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Hell is not permanent.

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Havahope

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Commentary continued ....

If our Saviour had been the first author of this phrase, then might it have been tolerable to have looked for the meaning of it amongst Christian expositors; but seeing it is a scheme of speech so familiar amongst the Jews, and our Saviour spoke no other than in the known and vulgar dialect of that nation, the meaning must be fetched thence, not from any Greek or Roman lexicon. That which we are to inquire after is, how it was understood by the auditory then present: and I may lay any wager that the Jews, when they heard Abraham's bosom mentioned, did think of nothing less than that kind of limbo which we have here described. What! Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, &c., in a lake without water, in prison, on the very brim of hell! Is this to be in paradise? is this to be under the throne of glory? And was Lazarus carried thither by angels when he was carried into Abraham's bosom?
We meet with a phrase amongst the Talmudists; Kiddushin, fol. 72: it is quoted also from Juchasin, fol. 75. 2. Let us borrow a little patience of the reader, to transcribe the whole passage:
"Rabbi [Judah] saith to Levi, Represent the Persians to me by some similitude. He saith, They are like to the host of the house of David. Represent to me the Iberians. They are like to the angels of destruction. Represent to me the Ismaelites. They are like the devils of the stinking pit. Represent to me the disciples of the wise, that are in Babylon. they are like to ministering angels. When R. [Judah] died, he said, Hoemnia is in Babylon, and consists of Ammonites wholly. Mesgaria is in Babylon, and wholly consists of spurious people. Birkah is in Babylon, where two men interchange their wives. Birtha Sataia is in Babylon, and at this day they depart from God. Acra of Agma is in Babylon. Ada Bar Ahava is there. This day he sits in Abraham's bosom. This day is Rabh Judah born in Babylon."
Expositors are not well agreed, neither by whom, nor indeed concerning whom, those words are spoken, This day he sits 'in the bosom of Abraham.' And for that reason have I transcribed the whole period, that the reader may spend his judgment amongst them. The author of Juchasin thinks they may be the words of Adah Bar Ahavah spoken concerning Rabbi Judah. Another Gloss saith, They are spoken of Adah Bar Ahavah himself. Let us hear them both: "The day that Rabbi died, Rabh Adah Bar Ahavah said, by way of prophecy, This day doth he sit in Abraham's bosom." "There are those indeed that expound, This day doth he sit in Abraham's bosom, thus; that is, This day he died. Which if it be to be understood of Adah Bar Ahavah, the times do not suit. It seems to be understood therefore, This day he sits in Abraham's bosom: that is, This day is Adah Bar Ahavah circumcised, and entered into the covenant of Abraham."
But the reader may plainly see, having read out the whole period, that these words were spoken neither by Adah nor of him, but by Levi, of whom we have some mention in the beginning of this passage, and spoken concerning Rabbi Judah that was now dead. It is Levi also that saith, that in his room, on that very selfsame day, was Rabh Judah born in Babylon, according to the common adage of their schools, which immediately follows; "A just man never dies, till there be born in his room one like him." So saith R. Meir; "When R. Akibah died, Rabbi [Judah] was born: when Rabbi Judah died, Rabh Judah was born: when Rabh Judah died, Rabba was born: when Rabba died, Rabh Isai was born."
We have here, therefore, if we will make up the story out of both Talmuds, another not very unlike this of ours. In the Jerusalem Talmud, Rabbi Judah is conveyed by angels; in the Babylonian, he is placed in Abraham's bosom: neither would the Glosser have doubted in the least either of the thing, or of the way of expressing it, so as to have fled to any new exposition, had he not mistook the person concerning whom these words were uttered. He supposeth them spoken of Adah Bar Ahavah (wherein he is deceived): and because the times do not fall in right, if they were to be understood of his death, he therefore frames a new interpretation of his own, whiles, in the mean time, he acknowledgeth that others expound it otherwise.
We may find out, therefore, the meaning of the phrase according to the common interpretation, by observing, first, that it was universally believed amongst the Jews, that pure and holy souls, when they left this body, went into happiness, to Abraham. Our Saviour speaks according to the received opinion of that nation in this affair, when he saith, "Many shall come from the east and from the west, and shall sit down with Abraham."
Give me leave to transcribe a story a little more largely than usual: "There was a woman the mother of seven martyrs (so we find it also 2 Maccabees 7)." When six of her sons were slain, and the youngest brought out in order to it, though but a child of two years and a half old, "the mother saith to Caesar, 'by the life of thy head, I beseech thee, O Caesar, let me embrace and kiss my child.' This being permitted her, she plucked out her breasts and gave it suck. The she; 'By the life of thy head, I entreat thee, O Caesar, that thou wouldest first kill me and then the child.' Caesar answered, 'I will not yield to thee in this matter, for it is written in your own law, The heifer or sheep, with its young one, thou shalt not kill on the same day.' To whom she; 'O thou foolishest of all mortals, hast thou performed all the commands, that this only is wanting?' He forthwith commands that the child should be killed. The mother running into the embraces of her little son, kissed him and said, 'Go thou, O my son, to Abraham thy father, and tell him, Thus saith my mother, Do not thou boast, saying, I built an altar, and offered my son Isaac: for my mother hath built seven altars, and offered seven sons in one day,'" &c.
This woman, questionless, did not doubt of the innocence and purity of the soul of this child, nor of its future happiness, (for we will suppose the truth of the story) which happiness she expresseth sufficiently by this, that her son was going to his father Abraham. There are several other things to the same purpose and of the same mould, that might be produced, but let this suffice in this place: however, see notes upon verse 24.
Now what this being in Abraham's bosom may signify amongst the Jews, we may gather from what is spoken of the manners and the death of this R. Judah; concerning whom it is said, This day he sits in Abraham's bosom. "Rabbi Judah had the toothache thirteen years; and in all that time there was not an abortive woman throughout the whole land of Israel." For to him it is that they apply those words of the prophet, "He was a man of sorrows, and hath borne our griefs." And for these very pains of his, some had almost persuaded themselves that he was the Messiah. At length this toothache was relieved by Elias, appearing in the likeness of R. Chaijah Rubbah, who, by touching his tooth, cured him. When he died, and was to be buried on the evening of the sabbath, there were eighteen synagogues accompanied him to his grave. "Miracles were done; the day did not decline, till every one was got home before the entrance of the sabbath." Bath Kol pronounced happiness for all those that wept for him, excepting one by name; which one when he knew himself excepted, threw himself headlong from the roof of the house, and so died, &c. But to add no more, for his incomparable learning and piety he was called R. Judah the holy. And whither would the Jew think such a one would go when he went out of this world? Who amongst them, when it was said of him that was in Abraham's bosom, would not without all scruple and hesitancy understand it, that he was in the very embraces of Abraham, (as they were wont at table one to lie in the other's bosom) in the exquisite delights and perfect felicities of paradise? not in 'a lake without water,' 'a prison,' 'the very brink of hell.'
 
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Havahope

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Commentary continued. . .
23. And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
[He seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus.] Instead of commentary, take another parable: "There are wicked men that are coupled together in this world. But one of them repents before death; the other doth not: so the one is found standing in the assembly of the just; the other in the assembly of the wicked. The one seeth the other, [this agrees with the passage now before us] and saith, 'Woe! and alas! here is accepting of persons in this thing: he and I robbed together, committed murder together; and now he stands in the congregation of the just, and I in the congregation of the wicked.' They answer him, 'O thou most foolish amongst mortals that are in the world! Thou wert abominable, and cast forth for three days after thy death, and they did not lay thee in the grave: the worm was under thee, and the worm covered thee: which when this companion of thine came to understand, he became a penitent. It was in thy power also to have repented, but thou didst not.' He saith unto them, 'Let me go now and become a penitent,' But they say, 'O thou foolishest of men, dost thou not know that this world in which thou art is like the sabbath, and the world out of which thou camest is like the evening of the sabbath? If thou dost not provide something on the evening of the sabbath, what wilt thou eat on the sabbath day? Dost thou not know that the world out of which thou camest is like the land, and the world in which thou now art is like the sea? If a man make no provision on land for what he should eat at sea, what will he have to eat?' He gnashed his teeth and gnawed his own flesh."
24. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
[And he cried and said.] We have mention of the dead discoursing one amongst another, and also with those that are alive. "R. Samuel Bar Nachman saith, R. Jonathan saith, How doth it appear that the dead have any discourse amongst themselves? It appears from what is said, And the Lord said unto him, This is the land, concerning which I sware unto Abraham, to Isaac, and Jacob saying: What is the meaning of saying? The Holy Blessed God saith unto Moses, Go thou and say to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, The oath which I sware unto you, I have performed unto your children." Note that: "Go thou and say to Abraham," &c. "There is a story of a certain pious man, that went and lodged in a burying-place, and heard two souls discoursing amongst themselves. Said the one unto the other, 'Come, my companion, and let us wander about the world, and listen behind the veil, what kind of plagues are coming upon the world.' To which the other replied, 'O my companion, I cannot; for I am buried in a cane mat: but do thou go, and whatsoever thou hearest, do thou come and tell me.' The soul went, and wandered about the world," &c.
"The year following he went again, and lodging in a place of burial, he heard two souls discoursing between themselves. Saith the one unto the other, 'O my companion, come, let us wander about the world, and hearken behind the veil, what kind of plagues are coming upon the world.' To which the other, 'O my companion, let me alone; for the words that formerly passed between thee and me were heard amongst the living.' 'Whence could they know?' 'Perhaps some other person that is dead went and told them.'"
"There was a certain person deposited some zuzees with a certain hostess till he should return; and went to the house of Rabh. When he returned she was dead. He went after her to the place of burial, and said unto her, 'Where are my zuzees?' She saith unto him, 'Go, take it from under the hinge of the door, in a certain place there: and speak to my mother to send me my black lead, and the reed of paint by the woman N., who is coming hither tomorrow.' But whence do they know that such a one shall die? Dumah [that is, the angel who is appointed over the dead] comes before, and proclaims it to them."
"The zuzees that belonged to orphans were deposited with the father of Samuel [the Rabbin]. He died, Samuel being absent. He went after him to the place of burial, and said unto them [i.e. to the dead], I look for Abba. They say unto him, Abba the good is here. 'I look for Abba Bar Abba.' They say unto him, 'Abba Bar Abba the good is here.' He saith unto them, 'I look for Abba Bar Abba the father of Samuel; where is he?' They say unto him, He is gone up to the academy of the firmament. Then he saw Levi [his colleague] sitting without." (The Gloss hath it, The dead appeared as without their graves, sitting in a circle, but Levi sat without the circle.) "He saith unto him, 'Why dost thou sit without? why dost thou not ascend?' He answered him, 'They say unto me, Because there want those years wherein thou didst not go into the academy of the Rabbi.' When his father came, he saw him weep. He saith unto him, 'Why dost thou weep?' He saith unto him, 'Where is the orphans' money?' He saith unto him, 'Go, and take it out of the mill-house,'" &c. But I fear, the reader will frown at this huge length of trifles.
[And cool my tongue.] There was a good man and a wicked man that died. As for the good man, he had no funeral rites solemnized, but the wicked man had. Afterward, there was one saw in his dream the good man walking in gardens, and hard by pleasant springs: but the wicked man with his tongue trickling drop by drop at the bank of a river, endeavouring to touch the water, but he could not.
26. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
[A great gulf fixed.] It is well known from the poets, that inferi among the Latins comprehend the seat both of the blessed and the damned, denoting in general the state of the dead, be they according to the quality of their persons allotted either to joys or punishments. On this hand, Elysium for the good; on that hand, Tartarus for the wicked; the river Cocytus, or Acheron, or some such great gulf fixed betwixt them. The Jews seem not to have been very distant from this apprehension of things. "God hath set the one against the other, that is, hell and paradise. How far are they distant? A handbreadth. R. Jochanan saith, A wall is between." But the Rabbins say, They are so even with one another, that you may see out of one into the other.
That of seeing out of the one into the other agrees with the passage before us; nor is it very dissonant that it is said, They are so even with one another; that is, they are so even, that they have a plain view one from the other, nothing being interposed to hinder it, and yet so great a gulf between, that it is impossible to pass the one to the other. That is worth noting, Revelation 14:10, "Shall be tormented with fire and brimstone, in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb."
29. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
[They have Moses and the prophets.] The historical books also are comprehended under the title of the Prophets, according to the common acceptation of the Jews, and the reading in their synagogues: "All the books of the Prophets are eight; Joshua, Judges, Samuel, the Kings, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Isaiah, and the twelve." So the Gemara also reckons them. So we find the Octateuch of the Prophets, as well as the Pentateuch of Moses, in Photius; of which we have spoken elsewhere.
But are the Hagiographa excluded, when mention is made only of the law and the prophets? Our Saviour speaks after the usual manner of their reading Moses and the Prophets in their synagogues; where every ordinary person, even the most rude and illiterate, met with them, though he had neither Moses nor the prophets nor the Hagiographa at his own house. Indeed, the holy writings, were not read in the synagogues (for what reason I will not dispute in this place), but they were, however, far from being rejected by the people, but accounted for divine writings, which may be evinced, besides other things, even from the very name. Our Saviour therefore makes no mention of them, not because he lightly esteems them, but because Moses and the prophets were heard by every one every sabbath day; and so were not the Hagiographa.
31. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
[Neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.] Any one may see how Christ points at the infidelity of the Jews, even after that himself shall have risen again. From whence it is easy to judge what was the design and intention of this parable.
 
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red77

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I appreciate that this was an analogy, but i'm afraid to say that poeple choose to be rotten is taking it a bit too far IMO
One of my friends works as a social worker in the UK, she has to deal with and try to help people who have come from broken homes/are homeless/been abused by parents or in some instances society/who have drug addictions/psychological problems etc
I could go on but i think u get the picture,

I know she's drained by this work sometimes because of the amount of squalor and misery she's exposed to on a regular basis and i know its been hard for her to reconcile this with the existence of God, as far as i know she still doesnt believe in God, i very much doubt that a lot of the clients she has believe either but does this make them rotten? Their lack of belief....?

Again, this is just a point to say that things in life arent black and white, say someone is brought up in a Christian family and encouraged to pray and read the bible from a very early age, that person unsurprisingly becomes Christian

Take someone who lives in a deprived area of glasgow for want of argument and knows nothing much more than poverty, they get to hear the message once from a travelling preacher on a street corner.....that person unsurprisingly does not become Christian.....

Two eternities, two completely different lives........Only God could sort this one out...........
 
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timlamb

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I have answered to your interpetation of most all these scriptures. You read them through worldly eyes finding only what you want to hear
You are a sad result of disception and unbelief. Look at the crowd you run with, some think what you are living now is heaven, some think this is hell.
You live in a clueless existance.
SAD, SAD, SAD
 
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timlamb

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YOU EXPECT TO FIND RIGHTEOUSNESS AND PURITY WHERE IT DOESN'T EXIST. We live in an imperfedt world because of what we are, not because of what God is. I have little tolorence for those who blame God for the deeds of man.
 
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timlamb

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You pervert everything that I say. The truth is not in you. Man cannot justify his own wisdom in the words of God.
You are spiritually sick and you try to infect those around you. You do not look for the things of God, but for what benifits man. You are more concerned with the defence of evil than the purpose of the almighty God.
You do not know what righteousness is, how can you understand God.
You lean upon your own understanding, regardless of the word of God.
There is nothing Good in your words.
 
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red77

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timlamb said:
YOU EXPECT TO FIND RIGHTEOUSNESS AND PURITY WHERE IT DOESN'T EXIST. We live in an imperfedt world because of what we are, not because of what God is. I have little tolorence for those who blame God for the deeds of man.

Firstly i didnt blame God for the deeds of man, you seem to have little tolerance for any who dont share your take on scripture either,

we're all aware we live in an imperfect world and the horror thats in it, it doesnt make any difference though to a child who is abused or someone who is brought up in squalor does it?

as for finding righteousness and purity...? Are you saying that there's no such thing in this world? People do acts of love, righteousness and purity every day, example: my friend who i mentioned is one of the most caring, selfless people who i know, more so than me i dont mind admitting, she's helped and tries to help as many people as she can to get through difficult times, sometimes at her own expense, is this not pure?righteous? I doubt she'd even say it was pure or righteous herself to be honest, and she may not be a Christian but so what? as far as I'm concerned, she truly cares about people, something that gets lost amidst the whole world od dogma, be it fundamental or otherwise...........
 
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red77

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Grief, i actually thought you were more reasonable than some of the more fundamental christians here Tim but i seem to be wrong,

you are judging people here....can u not see this.......noone is telling you what not to believe
they're merely expressing their own beliefs...! they might not tie in with yours but you cant accuse someone of not knowing righteousness......! You just dont have that right......!

Has anyone here said that there is nothing good in your words, and that u dont know anything about love or purity? Why do you people have to be so aggressive....?!
 
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red77

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wellllllll..............yet again this seems the same old fundamentalists are right, everyone else is deluded, decepted, ignorant blah blah blah blah blah, is there actually any love in fundamentalism or is it all just
................
 
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EchoPneuma

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red77 said:
wellllllll..............yet again this seems the same old fundamentalists are right, everyone else is deluded, decepted, ignorant blah blah blah blah blah, is there actually any love in fundamentalism or is it all just
................

HEYYY, don't paint with such a broad brush. I'm a Suth'ern Baptist fundy from way back and I don't believe like either Der or Timlamb. We're not all judgemental and aggressive.

I used to believe in an eternal hell....but God showed me otherwise. I just couldn't figure out how to reconcile those scriptures that Havahope posted (clearly showing universal reconcilation) and those scriptures that Der and Timlamb keep trumpeting (clearly showing eternal damnation). It just didn't fit. They contradicted....and I wasn't willing to just ignore one side or the other in favor of towing the baptist party line.

So I began to pray, seek, research and ask God for the answer to the contradiction. What He showed me was that "hell" was not eternal, but for an unknown period of time (known only to God of course) and was for the purpose of ALL of God's judgements and punishments in the bible....REPENTANCE AND RESTORATION....not everlasting damnation.

He made me look at these scriptures in Ephesians 1 VERY carefully....

9And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.
11In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.

He seared those words into my heart....."ACCORDING TO THE PLAN OF HIM WHO WORKS OUT EVERYTHING IN CONFORMITY WITH THE PURPOSE OF HIS WILL".

There it was. God's will WILL prevail. EVERYTHING will be done according to God's will and purpose. He WILL work it all out according to the purpose of HIS WILL. He is sovereign. Man's will CANNOT thwart the will of God....even in regards to salvation.

and just what IS the will of God in regards to man's salvation?

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

There it is. That is God's WILL concerning men perishing. He's NOT WILLING that ANY should perish.

And since He will work out EVERYTHING in conformity with the purpose of HIS WILL.....then NONE WILL PERISH.

That is what He showed me. I believe it. So maybe I'm not a fundy anymore...I don't know...and frankly I don't care. It's the truth. Let God be true and every man a liar.

Hang in there red. God loves you. He's made a way. If we accept Him and follow Him in this life....then we are spared the punishment of fire to bring us to repentance. God doesn't delight in having to punish anyone...but He will in order to have His will be done....which is reconcilation between sinful men and Himself. ....and EVERYONE being brought under the headship of Christ. It WILL be done according to His word and HIS WILL.

Amen

(BTW, howyadoin? I'm Echo. Nicetameecha. )
 
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buddy mack

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looks like everyone is fussie today, heck what's wrong with bein judgemental and aggressive anyhoo? look at it this way, its only the internet, i mean heck we can't throw rocks at each other through the screen yet.
so fight away every one, just remember don't take it to seriously
 
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red77

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Echo..............its a pleasure to make your aquaintance.......!
Red
 
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katallasso

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You see, this is where you are wrong, the first 15 years of my christian walk I believed just as you do. But, I asked for truth, I didn't believe something just because I was told it by preachers and eventually I came to see the light of those scriptures I posted.

Unfortunately you see through a glass darkly and are the "sad result of disception and unbelief". My God is so much bigger than yours, He is able to redeem everyone He created.

You live in an unredeemable existance.

SAD SAD SAD
 
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EchoPneuma

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It may only be the internet Buddy, but we're still dealing with real people who have real feelings....and God is STILL watching.

Like 1 Cor 13 says...."what does it matter if I have ALL knowledge, ALL faith and ALL prophecies...if I don't have love, I AM NOTHING."

I agree, certain people take it WAAAYYY too seriously and in the process they become short tempered, judgemental, and aggressive....thereby effectively nullifying any positive influence they might have had by their vast knowledge of all things spiritual.

BTW....howyadoin?
 
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katallasso

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Oh Echo, what a wonderful testimony. Now I've heard it all, a Southern Baptist that doesn't believe in eternal hellfire. Yippee!!!

 
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buddy mack

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in the temple and drove out the money changers?
the fact is this, when it comes to religion emotions and feelings get in the way. why, i don't know forsure. i think it is because none of us can prove our FAITH is the true one over someone else FAITH. Kinda like a defence mode we go in or something.
I have found the best way to deal with it is not to take it personal. I enjoy everyone's opinion even when they are wrong. After all if they don't agree with mine they are of course wrong and need to be straighten out, and that is why i am here.

the one and only knowitall, or is it noitall? buddymack.
 
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EchoPneuma

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katallasso said:
Oh Echo, what a wonderful testimony. Now I've heard it all, a Southern Baptist that doesn't believe in eternal hellfire. Yippee!!!

Wanna hear something even stranger?? I'm still teaching one of the largest classes in the church....and it's a large church (approx 15,000 members). I'm just not allowed to teach my perspective on universal salvation unfortunately. But at least I haven't been tarred and feathered.

But I do share it one on one with whoever wants to see why my beliefs changed. I'm also a full preterist...which is even stranger still in a fundy baptist church.

I guess I'm just a weird duck. God has taken me down roads I never in a million years would have believed I'd be going down....but what a journey.
 
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katallasso

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Na, Buddy.....I know more than you !!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
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red77

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It must be dificult sometimes though, i had to get out the church when i realised my views clashed, not cos i was forced to or anything, i just had to to get out of all the hellfire doctrine and stuff, i knew i' have gone mad otherwise.........

probably mad now really thinkin about it but what can u do................
 
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