Hell is not permanent.

Der Alte · Mar 23, 2006

red77 said:
[SIZE=-1]Ok...........i dont tend to use a lot of scriptural refences in what i write, to me Christianity comes just as much from the inside as it does from constantly having to quote bible texts in order to make a point

let me ask you something Der Alter, and i would like you to give me an honest answer if you can with no scripture references or quotes, just your honest feelings from you as a human being ;
given the choice would you prefer for there to be a hell of eternal torment people or would you not?
To be honest if you're going to respond with 'the bible says'.........then please dont bother answering, just to specify again i'm interested in what your thoughts are as a person on this and if you think hell should exist[/SIZE]....

What is the point of your question?

Today I had to make a decision that will have an immediate affect on my life for, at least, the next two years, and a overall affect for the rest of my life. Neither choice was my ideal.

If I had my druthers there would be no poverty, crime, hunger, war, evil of any kind, that would include hell.

Having said that, again what is the point?

When he was being tried for heresy, the German reformationist, Martin Luther, said, "I am captive to the word God, ']Hier stehe ich, Ich kann nichts anderes.'" "Here I stand, I can do no other."

red77 · Mar 23, 2006

Der Alter said:
What is the point of your question?

Today I had to make a decision that will have an immediate affect on my life for, at least, the next two years, and a overall affect for the rest of my life. Neither choice was my ideal.

If I had my druthers there would be no poverty, crime, hunger, war, evil of any kind, that would include hell.

Having said that, again what is the point?

When he was being tried for heresy, the German reformationist, Martin Luther, said, "I am captive to the word God, ']Hier stehe ich, Ich kann nichts anderes.'" "Here I stand, I can do no other."

I think the point of my question was unequivocally clear, and i cant think of a way of making it any clearer, though i shall try.....
Regardless of whether you or I are right on whether an eternal hell of torment exists or not and putting theology and scripture completely aside; would you as a human being prefer that such a place did not exist....?

katallasso · Mar 23, 2006

Der Alter said:
Can we say, IRRELEVANT? The issue was NOT what does modern Judaism teach? I was responding to posts that assert that Judaism NEVER, EVER, taught an eternal hell, a place of punishment for the wicked. I proved from the Jewish Encyclopedia, which cites many scriptures and ancient Jewish writings, that ancient Jews did believe in hell and they called it Gehenna. Proof listed and ignored.

Note, Is 45:17, ONLY, Israel, not all mankind, has been saved by YHWH.

Two is not many! That is correct. I cited, not a “biased” Christian source or website, but the completely unbiased Jewish Encyclopedia, written by Jews for Jews, whichcites many scriptures and ancient Jewish writings, that proves ancient Jews did believe in hell and they called it Gehenna. Documentation posted and ignored. The Jewish Encyclopedia couldn’t care less about any Christian doctrine.

Nothing posted here refutes or disproves anything I have posted. The argument I was replying to was that ancient Jews, “never, ever,” believed in an eternal hell where the wicked were punished or tormented for forever. And even this second quote supports that.

Do Universalists believe, “Gehinnom as a place of torture and punishment, fire and brimstone,” “Only the utterly wicked do not ascend to Gan Eden at the end of this year,” “eternal damnation [in purgatory]?” Those are some of the beliefs in the source you quoted.

This ignores everything I posted. Ignores my questions about the text. Ignores the Jewish belief about Gehenna, that I documented...

Why are your quotes any more relevant than the ones I posted? You post from a Jewish Encyclopedia published by Funk & Wagnalls in the early 1900's, your current posting by Rabbi Kaufmann is not ancient, he just died in 1926. And again the posts I made on Gehenna were from jewish sites not christian.

QUESTION: Do Jews believe in Heaven and Hell?
ANSWER: Although the Jewish Bible appears to focus primarily on our life and behavior in this world, Judaism definitely believes in Heaven and life after death. The plural form in Genesis 1:26, "Let us form man in our image," indicates that man has a dual nature -- a spiritual soul and a physical body. This is clearly seen in Genesis 2:7, "G-d formed man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath (soul--

) of life and man became a living being."
When a person dies the physical body returns to the earth, but the spiritual soul lives on eternally, as it says, "The dust will return to the earth, as it was, and the spirit will return to G-d who gave it." (Ecclesiastes 12:7)
We do not believe in eternal damnation and hell. The Jewish belief is in a purgatory that purifies the soul of its spiritual blemishes prior to its return to G-d. (Psalm 49:15, II Samuel 14:13, Isaiah 45:17)
For a more thorough description of heaven and life after death, see "If You Were G-d" in the suggested reading list.

Isa 45:17 Israel has been saved by the LORD With an everlasting salvation; You will not be put to shame or humiliated To all eternity.

http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/handbook/s_faq.html

Gehinnom: A Jewish Hell

Only truly righteous souls ascend directly to Gan Eden, say the sages. The average person descends to a place of punishment and/or purification, generally referred to as Gehinnom.

The name is taken from a valley (Gei Hinnom) just south of Jerusalem, once used for child sacrifice by the pagan nations of Canaan (II Kings 23:10). Some view Gehinnom as a place of torture and punishment, fire and brimstone. Others imagine it less harshly, as a place where one reviews the actions of his/her life and repents for past misdeeds.

The soul's sentence in Gehinnom is usually limited to a twelve-month period of purgation before it takes its place in Olam Ha-Ba (Mishnah Eduyot 2:9, Shabbat 33a). This twelve-month limit is reflected in the yearlong mourning cycle and the recitation of the Kaddish (the memorial prayer for the dead).

Only the utterly wicked do not ascend to Gan Eden at the end of this year. Sources differ on what happens to these souls at the end of their initial time of purgation. Some say that the wicked are utterly destroyed and cease to exist, while others believe in eternal damnation (Maimonides, Mishneh Torah, Law of Repentance, 3:5-6).
http://myjewishlearning.com/ideas_be...nHell_Rose.htm

This is from Wikipedia:

Gehinom is fairly well defined in rabbinic literature. It is sometimes translated as "hell", but one should note that the Christian view of hell differs from the Jewish view. For Christians, hell is an abode of eternal torment or separation from God, where serious sinners and/or non-Christians go (details vary among Christian denominations). In Judaism, gehinom - while certainly a terribly unpleasant place - is not hell. The overwhelming majority of rabbinic thought maintains that people are not tortured in gehinom forever; the longest that one can be there is said to be twelve months, with extremely rare exception. This is the reason that even the closest relatives of Jews will not mourn, or sit Shiv'ah, for the dead for longer than an eleven month period. Some consider Gehinom a spiritual forge where the soul is purified for its eventual ascent to Gan Eden ("Garden of Eden").

Here again we see "purification".

Here's more:
Does Judaism believe in Heaven and Hell?

Judaism does have a concept of reward and punishment in the afterlife. However, since words we use bring to mind certain images, particularly “Heaven” and “Hell,” it is better to use the Jewish terminology which comes without the baggage.

When someone dies, the disembodied soul leaves this sensory world and enters “Gan Eden,” the spiritual Garden of Eden (a.k.a. “Heaven&#8221. In the Garden of Eden, the soul enjoys the “rays of the Divine Presence,” a purely spiritual enjoyment dependent on the Torah learning and good deeds done while in a body. Every year on the yahrtzeit, the day of passing, the soul ascends to another level closer to G-d. This gives it tremendous pleasure.

Before entering the Garden of Eden, though, every soul must be refined, for it cannot enjoy the Divine Presence to the fullest degree with the pleasures and coarseness of our physical world still engraved on it. These would give the soul poor “reception” of divine radiance, and must be removed.

In order to restore the level of purity the soul had possessed before entering the physical world, it must undergo a degree of refinement commensurate to the degree which the body may have indulged itself. If a person sinned in this lifetime, as most of us do, then, to continue the radio analogy, we have serious interference. This means there is even more cleaning to be done. This cleaning process hurts, but is a spiritual and mental process designed not for retribution, but to allow one to truly enjoy his/her reward in Gan Eden. This cleaning process is called “Gehinom,” or, in the vernacular, “Hell.”

Mrs. Sarah Levi
http://www.askmoses.com/qa_detail.html?h=215&o=164

This took me about 20 minutes. Imagine what I could find if I didn't have to go cook supper.

However, for Jews, gehenna—while certainly a terribly unpleasant place—is not hell. The majority of rabbinic thought maintains that people are not tortured in hell forever; the longest that one can be there is said to be 12 months. It is a spiritual forge where the soul is purified for its eventual ascent to Gan Eden [Heaven], and where all imperfections are purged. [In this sense, it is somewhat similar to the Roman Catholic purgatory, however the time period has a definate maximum]. Gehennom (lit: the valley of Hinnom, in Jerusalem; i.e. hell) is the sinner's experience in the afterlife. In other words, it's the same "place" as gan eiden (lit: the garden of Eden; i.e. heaven) — it's the perspective of the individual that makes it one or the other.
In some descriptions of the afterlife, we find that beyond Gan Eden there is a little known realm called the otzar, the divine treasury of souls; this is also called the tzror ha-hayyim, the bundle of life. This otzar is a transcendent realm of human souls, in the highest spheres of creation. Before souls are born they are said to come from this treasury, and they return they at some point after death.

http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:...ient=firefox-a

Der Alte · Mar 23, 2006

red77 said:
[SIZE=-1]I think the point of my question was unequivocally clear, and i cant think of a way of making it any clearer, though i shall try.....
Regardless of whether you or I are right on whether an eternal hell of torment exists or not and putting theology and scripture completely aside; would you as a human being prefer that such a place did not exist[/SIZE]....?

I answered that, altho the question is irrelevant. I as a human would have preferred to not have to make the decision I did have to make this morning concerning my profession. Bottom line we don't always get our druthers.

I made another choice, I stand with Luther. I am captive to the scripture, here I stand I can do no other. That is, and always will be, my answer regardless how the question is phrased.

Der Alte · Mar 23, 2006

katallasso said:
[SIZE=-1]Why are your quotes any more relevant than the ones I posted? You post from a Jewish Encyclopedia published by Funk & Wagnalls in the early 1900's, your current posting by Rabbi Kaufmann is not ancient, he just died in 1926. And again the posts I made on Gehenna were from jewish sites not christian[/SIZE].

I am not interested in what modern Judaism teaches on hell. It doesn't matter how many websites you quote.

I was responding to more than one post which stated that Judaism NEVER, EVER, taught hell or eternal punishment. I quoted two articles from the Jewish Encyclopedia (JE), published by KTAV publishing, not Funk and Wagnall's. Both articles cited scripture, and other ancient Jewish writings, documenting that Gehenna became the Jewish name for hell. And that wicked people were punished forever in Gehenna. Hell was also called sheol, and IIRC 8 other names.

My post "by Rabbi Kaufman" was an article from JE on ancient Jewish eschatology.

Therefore you, and anyone else who claims ancient Jews did not believe in a hell of eternal punishment, do not know what you are talking about.

Again, it does not matter how many websites talking about the beliefs of modern Judaism. Modern Judaism is not relevant. What you cannot do is prove from any source, whatsoever, that what I posted is false. The evidence is there the Jews themselves acknowledge it.

katallasso · Mar 23, 2006

Der Alter said:
I am not interested in what modern Judaism teaches on hell. It doesn't matter how many websites you quote.

I was responding to more than one post which stated that Judaism NEVER, EVER, taught hell or eternal punishment. I quoted two articles from the Jewish Encyclopedia (JE), published by KTAV publishing, not Funk and Wagnall's. Both articles cited scripture, and other ancient Jewish writings, documenting that Gehenna became the Jewish name for hell. And that wicked people were punished forever in Gehenna. Hell was also called sheol, and IIRC 8 other names.

My post "by Rabbi Kaufman" was an article from JE on ancient Jewish eschatology.

Therefore you, and anyone else who claims ancient Jews did not believe in a hell of eternal punishment, do not know what you are talking about.

Again, it does not matter how many websites talking about the beliefs of modern Judaism. Modern Judaism is not relevant. What you cannot do is prove from any source, whatsoever, that what I posted is false. The evidence is there the Jews themselves acknowledge it.

Jewish Encyclopedia. New York-London: Funk and Wagnalls Company, 1901-1906. 12 Vols. (Reprinted New York: Ktav Publishing House, 1964). (E)

red77 · Mar 23, 2006

Der Alter said:
I answered that, altho the question is irrelevant. I as a human would have preferred to not have to make the decision I did have to make this morning concerning my profession. Bottom line we don't always get our druthers.

I made another choice, I stand with Luther. I am captive to the scripture, here I stand I can do no other. That is, and always will be, my answer regardless how the question is phrased.

noooooooooooo, you didnt answer my question, and to be honest its no big surprise, in my experience whenever i've asked people who are fundamentalists what they actually think themselves about certain issues they just cant for whatever reason......its like its some sort of sin to actually be able to think and judge for themselves.....it always seems to have to come down to quoting bible verses or whatever......it was a simple question i asked you and one in which most people would have given a straight answer one way or another.........

KCDAD · Mar 23, 2006

Der Alter said:
Do you understand the difference?

No.

KCDAD · Mar 23, 2006

Der Alter said:
What did you say you were doing about all those illiterate, uneducated, people in the world? Or does it not matter because they will all be saved anyway?

First take the log out of your own eye.

I teach here in the US where I have been put.

KCDAD · Mar 23, 2006

So there are contradictions in Jewish scripture... contradictions in Christian scripture... what's a reasonable person to think?

Havahope · Mar 24, 2006

Jipsah said:
Even if you've never heard of it. But ignorance is no excuse, and if you never heard of our Lord then you just have to be tortured for all eternity to satisfy God's "righteousness".
Right.

Der Alter said:
What saith scripture?
KJV Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

WEB Rom 4:15 For the law works wrath, for where there is no law, neither is there disobedience.

5:13 For until the law, sin was in the world; but sin is not charged when there is no law.

Okay, that takes care of those who have not heard. That seems fair enough.

Der Alter said:
I have been living, teaching, and preaching in a country that is predominately Buddhist and Animist for almost 8 years. I have spent less than 2 months in the U.S. during this time.

Why are you doing this? Don't you realize that by so doing you are causing many, many people to go to hell that would not have gone if they had never heard the gospel and rejected it? I mean, if their sins are not counted against them by reason of their having not heard, wouldn't it be better if none of them heard? That way they could all go to heaven and none would go to hell. Right?

Der Alte · Mar 24, 2006

katallasso said:
[SIZE=-1]Jewish Encyclopedia. New York-London: Funk and Wagnalls Company, 1901-1906. 12 Vols. (Reprinted New York: Ktav Publishing House, 1964). (E)[/SIZE]

I will take your word for it. The online version does not show the publisher or pub. dat. And my local (tiny) library removed it from the shelves and nobody knows why. I did see where the editors expressed appreciation to Drs Funk and Wagnall in the preface.

But that changes nothing it is still fully a Jewish standard reference work, written, researched, and compiled by many Jewish scholars, reviewed, and edited by Jewish scholars, which cites scripture, Jewish and other ancient writings, and previous Jewish works of this nature. Please avail yourself of the preface at the home page, it is very enlightening in this regard.

Der Alte · Mar 24, 2006

red77 said:
[SIZE=-1]noooooooooooo, you didnt answer my question, and to be honest its no big surprise, in my experience whenever i've asked people who are fundamentalists what they actually think themselves about certain issues they just cant for whatever reason......its like its some sort of sin to actually be able to think and judge for themselves.....it always seems to have to come down to quoting bible verses or whatever......it was a simple question i asked you and one in which most people would have given a straight answer one way or another[/SIZE].........

Yessssssss! I did answer it. Here it is again.

[SIZE=+1]If I had my druthers there would be no poverty, crime, hunger, war, evil of any kind, that would include hell.[/SIZE]

So in response to my rather charitable response you give me this in your face, insulting krap that I can't think for myself, blah, blah, blah. I dont care what the Bible says, I dont want to hear what the Bible says. I want to know what you feel as a human being about hell.

Which merely reinforces my position, universalists evidently do not give a d_mn about Gods word. To me this statement is spitting on Gods word.

It always, always, always, comes back to how they feel about, what they think, what they want, or wish things to be, not what God says. If you dont want the Biblical answer why are you even at a Christian forum?

We're done here.

Der Alte · Mar 24, 2006

Havahope said:
[SIZE=-1]Okay, that takes care of those who have not heard. That seems fair enough.

Why are you doing this? Don't you realize that by so doing you are causing many, many people to go to hell that would not have gone if they had never heard the gospel and rejected it? I mean, if their sins are not counted against them by reason of their having not heard, wouldn't it be better if none of them heard? That way they could all go to heaven and none would go to hell. Right.[/SIZE]

Unbiblical rubbish. Answered here.

[SIZE=+1]δικαιοσυνη γαρ θεου εν αυτω αποκαλυπτεται εκ πιστεως εις πιστιν καθως γεγραπται ο δε δικαιος εκ πιστεως ζησεται

αποκαλυπτεται γαρ οργη θεου απ ουρανου επι πασαν ασεβειαν και αδικιαν ανθρωπων των την αληθειαν εν αδικια κατεχοντων

διοτι το γνωστον του θεου φανερον εστιν εν αυτοις ο γαρ θεος αυτοις εφανερωσεν

τα γαρ αορατα αυτου απο κτισεως κοσμου τοις ποιημασιν νοουμενα καθοραται η τε αιδιος αυτου δυναμις και θειοτης εις το ειναι αυτους αναπολογητους[/SIZE]

Der Alte · Mar 24, 2006

KCDAD said:
[SIZE=-1]I teach here in the US where I have been put[/SIZE].

Yeah right! Copout. You don't give a fig about,

"sub saharan Africa, central highlands China...Over 50% of the world is ILLITERATE, UNEDUCATED, living hand to mouth, with no thought except where their next meal may come from."

That was just a bunch of hypocritical nonsense. Getting in my face about something you couldn't care less about. Let me get a mucking shovel and give it the attention it deserves.

timlamb · Mar 24, 2006

red77 said:
todays world is a mess, what i want is a hope that everything will be made right and i'm not sitting on a fence when i'm saying that, i do not believe in an eternal hell as you have described, i am not exactly being vague about that, deep within me i know it makes no sense and is cruel, all my posts i believe have made that pretty clear, you choose to believe your own doctrine and i'll do the same

Red, I don't really care what you think about hell at this point, the hope you look for is in Christ Jesus. Faith in Christ for the forgiveness of sin. Salvation doesn't come in some after life revelation, it is the choice you make with the knowledge you have, it is in every decision you will make up to the grave, it is deciding to trust the Lord. If this makes you angry, please don't respond, I don't need another chewing out. I bowed out of this thing about fifteen posts ago, but you seemed to want answers, you asked questions, and I did my best.
I mean no harm, I wish you well.
God Bless,
timlamb

katallasso · Mar 24, 2006

This thread on hell not being a permanent has been very eyeopening to me and has even more cemented in my soul the truth that hell is not eternal.

In the studying I have done on Jewish beliefs of gehenna, most of which have been at Jewish sites, the consensus is that gehenna is a place of purification. So to me Ultimate Reconciliation is far more likely than an eternal hell.

It certainly makes no sense to me that a merciful, loving God would send the vast majority of His creation to torture with no possible way out forever.
Thank Jesus Christ for his work on the cross that made a way for all to be reconciled.

Rom 11:11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation {has come} to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.
Rom 11:12 Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be!
Rom 11:13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
Rom 11:14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them.
Rom 11:15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will {their} acceptance be but life from the dead?
2Cr 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
John 12:32...And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me.

John 1:29...The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:44)
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit--fruit that will last. (John 15:16)

Titus 2:11...For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
1 Timothy 2:5 & 6....For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Romans 5:18...Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.

Romans 11:15...For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will {their} acceptance be but life from the dead?

Romans 11:32... For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

1 Cor 3:15...If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

1 Cor. 15:22...For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Phil. 2:9-11...Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Remember that "No on can say, 'Jesus is Lord', except by the Holy Spirit." 1 Cor 12:3

Col. 1:19-22...For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell;And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in [your] mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

1 Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
1Ti 4:11 These things command and teach.
I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me; I was found by those who did not seek me. (Isaiah 65:1)

For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. (Romans 9:15-16)

He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets. (Acts 3:21)

Thanks be to God who in his infinite mercy has made a way for His creation to be with Him for all eternity.

red77 · Mar 24, 2006

Der Alter said:
Yessssssss! I did answer it. Here it is again.
[SIZE=+1]If I had my druthers there would be no poverty, crime, hunger, war, evil of any kind, that would include hell.[/SIZE]
So in response to my rather charitable response you give me this in your face, insulting krap that I can't think for myself, blah, blah, blah. I dont care what the Bible says, I dont want to hear what the Bible says. I want to know what you feel as a human being about hell.

Which merely reinforces my position, universalists evidently do not give a d_mn about Gods word. To me this statement is spitting on Gods word.

It always, always, always, comes back to how they feel about, what they think, what they want, or wish things to be, not what God says. If you dont want the Biblical answer why are you even at a Christian forum?

We're done here.

OK, if i was insulting in how i phrased my last post then i apologise, it's not my intention to get into some pointless bickering with you, however, your comments about my 'not caring what the bible says' 'not wanting to hear what the bible says', 'spitting on the word' merley for asking u a question are going over the line just as much......
I think your standpoint on universalism is pretty set regardless of what anyone has to say on the subject, your sweeping generalisations that all universalists are self absorbed and dont give a damn about God's word because they interpret texts differently to yourself is at best insulting IMO...
Finally I'm at this forum because as much as you i've been searching for a biblical answer which universalism offers and fundamentalist doctrine does not, its just as valid biblically despite your dismissiveness to it......

red77 · Mar 24, 2006

katallasso said:
This thread on hell not being a permanent has been very eyeopening to me and has even more cemented in my soul the truth that hell is not eternal.

In the studying I have done on Jewish beliefs of gehenna, most of which have been at Jewish sites, the consensus is that gehenna is a place of purification. So to me Ultimate Reconciliation is far more likely than an eternal hell.

It certainly makes no sense to me that a merciful, loving God would send the vast majority of His creation to torture with no possible way out forever.
Thank Jesus Christ for his work on the cross that made a way for all to be reconciled.

Rom 11:11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation {has come} to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.
Rom 11:12 Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be!
Rom 11:13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
Rom 11:14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them.
Rom 11:15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will {their} acceptance be but life from the dead?
2Cr 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
John 12:32...And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me.

John 1:29...The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:44)
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit--fruit that will last. (John 15:16)

Titus 2:11...For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
1 Timothy 2:5 & 6....For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Romans 5:18...Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.

Romans 11:15...For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will {their} acceptance be but life from the dead?

Romans 11:32... For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

1 Cor 3:15...If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

1 Cor. 15:22...For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Phil. 2:9-11...Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Remember that "No on can say, 'Jesus is Lord', except by the Holy Spirit." 1 Cor 12:3

Col. 1:19-22...For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell;And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in [your] mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

1 Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
1Ti 4:11 These things command and teach.
I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me; I was found by those who did not seek me. (Isaiah 65:1)

For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. (Romans 9:15-16)

He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets. (Acts 3:21)

Thanks be to God who in his infinite mercy has made a way for His creation to be with Him for all eternity.

wow........this post is beginning to restore my faith a bit more...........

Havahope · Mar 24, 2006

Der Alter said:
Unbiblical rubbish. Answered here.
[SIZE=+1]δικαιοσυνη γαρ θεου εν αυτω αποκαλυπτεται εκ πιστεως εις πιστιν καθως γεγραπται ο δε δικαιος εκ πιστεως ζησεται

αποκαλυπτεται γαρ οργη θεου απ ουρανου επι πασαν ασεβειαν και αδικιαν ανθρωπων των την αληθειαν εν αδικια κατεχοντων

διοτι το γνωστον του θεου φανερον εστιν εν αυτοις ο γαρ θεος αυτοις εφανερωσεν

τα γαρ αορατα αυτου απο κτισεως κοσμου τοις ποιημασιν νοουμενα καθοραται η τε αιδιος αυτου δυναμις και θειοτης εις το ειναι αυτους αναπολογητους[/SIZE]

Sorry, I can't read Greek. Would you please answer in English? Thanks.

Hell is not permanent.

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

blah blah blah........

God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Him

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Him

blah blah blah........

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Senior Member

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

Senior Veteran

God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Him

blah blah blah........

blah blah blah........

Senior Member

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