Hell.

[ChristianT]

Universalism denies free will. It's to say God doesn't care what we choose, he's going to decide anyway.

No, Universalism says all are saved and goin' to heaven whether we like it or not.
Your definition is true for Calvinism as much as it is for Universalism.

 

[Montalban]

No, Universalism says all are saved and goin' to heaven whether we like it or not.

which denies free will

 

[ChristianT]

which denies free will

Yes. Even biblical free will.

 

[Timothew]

So the lake of fire is their death?

I beleive everyone has to pay their sins off, and I don't beleive every sin is equal. Whether it is for a time that people have to suffer for their sin, or whether they are snuffed out immediately, or are in there forever with whatever degree God decides for them, I can only assume what God has shown to me.

I know it is the second death, but when you die a second time, you dont sleep. Like we would on our first death. It could have a significant change ?

Yes, I believe the lake of fire is their death. Their second death, since it happens after their first death. The bible says "The lake of fire is the second death" and "whoever overcomes will not be hurt by the second death."

 

[he-man]

My own belief is that the burning up is figurative language. A person cannot live forever unless they are given the gift of eternal life. My belief is that the wicked perish immediately on judgment day.

That is what the Bible teaches!
Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

 

[Timothew]

Was the burning bush that Moses saw ever consumed?

No, the bible says the bush was οὐ κατεκαίετο, not burnt up. This is the opposite of the chaff in Matthew 3:12 which was κατακαύσει, burnt up. (ou is a negative in greek) The burning bush represents God, who is eternal. The chaff represent the wicked, who will be consumed by the fire.

You mean 'circular'

No, I mean 'biblical', according to the bible. The wages of sin is death, not eternal life being tortured.

 

[he-man]

No, the bible says the bush was οὐ κατεκαίετο, not burnt up. This is the opposite of the chaff in Matthew 3:12 which was κατακαύσει, burnt up. (ou is a negative in greek) The burning bush represents God, who is eternal. The chaff represent the wicked, who will be consumed by the fire.

No, I mean 'biblical', according to the bible. The wages of sin is death, not eternal life being tortured.

You got that right! Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

 

[Timothew]

That is what the Bible teaches!
Mat 25:10And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

11Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

12But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

I know! It isn't a coincidence, I derived my beliefs from careful bible study.

 

[Timothew]

You got that right! Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

It all fits together, once you have all of the pieces. The key is letting go of traditional preconceptions and just reading what the words of the bible say.

 

[ChristianT]

It all fits together, once you have all of the pieces. The key is letting go of traditional preconceptions and just reading what the words of the bible say.

I say we have another reformation. We can be the Literants (the ones who read the Bible for face value within hermeneutics and cultural / language contexts) The other side can be the Catholics, representing the catholic note the small "C", which means everyone of a group, not of the Vatican, etc. Just for fun, we could go to a new country.

Of course there's always the biblical route, to live accordingly as we go [throughout life].

 

[Timothew]

No, Universalism says all are saved and goin' to heaven whether we like it or not.
Your definition is true for Calvinism as much as it is for Universalism.

Christian Universalism (I don't hold this philosophy) says that one day everyone will agree with God and submit to his leadership. It doesn't deny free will, It says that all wills will eventually freely submit to God's will. It is optimistic, I just don't find it biblical. (or circular ) I believe that once a person dies, they cannot decide for or against God, because they are dead.

 

[Timothew]

I say we have another reformation. We can be the Literants (the ones who read the Bible for face value within hermeneutics and cultural / language contexts) The other side can be the Catholics, representing the catholic note the small "C", which means everyone of a group, not of the Vatican, etc. Just for fun, we could go to a new country.

Of course there's always the biblical route, to live accordingly as we go [throughout life].

I would welcome another reformation, actually a return to God. In my church we would call it a revival. Medieval ideas of hellish torture have no place in God's Kingdom.

 

[Montalban]

No, the bible says the bush was οὐ κατεκαίετο, not burnt up. This is the opposite of the chaff in Matthew 3:12 which was κατακαύσει, burnt up. (ou is a negative in greek) The burning bush represents God, who is eternal. The chaff represent the wicked, who will be consumed by the fire.

No, I mean 'biblical', according to the bible. The wages of sin is death, not eternal life being tortured.

We were talking first about what couldn't be destroyed forever.

I noted that the bush could continue to burn. Whilst it might 'represent' God, it isn't God. It is a mere representation and it was never fully consumed. I have thus answered your 'challenge' to find something that could be continually be 'destroyed' without being finally destroyed.

Now you've gone to the chaff IN THE FIRE.

The fire itself is unquenchable – which indicates forever. There's no point having a 'forever' fire in your understanding.

κατακαίω is the word Strong's concordance gives for the verse in Matthew
Matthew 3 (Blue Letter Bible: KJV - King James Version)

As for Exodus – the Hebrew is בָּעַר which is 'to burn'
Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

I'd be interested here if you're referring to the GREEK of the OT, which Greek version are you referring to? Is this the Septuagint?

 

[Evergreen48]

Luke 24:39. [Jesus said] "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."

So, what is to burn in hell?

 

[Montalban]

Luke 24:39. [Jesus said] "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."

So, what is to burn in hell?

I believe the burning is only a metaphor to describe the anguish we suffer in being separated from God.

God is like the sun. How we react to this light is like how different materials react the sun's warmth.

If you have a heart like wax, you 'melt'. If your heart is like clay it hardens - which is how we can say that God hardened Pharoah's (spelling?) heart

It wasn't God compelling the king of Egypt to rebel against him. He did so because it was in his being to rebel against God.

 

[Montalban]

Medieval ideas of hellish torture have no place in God's Kingdom.

This is simply because it is a means of conveying how we are when we separate ourselves from God.

 

[Soulgazer]

Literalism leads to Marcionism. There is no other honest outcome for it. No one can study the bible thoroughly and honestly take it literally, because of a couple Key verses here and there. Another argument against literal interpretation is that if you are really a follower of Christ, poison can't hurt you. Jim Jones tried that. Epic fail. Kentucky snake handlers die every year, because it says the snakes won't harm you. On the practical side, you really have no idea of the sanity of some of the authors. We just sort of take it on faith. The author of Revelation sounded like He was eating moldy rye bread, and if I met someone on the street talking gibberish like that, I would cross to the other side, while keeping one eye open to make sure he didn't pull a knife.


So after, seven or eight threads on the reality or lack thereof of Hell, I am forced to conclude that people will believe or not, depending on their level of credulity, their "basic" training in various churches, and the particular spin their church or personal vision places on the already varied opinions in the Bible.

 

[Evergreen48]

I believe the burning is only a metaphor to describe the anguish we suffer in being separated from God.

God is like the sun. How we react to this light is like how different materials react the sun's warmth.

If you have a heart like wax, you 'melt'. If your heart is like clay it hardens - which is how we can say that God hardened Pharoah's (spelling?) heart

It wasn't God compelling the king of Egypt to rebel against him. He did so because it was in his being to rebel against God.

Acts 17:28. "For in him [God] we live, and move, and have our being . . . . . "

If we are separated from God, we no longer live or move, and we no longer have our being. There is none else but he to support us. I don't see how there could be anything there to suffer anguish.

 

[Montalban]

Acts 17:28. "For in him [God] we live, and move, and have our being . . . . . "

If we are separated from God, we no longer live or move, and we no longer have our being. There is none else but he to support us. I don't see how there could be anything there to suffer anguish.

Do you sin?

If you sin are you separated from God?

Do you cease to exist?

 

[Soulgazer]

Do you sin? Yes. Can't help it, we were born into death wearing monkey suits, with monkey instincts and limited capacity for love.

If you sin are you separated from God? No. Sin keeps you from seeing that you can never be separated from your Father's love.

Do you cease to exist? What is existence in a world where you are born dead, compared to the existence that is coming when we shall know all things and be freed from the constraints and constant demands of physical limitations?

Your sins will be burned up in a flaming blaze of glory, every knee shall bow and know that Christ is Lord, as Christ is triumphant and will never lose a single soul that the Father has delivered into His gentle hands.