Hell.

[Timothew]

Absolutely. If I said "I will destroy you" that has a finality about it. If I said "I will keep destroying you" it has an ongoing sense to it

If you "keep on destroying me" without ever "destroying me", I'd say that's a great big "fail"! It's also impossible.

 

[Timothew]

The main objection, I believe, is based on the mischaracterisation of God - people can't think that God, a being of love, would punish someone eternally.

But this is based on the belief that it's God who's choosing the punishment. We choose the punishment by separating ourselves from God

Nope, my objection is Biblical, although it is true that God is good and torture is evil. God does good and He doesn't do evil.

 

[ChristianT]

Can God make a being He cannot destroy forever?
If He can't, then He's not omnipotent,
If He can, then He's not omnipotent,
Can God be not omnipotent, then He's not omnipotent (nor God) <-- lol, figure-8 reasoning That's the first I've seen it!

 

[Timothew]

Can God make a being He cannot destroy forever?
If He can't, then He's not omnipotent,
If He can, then He's not omnipotent,
Can God be not omnipotent, then He's not omnipotent (nor God)

God can give eternal life to whoever He chooses. He doesn't give eternal life to those that He doesn't give eternal life to.

 

[Going Merry]

Timothew
Do you believe that the wicked get a resurrection too?

 

[Timothew]

Timothew
Do you believe that the wicked get a resurrection too?

Yes, but their resurrection is only for judgment, then they pay the wages of their sin which is death. So yes, It's right back to death for them, nothing gained, eternal life lost. The wicked are not resurrected to eternal life.

 

[ChristianT]

Timothew
Do you believe that the wicked get a resurrection too?

I'm not Timothew (unless the theory of Allism (I will eventually play as you after a couple time-traveling reincarnation cycles) is true),

However the Bible refutes the resurrection of the wicked *EDIT* in the long term */EDIT*, so that's why I don't believe in that.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by ChristianT Can God make a being He cannot destroy forever?
If He can't, then He's not omnipotent,
If He can, then He's not omnipotent,
Can God be not omnipotent, then He's not omnipotent (nor God)

God can give eternal life to whoever He chooses. He doesn't give eternal life to those that He doesn't give eternal life to.

Looks pretty cut and dry to me

 

[Going Merry]

Yes, but their resurrection is only for judgment, then they pay the wages of their sin which is death. So yes, It's right back to death for them, nothing gained, eternal life lost. The wicked are not resurrected to eternal life.

So the lake of fire is their death?

I beleive everyone has to pay their sins off, and I don't beleive every sin is equal. Whether it is for a time that people have to suffer for their sin, or whether they are snuffed out immediately, or are in there forever with whatever degree God decides for them, I can only assume what God has shown to me.

I know it is the second death, but when you die a second time, you dont sleep. Like we would on our first death. It could have a significant change ?

 

[Noxot]

God is Love past knowing. our choice will not destroy us forever. God will turn it around. God does not give up on his hurt little creatures.

what kind of God is not God? it is the antichrist who is not God and who lies about who God is. this one wants to cut your head off. it is within you, the antichrist is within you. the struggle is within.

God will destroy us with His breath and we will be made clean. words, God is past words. past human concepts... human concepts that get limited thanks to the tree of knowledge of good and evil. the fruit of it makes us blind it kills us.

God is spiritual. we need to let go of our nonspiritual understanding because it is nothing but dirty rags. the new man is the one that lives, the one raised from the dead. Christ saves us from all.

our own understanding is nothing, cast it aside. they are traps, they are chains weighing us down. we are fools, we need wisdom. do not say you know, that is a lie. only God knows.

what does the bible say? and how can a dead man read that which is spiritual? all day long men are killing themselves with the word of God, because they don't know how to use a sword correctly.

we are all in this struggle, we are weak, we all have faults. together we are strong, with Christ, with God... all things are possible.

please don't be insulted, look! some of the worse off people in the bible, some of the worse sinners are the people that think they follow God. and think they know what God says to do.

i'm not immune, unless I am with Christ. the only way to be immune is the grace of God. i need out of this. we all need out of all the lies. together we will live unto God.

 

[ChristianT]

God is Love past knowing. our choice will not destroy us forever. God will turn it around. God does not give up on his hurt little creatures.

what kind of God is not God? it is the antichrist who is not God and who lies about who God is. this one wants to cut your head off. it is within you, the antichrist is within you. the struggle is within.

God will destroy us with His breath and we will be made clean. words, God is past words. past human concepts... human concepts that get limited thanks to the tree of knowledge of good and evil. the fruit of it makes us blind it kills us.

God is spiritual. we need to let go of our nonspiritual understanding because it is nothing but dirty rags. the new man is the one that lives, the one raised from the dead. Christ saves us from all.

our own understanding is nothing, cast it aside. they are traps, they are chains weighing us down. we are fools, we need wisdom. do not say you know, that is a lie. only God knows.

what does the bible say? and how can a dead man read that which is spiritual? all day long men are killing themselves with the word of God, because they don't know how to use a sword correctly.

we are all in this struggle, we are weak, we all have faults. together we are strong, with Christ, with God... all things are possible.

please don't be insulted, look! the some of the worse off people in the bible, some of the worse sinners are the people that think they follow God.

How about the person who hears about God and blasphemes Him and encourages others to do the same? Will God save that person in the end if that person willingly and personally mocked the mission, work, and outcome of Christ, the Holy Spirit, and the Father? If so, what biblical proof is there?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

So the lake of fire is their death?

I beleive everyone has to pay their sins off, and I don't beleive every sin is equal. Whether it is for a time that people have to suffer for their sin, or whether they are snuffed out immediately, or are in there forever with whatever degree God decides for them, I can only assume what God has shown to me.

What about the doctrine of purgatory?

http://www.christianforums.com/t7626354/
Purgatory, Limbo, Hell and Hades, the origin, and does the Bible teach them....

Purgatory as a doctrine teaches that a Christian's soul must burn in purgatory after death until all of their sins have been purged...................

http://www.christianforums.com/t7525779/
Purgatory, if it exists how long do you guys have to stay there?

Purgatory, if it exists how long do you guys have to stay there?

 

[Noxot]

How about the person who hears about God and blasphemes Him and encourages others to do the same? Will God save that person in the end if that person willingly and personally mocked the mission, work, and outcome of Christ, the Holy Spirit, and the Father? If so, what biblical proof is there?

to be honest. when we sin against God, we are blaspheming God. darkness does not comprehend Light, it does not grasp light.

do you believe that a spiritual giant like paul was amazed at how deep and past knowing the Words of God were? do you really think I can tell you what the judgment of God is for all things?

I am simple. I only know that God is Love and he is not like men. i'm just little. i know God does not want people to have broken legs and to suffer forever.

i have to ask you what the "end" means. because when i hear that the last enemy to be slain is death, i see an end there. if there is no death, then there is only life.

people don't understand that we are not just flesh beings, but also spiritual beings. they do not get that a spiritual death is to not follow God. but they still exist, because death does not swallow up life, but life swallows up death. all death will be destroyed. the bible proclaims it. but life is, because God is life. and God made us very good. if we are very good, that stays for ever. but the evil elements will all burn away, because they are not on the foundation of God. but evil is just a shadow of the image of Christ who we all are. just because we are a shadow for a little while, it does not mean we are that forever. but the image of God, that is forever.

whatever is left is forever. can very good not exist? if God makes something it is like He is. we fell away, God gave his life for us. how much more then shall we rather live than die then? is God a respecter of persons or does he love all his creatures?

satan is a shadow, but Lucifer is an image of Christ. unforgiveness says that God will not forgive. but God is forgiveness and is not a lier but rather God is the Truth.

but as simple I can tell you this. God is very very Good and Loving and His judgments are based on his Love. God does nothing without being Himself. God is Love.

all shadows will be destroyed, but we will all be with God in His Love and we will praise Him forever because He loves us so much. it is a hard saying to accept, if you do not know that God is past our wicked hearts.

 

[ChristianT]

to be honest. when we sin against God, we are blaspheming God. darkness does not comprehend Light, it does not grasp light.

do you believe that a spiritual giant like paul was amazed at how deep and past knowing the Words of God were? do you really think I can tell you what the judgment of God is for all things?

I am simple. I only know that God is Love and he is not like men. i'm just little. i know God does not want people to have broken legs and to suffer forever.

i have to ask you what the "end" means. because when i hear that the last enemy to be slain is death, i see an end there. if there is no death, then there is only life.

people don't understand that we are not just flesh beings, but also spiritual beings. they do not get that a spiritual death is to not follow God. but they still exist, because death does not swallow up life, but life swallows up death. all death will be destroyed. the bible proclaims it. but life is, because God is life. and God made us very good. if we are very good, that stays for ever. but the evil elements will all burn away, because they are not on the foundation of God. but evil is just a shadow of the image of Christ who we all are. just because we are a shadow for a little while, it does not mean we are that forever. but the image of God, that is forever.

whatever is left is forever. can very good not exist? if God makes something it is like He is. we fell away, God gave his life for us. how much more then shall we rather live than die then? is God a respecter of persons or does he love all his creatures?

satan is a shadow, but Lucifer is an image of Christ. unforgiveness says that God will not forgive. but God is forgiveness and is not a lier but rather God is the Truth.

but as simple I can tell you this. God is very very Good and Loving and His judgments are based on his Love. God does nothing without being Himself. God is Love.

While a lot of that is truthful and biblical-based (no scripture quoted which is ) You say God is love yet according to you, He doesn't judge people based on how they responded to His love (which is what a relationship basically is), but rather on how He knows His love is. While that is great for face value, does God force His love on people?

 

[Montalban]

If you "keep on destroying me" without ever "destroying me", I'd say that's a great big "fail"! It's also impossible.

Was the burning bush that Moses saw ever consumed?

 

[Montalban]

Nope, my objection is Biblical,

You mean 'circular'

although it is true that God is good and torture is evil. God does good and He doesn't do evil.

Which as I noted several times God doesn't torture people in hell, their torment is themselves separating themselves from God.

 

[Montalban]

So the lake of fire is their death?

This is straight out of Islamic teaching - that people pass through a fire

 

[Noxot]

While a lot of that is truthful and biblical-based (no scripture quoted which is ) You say God is love yet according to you, He doesn't judge people based on how they responded to His love (which is what a relationship basically is), but rather on how He knows His love is. While that is great for face value, does God force His love on people?

God judges according to His own judgments and not according to what wicked men think.

God is always forcing His Love, because He is unstoppable. you can try to escape, but the flood is going to destroy you. he will render to each justly, that does not mean he has given up on anyone. that does not mean he will give up and let them stay in a lesser state of good.

it is the heart of men that says God will delete me. it is the heart of men that says God will let me suffer forever. it is blindness, wicked and a lie. God is Love, that is the Truth. He came to this earth to help us and He knew we would kill him. but He turns everything to grace because His Love is unstoppable.

can a little fire put out the sea? a few splashes and the fire is no more. but i can't measure how long God planned to do it. God made all of reality. now which do you think men is? do you think they are the sea or the little weak fire? who is great? is it God or is it evil that is great?

 

[ChristianT]

God judges according to His own judgments and not according to what wicked men think.

God is always forcing His Love, because He is unstoppable. you can try to escape, but the flood is going to destroy you. he will render to each justly, that does not mean he has given up on anyone. that does not mean he will give up and let them stay in a lesser state of good.

it is the heart of men that says God will delete me. it is the heart of men that says God will let me suffer forever. it is blindness, wicked and a lie. God is Love, that is the Truth. He came to this earth to help us and He knew we would kill him. but He turns everything to grace because His Love is unstoppable.

Deleted for decency (and so some info can stay unsifted). While I know His Spirit is inexhaustible and irresistible, Universalism is not true, not at all. If it is, then Jesus' death was unnecessary, as God judges people based on His own judgements, not whether or not people accepted the offer of Jesus.

can a little fire put out the sea?

It can if empowered by God's almighty Spirit.

 

[Montalban]

Universalism denies free will. It's to say God doesn't care what we choose, he's going to decide anyway.