LDS Hell

[KevinSim]

You have the audacity to judge God! Your god's punishment is forever.

God commanded us to judge Him. Don't you remember? Exodus 20:3? "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." When Jews transitioned from Judaism to Christianity they were obligated by that commandment to make sure that the God of Christianity was in fact the same God they had worshiped as Jews. Now I would say to traditional Christians, how in the world have they come to the conclusion that the God they worship is indeed the same God that revealed Exodus 20:3? Well, one thing that has to be there is that God has to be good. If he that currently inspires traditional Christianity is not good, then it's being inspired by an evil impostor, and traditional Christians should figure that out in a hurry.

So your god is powerless to do what he wants. Why do you pray to him?

Phoebe Ann, you would rather worship and pray to someone who claims he has all power, but tortures his enemies forever, than someone who admits he doesn't have all power, but does the right thing? Why? Why should the act of praying to someone be reserved only for someone who has all power? Why should whether the object of our prayer is good or not play no part in whether we should pray to him or not?

That's not in your scripture. Therefore, it's wishful thinking or mere speculation.

Do&Co 93:29. "Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be." Do you think it's wishful thinking, or mere speculation, to take the logical leap that God cannot destroy that that verse 29 clearly says God cannot create? It looks like a pretty straightforward conclusion to me.

Is God just? Does the punishment fit the crime? How do you know? Does Satan's punishment fit his crime?

It doesn't matter whether the punishment fits the crime or not! All that matters is that no good is being done by letting the unsaved suffer extreme agony forever. No good for anyone. If God has the power to annihilate, then why in the world doesn't He put the unsaved out of their misery, cause them to cease to exist?

Your idea of happiness is strange. Do you actually think people can be happy without God?

Fine! It doesn't affect my argument for the residents of the Terrestrial and Telestial Kingdoms to be happy or miserable. The simple fact is that they made themselves miserable (if they are in fact miserable in the end), and there was only one thing that God the Father could do to alleviate their misery, and that was to send his Son, Jesus Christ, to Earth to suffer and die for their sins. God does not add to their misery. God did everything He could do to rescue them, and there's nothing more He could have done. If God had had the power to annihilate them (assuming you are right and they are not happy), then He would have annihilated them, but as I stated above, He didn't have that power.

 

[Rescued One]

God commanded us to judge Him. Don't you remember? Exodus 20:3? "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." When Jews transitioned from Judaism to Christianity they were obligated by that commandment to make sure that the God of Christianity was in fact the same God they had worshiped as Jews. Now I would say to traditional Christians, how in the world have they come to the conclusion that the God they worship is indeed the same God that revealed Exodus 20:3? Well, one thing that has to be there is that God has to be good. If he that currently inspires traditional Christianity is not good, then it's being inspired by an evil impostor, and traditional Christians should figure that out in a hurry.

You are not to judge God! You aren't holy enough to do that. You are not omniscient either. Mormonism is so false and blasphemous that it is enough to make Christians sick.

Phoebe Ann, you would rather worship and pray to someone who claims he has all power, but tortures his enemies forever, than someone who admits he doesn't have all power, but does the right thing? Why?

There is no one good except the true God and I refuse to serve the fictitious gods of Mormonism.

Why should the act of praying to someone be reserved only for someone who has all power? Why should whether the object of our prayer is good or not play no part in whether we should pray to him or not?

There is no one good except the Triune God.

Exodus 20
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them:

Matthew 22
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Do&Co 93:29. "Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be." Do you think it's wishful thinking, or mere speculation, to take the logical leap that God cannot destroy that that verse 29 clearly says God cannot create? It looks like a pretty straightforward conclusion to me.

It's just plain stupid to believe the lies of Joseph Smith, Jr.

It doesn't matter whether the punishment fits the crime or not! All that matters is that no good is being done by letting the unsaved suffer extreme agony forever. No good for anyone. If God has the power to annihilate, then why in the world doesn't He put the unsaved out of their misery, cause them to cease to exist?

The punishment of the wicked is just. Therefore it does matter if the punishment fits the crime.

Fine! It doesn't affect my argument for the residents of the Terrestrial and Telestial Kingdoms to be happy or miserable. The simple fact is that they made themselves miserable (if they are in fact miserable in the end), and there was only one thing that God the Father could do to alleviate their misery, and that was to send his Son, Jesus Christ, to Earth to suffer and die for their sins. God does not add to their misery. God did everything He could do to rescue them, and there's nothing more He could have done. If God had had the power to annihilate them (assuming you are right and they are not happy), then He would have annihilated them, but as I stated above, He didn't have that power.

Your fictitious god is weaker than Satan and weaker than man.

 

[KevinSim]

You are not to judge God! You aren't holy enough to do that. You are not omniscient either. Mormonism is so false and blasphemous that it is enough to make Christians sick.

There is no one good except the true God and I refuse to serve the fictitious gods of Mormonism.

Traditional Christianity teaches of a God that has certain characteristics. The LDS Church teaches of a God that also has certain (sometimes different) characteristics. Of course, there are also several other faiths that teach of other types of God. Phoebe Ann, if we can't judge between these ideas of God, how do we tell which are fictitious and which are true?

The punishment of the wicked is just. Therefore it does matter if the punishment fits the crime.

I'm not for a second ready to concede that it is just for a person that has sinned for a finite period of time to be sentenced to an infinite amount of extreme agony. But if in some twisted sense it could be considered just, then what good would there be in that justice?

Your fictitious god is weaker than Satan and weaker than man.

Better to be weak and good, then to be strong and evil. But God as you understand him isn't actually strong; he just tells you he is.

 

[Rescued One]

Traditional Christianity teaches of a God that has certain characteristics.

I thank God for the truth He reveals to His sheep. He is Triune and merciful.

The LDS Church teaches of a God that also has certain (sometimes different) characteristics. Of course, there are also several other faiths that teach of other types of God. Phoebe Ann, if we can't judge between these ideas of God, how do we tell which are fictitious and which are true?

I don't believe the lies that Mormonism teaches. I believe what God has revealed to His sheep.

I'm not for a second ready to concede that it is just for a person that has sinned for a finite period of time to be sentenced to an infinite amount of extreme agony. But if in some twisted sense it could be considered just, then what good would there be in that justice?

When were you in hell? How do you know hell is unjust?

Better to be weak and good, then to be strong and evil. But God as you understand him isn't actually strong; he just tells you he is.

The Triune God isn't evil. His mercies are new every morning.
You call Him evil and a liar. The devil inspires that kind of talk.

When does Outer Darkness disappear? When are the humans sent there reformed? It seems to me you're being hypocritical.

 

[KevinSim]

I thank God for the truth He reveals to His sheep. He is Triune and merciful.

How do you know that it is truth that he that you think is God reveals to his sheep? How do you know that he is merciful? How do you know that he is even Triune, and isn't just telling you that he's Triune?

I don't believe the lies that Mormonism teaches. I believe what God has revealed to His sheep.

How do you know that what you think are God's revelations to his sheep are actually from God? How do you know that those revelations themselves aren't lies?

When were you in hell? How do you know hell is unjust?

Phoebe Ann, you didn't answer my question. I said, if by some twisted logic an eternity in Hell can be considered a just punishment for a finite amount of sinning, then what good is that justice?

The Triune God isn't evil. His mercies are new every morning.
You call Him evil and a liar. The devil inspires that kind of talk.

How do you know that the devil doesn't inspire your kind of talk?

When does Outer Darkness disappear? When are the humans sent there reformed? It seems to me you're being hypocritical.

How many times do we have to go over this? Your idea of God includes his ability to annihilate the souls of the unsaved; mine does not. I have never said that God must annihilate the souls of the unsaved; I have simply said that God must annihilate them if He can annihilate them. The traditional Christian God can annihilate them but doesn't; the LDS God would annihilate them if He could, but He cannot. You can't blame God for failing to annihilate them if He lacks the ability to annihilate anyone.

 

[Rescued One]

How do you know that what you think are God's revelations to his sheep are actually from God? How do you know that those revelations themselves aren't lies?

Does God lie?

John 8
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

How do you know Joseph Smith didn't lie about what did or did not happen in the woods near his home?

Phoebe Ann, you didn't answer my question. I said, if by some twisted logic an eternity in Hell can be considered a just punishment for a finite amount of sinning, then what good is that justice?

What good is it for devout Baptists and Methodists to spend eternity in a terrestrial kingdom?

How do you know that the devil doesn't inspire your kind of talk?

How many times do we have to go over this? Your idea of God includes his ability to annihilate the souls of the unsaved; mine does not. I have never said that God must annihilate the souls of the unsaved; I have simply said that God must annihilate them if He can annihilate them. The traditional Christian God can annihilate them but doesn't; the LDS God would annihilate them if He could, but He cannot. You can't blame God for failing to annihilate them if He lacks the ability to annihilate anyone.

Where's the verse that says the Mormon god would annihilate sinners if he could?

Alma 26
35 Now have we not reason to rejoice? Yea, I say unto you, there never were men that had so great reason to rejoice as we, since the world began; yea, and my joy is carried away, even unto boasting in my God; for he has
all power, all wisdom, and all understanding; he comprehendeth all things, and he is a merciful Being, even unto salvation, to those who will repent and believe on his name.

Doctrine and Covenants 19
1 I am Alpha and Omega, Christ the Lord; yea, even I am he, the beginning and the end, the Redeemer of the world.

2 I, having accomplished and finished the will of him whose I am, even the Father, concerning me—having done this that I might subdue all things unto myself—

3 Retaining all power, even to the destroying of Satan and his works at the end of the world, and the last great day of judgment, which I shall pass upon the inhabitants thereof, judging every man according to his works and the deeds which he hath done.

4 And surely every man must repent or suffer, for I, God, am endless.

5 Wherefore, I revoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my left hand.

6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.

7 Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory...

15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.

 

[fatboys]

Why would God command us to forgive our enemies as well as love them? Then you want us to believe that God is not capable of forgiveness? Explain

 

[BigDaddy4]

According to the Encyclopedia of Mormonism either view is compatible with the message of the Gospel.

Is that an authoritative source??

 

[Rescued One]

Why would God command us to forgive our enemies as well as love them? Then you want us to believe that God is not capable of forgiveness? Explain

God forgives me. He's capable. Apparently your god's forgiveness is very conditional and based on whether or not a person is married in the Mormon temple. I can just imagine where Mormons think my sister is spending eternity even though she was still a member when she died.

 

[Rescued One]

How many times do we have to go over this? Your idea of God includes his ability to annihilate the souls of the unsaved; mine does not. I have never said that God must annihilate the souls of the unsaved; I have simply said that God must annihilate them if He can annihilate them. The traditional Christian God can annihilate them but doesn't; the LDS God would annihilate them if He could, but He cannot. You can't blame God for failing to annihilate them if He lacks the ability to annihilate anyone.

Just to please you, we won't discuss it anymore.

If your god is incapable of annhilating sinners, he can forgive them and let them out of their prisons: terrestrial kingdom, telestial kingdom, and outer darkness.

End of discussion.

 

[KevinSim]

If your god is incapable of annhilating sinners, he can forgive them and let them out of their prisons: terrestrial kingdom, telestial kingdom, and outer darkness.

I'm not sure that God can let souls out of the Terrestrial or Telestial Kingdoms. I'm aware of the many passages of scripture that say that God will judge us, which would seem to indicate that God is the great judge who will decide what the fate of each individual person is, but I think that it's much closer to the truth to look at God as a great spiritual physician that knows how to heal us from spiritual diseases. If a physician diagnoses a patient with cancer, it's absolutely silly to blame the physician for the cancer. And if a physician diagnoses a patient with tuberculosis and prescribes treatment for the tuberculosis, nobody in their right mind would blame the physician if the patient refuses to take the treatment. I think it's the same way with God. God doesn't so much keep people from leaving the Terrestrial Kingdom or Telestial Kingdom, as the residents of those kingdoms keep themselves from leaving. They stay where they're comfortable, and the only thing God could do about getting them from one kindgom to another was to send His Son to the Earth to atone for those people's sins. If those people refuse to make the most use of the atonement, then there's nothing God can do about where they end up, and they will indeed end up in one of the lower kingdoms.

 

[KevinSim]

Is that an authoritative source??

I don't know if it's an authoritative source or not. I do know that I cannot bring myself to believe that God knows every last detail about what I'm going to do in my life.

 

[KevinSim]

Does God lie?

John 8
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Why don't you tell me whether God lies, Phoebe Ann? John 11:4 quotes Jesus as saying of His friend Lazarus, "This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby." Then verse 14 says, "Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead." So was Lazarus' sickness unto death or wasn't it? Either he was dead or he wasn't dead. Jesus seemed to be saying he was both.

I think there is a purpose for everything God says. I don't think God ever tries to deceive us. But I think that if someone assumes that God will never say something that can be demonstrated to be false, like the above comments about Lazarus, they're deceiving themselves. God uses language however it suits Him, and if He needs to apparently contradict Himself to make a point, then He will apparently contradict Himself.

How do you know Joseph Smith didn't lie about what did or did not happen in the woods near his home?

I have never trusted a word that has ever come out of Joseph Smith's mouth. I don't think most Latter-day Saints have either. I believe Smith didn't lie about what happened in the woods near his home because God told me the LDS Church is true, and the LDS Church teaches that he didn't lie.

What good is it for devout Baptists and Methodists to spend eternity in a terrestrial kingdom?

As I stated in the other post, I'm not convinced that God has the ability to get the devout Baptists and Methodists out of the Terrestrial Kingdom. Well, God did find a way to get them out, and that was by sending His Son to pay for their sins. If those Baptists and Methodists don't make full use of Jesus' atonement, then there's nothing that God can do for them. You can't blame God for them staying in the Terrestrial Kingdom any more than you can blame the doctor for a patient's death from tuberculosis, if the doctor prescribed a treatment for that patient that s/he didn't make use of.

Where's the verse that says the Mormon god would annihilate sinners if he could?

Where's the verse that says that you, Phoebe Ann, are saved? There isn't one. There also isn't a verse that says God would annihilate the sinners if He could, but I know He would have, because I know God.

 

[withwonderingawe]

I don't know if it's an authoritative source or not. I do know that I cannot bring myself to believe that God knows every last detail about what I'm going to do in my life.

"God knows the end from the beginning and all the possibilities in between" Maxwell

 

[KevinSim]

"God knows the end from the beginning and all the possibilities in between" Maxwell

Now see, I don't disagree with that statement at all. God does know everything that has ever happened, and He does know, in a general sense, what the end will be. And He knows all the possibilities in between. Nothing catches Him by surprise.

But I would emphasize that one phrase, in a general sense. I don't think He knows every single person that will make it into the Celestial Kingdom. For a lot of us, that decision hasn't been made yet. Some of us might decide to do what we need to do, and some of us might decide not to, and there's no way for anyone to determine with certainty which will and which will not.

 

[withwonderingawe]

Now see, I don't disagree with that statement at all. God does know everything that has ever happened, and He does know, in a general sense, what the end will be. And He knows all the possibilities in between. Nothing catches Him by surprise.

But I would emphasize that one phrase, in a general sense. I don't think He knows every single person that will make it into the Celestial Kingdom. For a lot of us, that decision hasn't been made yet. Some of us might decide to do what we need to do, and some of us might decide not to, and there's no way for anyone to determine with certainty which will and which will not.

Laying in bed one night wondering where our teenage daughter was when my hubby said, if the Celestial Kingdom means more teenagers I think I'll skip it.

 

[Rescued One]

Just to please you, we won't discuss it anymore.

If your god is incapable of annhilating sinners, he can forgive them and let them out of their prisons: terrestrial kingdom, telestial kingdom, and outer darkness.

End of discussion.

I'm not sure that God can let souls out of the Terrestrial or Telestial Kingdoms. I'm aware of the many passages of scripture that say that God will judge us, which would seem to indicate that God is the great judge who will decide what the fate of each individual person is, but I think that it's much closer to the truth to look at God as a great spiritual physician that knows how to heal us from spiritual diseases. If a physician diagnoses a patient with cancer, it's absolutely silly to blame the physician for the cancer. And if a physician diagnoses a patient with tuberculosis and prescribes treatment for the tuberculosis, nobody in their right mind would blame the physician if the patient refuses to take the treatment. I think it's the same way with God. God doesn't so much keep people from leaving the Terrestrial Kingdom or Telestial Kingdom, as the residents of those kingdoms keep themselves from leaving. They stay where they're comfortable, and the only thing God could do about getting them from one kindgom to another was to send His Son to the Earth to atone for those people's sins. If those people refuse to make the most use of the atonement, then there's nothing God can do about where they end up, and they will indeed end up in one of the lower kingdoms.

Quote the verses.

 

[BigDaddy4]

I don't know if it's an authoritative source or not. I do know that I cannot bring myself to believe that God knows every last detail about what I'm going to do in my life.

Is God a liar?

1 John 3:20 "If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything."

 

[KevinSim]

Quote the verses.

There aren't any verses. This is simply what I believe. But that doesn't make it untrue. Give me a description of what God does that makes more sense.

 

[KevinSim]

Is God a liar?

1 John 3:20 "If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything."

Apparently you think that God is a liar. Consider the idea that Columbus sailed to India. That's a thing. It's false, but it's a thing. Does God know that Columbus sailed to India? Or the idea that Enoch built an ark and filled it with animals, two of every species. That is also a thing. Once again, it's false, but it's still a thing. Does God know that Enoch built such an ark? Or the idea that Jesus appeared to Phillip on the road to Damascus. Does God know that Jesus appeared to Phillip on that road?