and female creatures. I'm kind of leaning toward the latter, but I haven't given up completely on the former.

Do you believe that God knew the future?

I believe that God knows the future in general. God knows many things that will certainly come about. I don't believe that God knows every little detail about what will happen in the future. But you will find plenty of Latter-day Saints who do believe that God does know every little detail. My own brother (who lives up in Roy, Utah), I think, believes God knows every single detail about the future. According to the Encyclopedia of Mormonism either view is compatible with the message of the Gospel.

 

[Rescued One]

Phoebe Ann, why was Adam more likely to be lonely in the Garden of Eden than he will be in the afterlife?

I answered that.

It's possible that God came down to Earth and personally created male and female creatures.

God is omnipresent.

It's also possible that God set things in motion, knowing that the unavoidable result of those things would be the creation of male and female creatures. I'm kind of leaning toward the latter, but I haven't given up completely on the former.

I don't know what you are talking about.

I believe that God knows the future in general. God knows many things that will certainly come about. I don't believe that God knows every little detail about what will happen in the future.

So you're saying that your god isn't omniscient and you've said that your god isn't omnipotent (he can't cause matter to stop existing; he can't annihilate sinners; he can't harden someone's heart; he can't soften someone's heart unless the person gives him permission).

But you will find plenty of Latter-day Saints who do believe that God does know every little detail. My own brother (who lives up in Roy, Utah), I think, believes God knows every single detail about the future. According to the Encyclopedia of Mormonism either view is compatible with the message of the Gospel.

That is a point on which Orthodox, Catholics and Protestants disagree with Mormons.

 

[KevinSim]

If you actually remembered the New Testament, you would know that God's word says otherwise.

Phoebe Ann, how do you know that the New Testament is God's word? I'm not saying that it's not; I'm just curious how you know it is.

Would you tell God what type of punishment the criminal should have?

First off, I wouldn't tell God anything. But I have a very hard time understanding why I should conclude some being is God, if that being tortures, forever, his enemies when he could cause them to cease to exist instead.

You tell me. Does outer darkness end?

Outer darkness does not end. But that's not because God doesn't want it to end. God, as I understand Him, does not have the power to cause souls to cease to exist. God would cause the souls in outer darkness to cease to exist if He could, but He can't, so He doesn't. The same can't be said for the deity that traditional Christians worship. That deity does have the power to cause souls to cease to exist, and yet that deity chooses not to put the unsaved out of their misery.

Does your telestial kingdom end? Does your terrestrial kingdom end? Do the lower levels of the celestial kingdom end?

There is no agony in any of those places. They are all places of happiness, albeit less happiness than there is in the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom.

When a just God punishes, does the punishment fit the crime? Is it a sin to reject Christ? Is it just a minor sin that doesn't require much punishment? Does a temporary punishment change a person's character?

Does spending forever in extreme agony change a person's character? I have no problem with the idea of any amount of finite punishment. I just really, really have a major problem with the idea of infinite punishment. And I say that if, by some bizarre form of reasoning, it should turn out that justice requires that a single soul of the unsaved suffer extreme agony forever, then what is the purpose of that soul existing at all? What good would it do anyone for that soul to exist any longer? What is there to be gained by letting her/him live that wouldn't be improved by causing her/him to cease to exist?

OOPS! By your definition, your god isn't good.

Phoebe Ann, you haven't looked very closely at my definition of a good God. Whenever I have talked about why I believe a good God would annihilate a soul, I have always added the conditional that God be able to annihilate a soul. If God cannot annihilate a soul, then obviously God has no obligation to annihilate anybody. God, as I understand Him, cannot annihilate. The deity you worship can annihilate, and yet he doesn't. Is there a better way to know that an alleged deity is in fact evil than to observe that he can annihilate and yet doesn't?

 

[KevinSim]

I answered that.

Can you point me to where you answered that? I took a look at things you've said in the past, and a quick search didn't turn anything up. Why is it that Adam is less likely to be lonely in the afterlife than he was in the Garden of Eden before God created Eve?

I don't know what you are talking about.

I believe that God created the universe. I am right now considering the possibility that when God created the universe He did it in such a way that the world as we know it would inevitably come into existence. If analogies help, God started the ball rolling, and knew when He started it rolling that it would knock down the bowling pins. So did God knock over the bowling pins? Not directly, but certainly indirectly. He didn't reach out His hand and push the bowling pins over. But by starting the ball rolling in just the right way, He knew that they would eventually hit the pins and knock them down. Does that help you understand what I was saying?

So you're saying that your god isn't omniscient and you've said that your god isn't omnipotent (he can't cause matter to stop existing; he can't annihilate sinners; he can't harden someone's heart; he can't soften someone's heart unless the person gives him permission).

I have no idea whether God can stop matter from existing or not; all I believe is that God cannot stop intelligence from existing. God does have the power to harden someone's heart or to soften someone's heart; that's what the LDS War in Heaven was fought over; but God's choice was to not force people to do what was right; so while God has the power, I really doubt He will ever use it.

That is a point on which Orthodox, Catholics and Protestants disagree with Mormons.

Didn't realize there were so many people who disagreed with me! But that's okay; I have taken my stand, and I'm going to stick with it.

 

[Rescued One]

Phoebe Ann, how do you know that the New Testament is God's word? I'm not saying that it's not; I'm just curious how you know it is.

First off, I wouldn't tell God anything. But I have a very hard time understanding why I should conclude some being is God, if that being tortures, forever, his enemies when he could cause them to cease to exist instead.

You have the audacity to judge God! Your god's punishment is forever.

Outer darkness does not end. But that's not because God doesn't want it to end.

So your god is powerless to do what he wants. Why do you pray to him?

Outer darkness does not end. But that's not because God doesn't want it to end.
God, as I understand Him, does not have the power to cause souls to cease to exist. God would cause the souls in outer darkness to cease to exist if He could, but He can't, so He doesn't.

That's not in your scripture. Therefore, it's wishful thinking or mere speculation.

The same can't be said for the deity that traditional Christians worship. That deity does have the power to cause souls to cease to exist, and yet that deity chooses not to put the unsaved out of their misery.

Is God just? Does the punishment fit the crime? How do you know? Does Satan's punishment fit his crime?

There is no agony in any of those places. They are all places of happiness, albeit less happiness than there is in the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom.

Your idea of happiness is strange. Do you actually think people can be happy without God?