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timlamb said:God is merciful, as you have quoted "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God".
We are not worthy of the glory of God. We are made righteous through Christ, if we accept the gift.
Tim, I believe that the scripture says that they who do not find the broad, or wide gate to into destruction. Where does it say that this destruction is eternal torment?timlamb said:OK, so we know that the way to heaven is narrow, everyone else goes somewhere, gee, how many options do we have?
Not me. I have done nothing deserving of eternal fire. I deserve a good spanking and a firm reprimand... maybe a good flogging, and perhaps some good beating... but eternal fire? Nah. I am only 50 years old. Even if I raped, killed stole and lied every day of my life, I'd only deserve being punished for ... let's say 50 times 365 life sentences of punishment... about 18,250 years of punishment.daneel said:I've stated thusly many times that I deserve eternal fire for my sins before a Just and Holy God.
How about you?
Der Alter said:You can quote the satanic stuff from hellmakers all you like. The owner of that website has shown no evidence of any qualification in the Biblical languages.
Der Alter said:Here once again from the secular LSJ classical Greek lexicon. I stress "secular" because they do not have any theological view whatever to promote. They are/were only interested in how the original speakers defined words. The scholarship, i.e. the ancient pre-Christian Greek writings, documenting the definitions is shown in red.
And having posted this I have absolutely no doubt you will ingore this and any other evidence which proves you wrong. But this is not just for your benefit, it is for anyone who might be confused about this. They can see for themselves which definition is based on scholarship, and evidence and which is just the unsupported assumptions and presuppositions of the person who wrote them.
Liddell-Scott-Jones A Greek Lexicon
You refered to these scriptures as proof texts for your ET theory. I didn't quote them to prove UR. I quoted them and then asked how they proved the ET theory.Der Alter said:And you believe that scripture, including, Paul teaches UR. Where is UR in 1 Cor 3:17?
Where does this scripture teach UR?
Paul does NOT teach UR!
Paul does NOT teach UR!
Der Alter said:"Dog" was a Jewish derogatory term for a pagan priest who practiced temple ritual sodomy.
Der Alter said:Jewish Encyclopedia -Dog.
The dog being an unclean animal, "the breaking of a dog's neck," mentioned as a sacrificial rite in Isa. lxvi. 3 (compare Ex. xiii. 13), indicates an ancient Canaanite practise (see W. R. Smith, "Rel. of Sem." p. 273). The shamelessness of the dog in regard to sexual life gave rise to the name ("dog") for the class of priests in the service of Astarte who practised sodomy ("kedeshim," called also by the Greeks κυναίδοι, Deut. xxiii. 19 [A. V. 18]; compare ib. 18 [17] and Rev. xxii. 15; see Driver ad loc.), though as the regular name of priests attached to the temple of Ashtoret at Larnaca has been found on the monuments (see "C. I. S." i., No. 86).
Der Alter said:The only little problem is you did not read my previous posts from the Jewish Encyclopedia. Also the cut/paste someone posted from Lightfoot also documents that the Jews believed in a hell of eternal punishment.
I don't want a commentary on the scriptures cited in the two articles, and I don't give a fig about YOUR links or YOUR posts. I want to know where the doctrine of eternal torment is taught in the Old Testament.Der Alter said:Here are most, if not all, the scriptures cited in the two articles I posted and a link to my post with the articles.
Gen. xix. 24; Ex. ix. 23, xi. 4, xii. 12; Josh. x. 11; Amos (iii. 2, v. 20).; Isa. ii. 12, x. 3, xxii. 5; Micah i. 3; Isa. xiv. 25, xxiv.-xxv.; Zeph. i-iii., iii. 8-12; Mal. iii. 2 et seq., 9; Isa. xxxiii. 14 et seq.; Isa. xxiv. 21-xxv. 8, xxvi. 19; Ezek. Xxxvii; Dan. xii. 2; II Esd. vii. 26-36, Ps. ix. 18, Ps. l. 4; Syriac Apoc. Baruch, lxxxv. 9-12; Book of Jubilees, xxx. 22, xxxvi. 10; Abot ii.; Zech. xiii. 9; Jonah ii. 3; Ps. lxxxviii. 12, xvi. 10, xl. 3, cvii. 14; Ezek. xxvi. 20; Isa. xxx. 33,
Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14; Enoch, xvii. 4-6; Enoch, lxvii. 6; Isa. lxvi. 16, 24; Job x. 22; Enoch, x. 4, lxxxii. 2; Enoch, xxvii. 3, xlviii. 9, lxii. 12; Isa. xiv. 9-10, x. 6, xci. 9, et al; Judith xvi. 17; Isa. xxxiii. 11; Enoch, xxvii,
KCDAD said:Not me. I have done nothing deserving of eternal fire. I deserve a good spanking and a firm reprimand... maybe a good flogging, and perhaps some good beating... but eternal fire? Nah. I am only 50 years old. Even if I raped, killed stole and lied every day of my life, I'd only deserve being punished for ... let's say 50 times 365 life sentences of punishment... about 18,250 years of punishment.
ME! Look I have my hand up.daneel said:I see. A good spanking, firm reprimand, flogging and a good beating for killing, raping, stealing and lying every day of your life.....
Any other universalists out there who feel they are'nt worthy of eternal fire for their sins before a Just and Holy God?
Don't be shy.
So what are you going to do with us, once we all get our hands up? Make us stay in at recess?daneel said:Ok. That's 2 universalists who can say they are'nt deserving of an eternal fire before a Just and Holy God.
any more?
EchoPneuma said:Good luck Havahope. It ISN'T taught in the OT, so you will be waiting for a long time for those scriptures.
Isn't it interesting that the greek word "aidios" that DOES MEAN perpetual, eternal, unending, everlasting, etc....is NOT the word that is used in reference to hell and punishment. Instead it's the greek word "aionios" which has the meaning of "age long".
Since there was a perfectly good greek word that specifically meant "eternal, everlasting etc", then why isn't that the word used in reference to hell and punishment if that is what the writer's meant?
Why, instead, did they choose "aionios"?
Because they never intended to convey the meaning of eternal or everlasting, but rather "age enduring".
It's so ironic that an entire doctrinal belief system was based on the mistranslation of a single greek word.
daneel said:Ok. That's 2 universalists who can say they are'nt deserving of an eternal fire before a Just and Holy God.
any more?
I mean, really, daneel, who are you to be taking a head count here?Havahope said:So what are you going to do with us, once we all get our hands up? Make us stay in at recess?
Easy to say .. but I was asking about if one could do so if they found they were actually there.daneel said:I've stated thusly many times that I deserve eternal fire for my sins before a Just and Holy God.
No.. I do not believe that anyone deserves to be eternally tormented.How about you?
Wrong, neither I nor Der have said it is not possable, the bible says only a few will make it, I believe that.Havahope said:The gift is ours. It is totally by God's grace. There are no "ifs" attached to it.
Tim, I believe that the scripture says that they who do not find the broad, or wide gate to into destruction. Where does it say that this destruction is eternal torment?
Listen to what else Jesus said:
Mark 10: 17. "And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
18. And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
19. Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
20. And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.
21. Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
22. And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.
23. And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
24. And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!
25. It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
26. And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?
27. And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: "for with GodALL things are possible."
Imagine that! Even though you and Der say that it is not possible for all to be saved, Jesus said, "With God ALLthings are possible.
Really? Like I said it is easy to speak idle words such as these. What if you find that your faith is incorrect and you wake up one morning in hell knowing you will be spending eternity there. Would you think that you deserve to be there? Would you look up and say praise God for I truly deserve to be here?timlamb said:I'm with you daneel, thank you Jesus
and without faith and repentance, after 18250 years, you would still have eternity.KCDAD said:Not me. I have done nothing deserving of eternal fire. I deserve a good spanking and a firm reprimand... maybe a good flogging, and perhaps some good beating... but eternal fire? Nah. I am only 50 years old. Even if I raped, killed stole and lied every day of my life, I'd only deserve being punished for ... let's say 50 times 365 life sentences of punishment... about 18,250 years of punishment.
Tim, since you are here, and I know you believe in eternal torment, give me your insight on the above question.Havahope said:There is a question I would like to ask the eternal torment "screamers".
Scripture (1Cor. 15:44) teaches us that there is a natural, or earthy body, and there is a spiritual body. No other body is taught other than just these two. So, I am curious as to which of these bodies will be eternally tormented?
There is nothing more to say to you. Truth and things spiritual are wasted on you.KCDAD said:Matt 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. What do you think it means to become like little children ? Its great to quote but what does it mean?
Matt 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen. [Few are chosen. NOT everyone] Chosen for discipleship not chosen for the cosmic kickball team.
Matt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting [αιωνιον/aiónion] fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: The sheep and goats those who did right and those who claimed to know Jesus he is talking about nations not individuals but you knew that, right?
Mark 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein. How does a little child receive something? What does this mean to you?
Luke 13: 23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. You have to back to verse 20 to get the meaning here.It is about leavening. A little leavens the whole loaf. THE WHOLE LOAF. You can not try to get into the gate Leaven works whether the loaf wants it to or not. You could have included this verse but it stands in stark contrast with seek and ye shall find, knock and door shall be opened Lu 13:25
When once the master of the house is risen up
and hath shut to the door, and ye begin
to stand without, and to knock at the
saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us
and he shall answer and say unto you,
I know you not whence ye are :
Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, [αμην αμην/amen amen] I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Again, translate this Christianese in to English. What does it mean to be born again? Cannot see the kingdom nothing about entering. Seeing implies it is already right in front of us and we just cant see it.
Matthew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. It wouldnt be too very difficult to exceed the brood of vipers and hypocrites that the scribes and Pharisees were. He certainly didnt set a very high standard here.
Matt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, [i.e. Kingdom of heaven, vs. 21] and few there be that find it. [Few! NOT everyone.]
Matt 7: 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. [When do Jesus' words change to everyone shall enter?] The kingdom of Heaven again but it is right in front of us but some cant see it.
Matt 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. Peter is dead meat, huh.
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