Hell is a 404

[Lazarus Short]

Thank you for sharing the conclusions of your research!!

You are more than welcome!

 

[Der Alte]

. . . If you think I haven't "begin" to search and study, it would probably do no good for me to post my 200+ page manuscript here. Do you think you would read it? I think not.

Only if it has been reviewed by accredited Greek scholars.

 

[Lazarus Short]

There is a pseudo scholarly internet rumor floating around which says "...the Greek of the original autographs speaks of "age-long" punishment..." But for the fact that aion does mean eternity and aionios does mean eternal.
Nine accredited, credible Greek language sources cited. Fourteen total references! 1. NAS Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries, 2. Thayer’s Lexicon, 3. Vine’s Expository of Biblical Words, 3 references, 4. Louw-Nida Greek English Lexicon of the NT based on Semantic Domains, 2 references, 5. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, 6. Abridged Greek lexicon, Liddell-Scott, 7. Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, 3 references, 8. Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, Danker Greek English Lexicon of the NT and other Early Christian Literature, 9. Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the NT.
Aion, Aionios and the lexicons:
166. αιωνιος aionios; from 165; agelong, eternal:— eternal(66), eternity(1), forever(1).

Thomas, Robert L., Th.D., General Editor, New American Standard Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries,​

166 aionios- αιωνιος
1) without beginning and end, what has always been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

---Thayers​

2. αιωνιος aionios [166] "describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in <Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 1:2>; or undefined because endless as in <Rom. 16:26>, and the other sixty-six places in the NT.
"The predominant meaning of αιωνιος , that in which it is used everywhere in the NT, save the places noted above, may be seen in <2 Cor. 4:18>, where it is set in contrast with proskairos, lit., `for a season,' and in <Philem. 15>, where only in the NT it is used without a noun. Moreover it is used of persons and things which are in their nature endless, as, e. g., of God, <Rom. 16:26>; of His power, <1 Tim. 6:16>, and of His glory, <1 Pet. 5:10>; of the Holy Spirit, <Heb. 9:14>; of the redemption effected by Christ, <Heb. 9:12>, and of the consequent salvation of men, <5:9>, as well as of His future rule, <2 Pet. 1:11>, which is elsewhere declared to be without end, <Luke 1:33>; of the life received by those who believe in Christ, <John 3:16>, concerning whom He said, `they shall never perish,' <10:28>, and of the resurrection body, <2 Cor. 5:1>, elsewhere said to be `immortal,' <1 Cor. 15:53>, in which that life will be finally realized, <Matt. 25:46; Titus 1:2>.
αιωνιος is also used of the sin that `hath never forgiveness,' <Mark 3:29>, and of the judgment of God, from which there is no appeal, <Heb. 6:2>, and of the fire, which is one of its instruments, <Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7>, and which is elsewhere said to be `unquenchable,' <Mark 9:43>.
"The use of αιωνιος here shows that the punishment referred to in <2 Thes. 1:9>, is not temporary, but final, and, accordingly, the phraseology shows that its purpose is not remedial but retributive."

From Notes on Thessalonians, by Hogg and Vine, pp 232, 233. (from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words) (Copyright (C) 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers)​

67.96 αιωνιος aji>vdio", on; aijwvnio", on: pertaining to an unlimited duration of time - ‘eternal.’
aji>vdio"ò h{ te aji>vdio" aujtou` duvnami" kai; qeiovth" ‘his eternal power and divine nature’ Ro 1.20.
aijwvnio"ò blhqh`nai eij" to; pu`r to; aijwvnion ‘be thrown into the eternal fire’ Mt 18.8; tou` aijwnivou qeou` ‘of the eternal God’ Ro 16.26.
The most frequent use of αιωνιος in the NT is with zwhv ‘life,’ for example, i{na pa`" oJ pisteuvwn ejn aujtw/` e[ch/ zwh;n aijwvnion ‘so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life’ Jn 3.15. In combination with zwhv there is evidently not only a temporal element, but also a qualitative distinction. In such contexts, αιωνιος evidently carries certain implications associated with αιωνιος in relationship to divine and supernatural attributes. If one translates ‘eternal life’ as simply ‘never dying,’ there may be serious misunderstandings, since persons may assume that ‘never dying’ refers only to physical existence rather than to ‘spiritual death.’ Accordingly, some translators have rendered ‘eternal life’ as ‘unending real life,’ so as to introduce a qualitative distinction.

Louw, Johannes P. and Nida, Eugene A., Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains, (New York: United Bible Societies) 1988, 1989.​

αιωνιος aionios. An adjective meaning “eternal,” and found in the LXX in Pss. 24; 77:5; Gen. 21:33, aionios in the NT is used 1. of God (Rom. 16:26), 2. of divine possessions and gifts (2 Cor. 4:18; Heb. 9:14; 1 Pet. 5:10; 1 Tim. 6:16; 2 Th. 2:16, and 3. of the eternal kingdom (2 Pet. 1:11), inheritance (Heb. 9:15), body (2 Cor. 5:1), and even judgment (Heb. 6:2, though cf. Mt. 18:8; 2 Th. 1:9, where the sense is perhaps “unceasing”).

Kittel, Gerhard, and Friedrich, Gerhard, Editors, The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Abridged in One Volume, (Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company) 1985.​

αιωνιος aionios ", ov and a, ov, lasting for an age (aion 3), Plat.: ever-lasting, eternal, Id.

Liddell, H. G., and Scott, Abridged Greek-English Lexicon, (Oxford: Oxford University Press) 1992.​

166 aionios { ahee-o’-nee-os} αιωνιος from 165; TDNT - 1:208,31; adj
AV - eternal 42, everlasting 25, the world began + 5550 2, since the world began + 5550 1, for ever 1; 71
GK - 173 { aionios }
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995.​

CL The Gk. word αιων aion, which is probably derived from aei, … It thus appeared appropriate to later philosophers to use the word both for the dim and distant past, the beginning of the world, and for the far future, eternity (e.g. Plato, Tim. 37d).
Plato (Timoeus, ed. Steph. 3, 37, or ed. Baiter, Orell. et Winck. 712) says, speaking of the universe: …The nature therefore of the animal (living being) was eternal (aionios, before aidios), and this indeed it was impossible to adapt to what was produced (to genneto, to what had a beginning); he thinks to make a moveable image of eternity (aionos), and in adoring the heavens he makes of the eternity permanent in unity a certain eternal image moving in number, … And after unfolding this, he says (p. 38): "But these forms of time imitating eternity (aiona), and rolling round according to number, have had a beginning (gegonen).... For that pattern exists for all eternity (panta aiona estin on), but on the other hand, that which is perpetual (dia telous) throughout all time has had a beginning, and is, and will be." … Aion is what is properly eternal, in contrast with a divine imitation of it in ages of time, the result of the creative action of God which imitated the uncreate as nearly as He could in created ages.. ]
In Plato the term is developed so as to represent a timeless, immeasurable and transcendent super-time, an idea of time in itself. Plutarch and the earlier Stoics appropriate this understanding, and from it the Mysteries of Aion, the god of eternity, could be celebrated in Alexandria, and gnosticism could undertake its own speculations on time.
* * *

NIDNTT Colin Brown​

Aristotle peri ouranou, 1, 9 (ed. Bekker, 1, 279): "Time," he says, "is the number of movement, but there is no movement without a physical body. But outside heaven it has been shewn that there is not, nor possibly can come into existence, any body. It is evident then that there is neither place, nor void, nor time outside. Wherefore neither in place are things there formed by nature; nor does time cause them to grow old: neither is there any change of anything of those things which are arranged beyond the outermost orbit; but unchangeable, and subject to no influence, having the best and most independent life, they continue for all eternity (aiona). … According to the same word (logon) the completeness of the whole heaven, and the completeness which embraces all time and infinitude is aion, having received this name from existing for ever (apo tou aei einai), immortal (athanatos, undying), and divine." In 10 he goes on to shew that that beginning to be (genesthai) involves the not existing always, which I refer to as shewing what he means by aion. He is proving the unchangeable eternity of the visible universe. That is no business of mine; but it shews what he means by eternity (aion). It cannot be aidion and genesthai at the same time, when, as in Plato, aidios is used as equivalent to aionios
Philo, the sentence is in De Mundo, 7, en aioni de oute pareleluthen ouden, oute mellei, alla monon iphesteken. Such a definition needs no explanation: in eternity nothing is passed, nothing is about to be, but only subsists. This has the importance of being of the date and Hellenistic Greek of the New Testament, as the others give the regular, and at the same time philosophical force of the word, aion, aionios. Eternity, unchangeable, with no 'was' nor 'will be,' is its proper force, that it can be applied to the whole existence of a thing, so that nothing of its nature was before true or after is true, to telos to periechon. But its meaning is eternity, and eternal. … That is, things that are for a time are put in express contrast with aionia, which are not for a time, be it age or ages, but eternal. Nothing can be more decisive of its positive and specific meaning.
0166 aionios αιωνιος without beginning or end, eternal, everlasting
LEH lxx lexicon
UBS GNT Dict. # 169 (Str#166)
aionios eternal (of quality rather than of time); unending, everlasting, for all time
αιωνιος (iva Pla., Tim. 38b; Jer 39:40; Ezk 37:26; 2 Th 2:16; Hb 9:12; as v.l. Ac 13:48; 2 Pt 1:11; Bl-D. §59, 2; Mlt.-H. 157), on eternal (since Hyperid. 6, 27; Pla.; inscr., pap., LXX; Ps.-Phoc. 112; Test. 12 Patr.; standing epithet for princely, esp. imperial power: Dit., Or. Index VIII; BGU 176; 303; 309; Sb 7517, 5 [211/2 ad] kuvrio" aij.; al. in pap.; Jos., Ant. 7, 352).
1. without beginning crovnoi" aij. long ages ago Ro 16:25; pro; crovnwn aij. before time began 2 Ti 1:9; Tit 1:2 (on crovno" aij. cf. Dit., Or. 248, 54; 383, 10).
2. without beginning or end; of God (Ps.-Pla., Tim. Locr. 96c qeo;n t. aijwvnion; Inscr. in the Brit. Mus. 894 aij. k. ajqavnato"; Gen 21:33; Is 26:4; 40:28; Bar 4:8 al.; Philo, Plant. 8; 74; Sib. Or., fgm. 3, 17 and 4; PGM 1, 309; 13, 280) Ro 16:26; of the Holy Spirit in Christ Hb 9:14. qrovno" aij. 1 Cl 65:2 (cf. 1 Macc 2:57).
3. without end (Diod. S. 1, 1, 5; 5, 73, 1; 15, 66, 1 dovxa aij. everlasting fame; in Diod. S. 1, 93, 1 the Egyptian dead are said to have passed to their aij. …keep someone forever Phlm 15 (cf. Job 40:28). …On the other hand of eternal life (Maximus Tyr. 6, 1d qeou` zwh; aij.; Diod. S. 8, 15, 3 life meta; to;n qavnaton lasts eij" a{panta aijw`na; Da 12:2; 4 Macc 15:3; PsSol 3, 12; Philo, …carav IPhld inscr.; doxavzesqai aijwnivw/ e[rgw/ be glorified by an everlasting deed IPol 8:1. DHill, Gk. Words and Hebr. Mngs. ’67, 186-201. M-M.

Bauer, Walter, Gingrich, F. Wilbur, and Danker, Frederick W., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, (Chicago: University of Chicago Press) 1979.​

BIBLE STUDY MANUALS - AIONIOS -- AN IN DEPTH STUDY
αιωνιος
• Strong's - Greek 165
• NRSV (the uses of the word in various contexts in the NRSV text):
again, age, course, end, eternal, forever, permanent, time, world, worlds
• CGED (A Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the New Testament, by Barclay M. Newman, New York: United Bible Societies, 1993, page 5):
age; world order; eternity (ap aion or pro aion, from the beginning; eis aion, and the strengthened form eis tous aion, ton aion, always, forever);
• The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology [NIDNTT], Volume 3 (edited by Colin Brown, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan, 1978, page 827, 830):
In Plato the term [aion] is developed so as to represent a timeless, immeasurable and transcendent super-time, an idea of time in itself. Plutarch and other earlier Stoics appropriate this understanding, and from it the Mysteries of Aion, the god of eternity, could be celebrated in Alexandria, and gnosticism could undertake its own speculations on time.
The statements of the Johannine [John, 1 John, 2 John, 3 John] writings, … reveal a strong inclination to conceive of a timeless, because post-temporal, eternity… As in the OT [Old Testament], these statements reveal the background conviction that God's life never ends, i.e. that everything belonging to him can also never come to an end…
aion - αιων - age, world
A. "for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity; the worlds, universe; period of time, age."
Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995, [Online] Available: Logos Library System.
• aionion, aionios – αιωνιον, αιωνιος - eternal
B. "aionios," the adjective corresponding, denoting eternal. It is used of that which in nature is endless, as, e.g., of God, (Rom. 16:26), His power, (1 Tim. 6:16), His glory, (1 Pet. 5:10), the Holy Spirit, (Heb. 9:14), redemption, (Heb. 9:12), salvation, (5:9), life in Christ, (John 3:16), the resurrection body, (2 Cor. 5:1), the future rule of Christ, (2 Pet. 1:11), which is declared to be without end, (Luke 1:33), of sin that never has forgiveness, (Mark 3:29), the judgment of God, (Heb. 6:2), and of fire, one of its instruments, (Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7)."
i. Rom. 16:26 - " . . .according to the commandment of the eternal God. . ."
ii. 1 Tim. 6:16 - ". . . To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen."
iii. 1 Pet. 5:10 - " . . . who called you to His eternal glory in Christ,"
iv. Mark 3:29 - " . . . never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin."
v. etc.
SOURCE: Vine, W. E., Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981, Available: Logos Library System.
• "describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Tit. 1:2; or undefined because endless as in Rom. 16:26, and the other sixty–six places in the N.T.
A. Rom. 16:25 - " . . which has been kept secret for long ages past,"
B. Rom 16:26 - ". . . according to the commandment of the eternal God,"
C. 2 Tim. 1:9 - ". . . which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,"
D. Titus 1:2 - "the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised" long ages ago"
SOURCE: Vine, W. E., Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981, [Online] Available: Logos Library System)
• Eis tous aionios ton aionion – εις τους αιωνας των αιωνιωον - Forever and Ever, Lit. "into the age of the ages"
A. "unlimited duration of time, with particular focus upon the future - ‘always, forever, forever and ever, eternally."
B. Phil. 4:20 - ". . .to our God and Father be the glory forever and ever."
C. Rev. 19:3 - " . . .Her smoke rises up forever and ever."
D. Rev. 20:20 - "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."
SOURCE: Louw, Johannes P. and Nida, Eugene A., Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains, (New York: United Bible Societies) 1988, 1989, Available: Logos Library System.
Link: What do Greek dictionaries say about "aionion" | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

Oh, let's see...

Name calling ("pseudo scholarly").
Selective Sources.
Definition by assertion and circular logic.
Version of Bible quotes not given, and probable bias in version selection.
Link at the end doesn't work.

There is, in fact, a whole range of opinions on whether these Greek words mean a long-but-indefinite period of time or never-ending time. As a Christian I believe the term "eternity" should be reserved for the existence of God. If Hell is created (for which I find no proof in the Bible) then it has a beginning, and cannot be eternal by any definition. If created beings are punished, that cannot be eternal, since the beings and their punishment must have a beginning.

The fire-forever folks need to sit down for a long time (not forever!) and think through the implications of their Belief System (BS).

I do appreciate the hard word you must have done for your post, however.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Only if it has been reviewed by accredited Greek scholars.

...says a fellow Christian who believes the teachings of the New Testament, which was NOT written by accredited Greek scholars (except maybe Paul). Again, these things are Spiritually discerned, and not all of us have the ability to see what they are looking at.

Tell me, Der Alter, having found that the accredited Greek scholars who translated the KJV engaged in some theo-illogical trickery, why should I trust the current crop of same?

 

[Der Alte]

I contend that Jesus never used the word "hell" either, but that too will be rubber-stamped "Argument from silence." You may as well stamp the whole Bible, for except for deliberate insertion, there is not a shred of evidence for the existence of a place called "Hell."

I know there is an unscholarly internet rumor floating around that says what you claim about hell but please see my post #160 this thread where I cite nine credible Greek language sources which disprove the internet rumor. I would like to see some credible scholars try to refute e.g. Plato and Philo.

Limbo has already bit the dust - tell me, did babies go there until the Pope decided they didn't? There is truth and there is religion. I choose Truth.

Limbo is irrelevant I am not a Catholic. I would say rather you choose whatever 'net writings you can find here and there which support your assumptions/presuppositions.

In fact, I agree with Paul that so-and-so wicked people (in this life) will not inherit the Kingdom. He tells us in I Corinthians 3:15 that they will suffer loss, and I think one of the things they will lose will be the right to inherit in the Kingdom. They will still go on to age-long life then, or later.

What you "think" here is irrelevant. Fortunately my salvation is not determined by anonymous internet posters. As for the false '"age long" life, see my link above.

You also, have posted nothing which disproves my "supposition." These things are spiritually discerned, yet you do not see them...?

Ah, yes the tired old "I have spiritual discernment and you don't!" argument. Which OBTW is a logical fallacy "Ad Hominem." Too bad every heterodox group around; e.g. LDS, JW, SDA, WWCG, OP, UPCI, INC etc. makes the same tired argument. So thanks but no thanks I'll take scholarship over "discernment" of all the heterodox groups.

 

[Der Alte]

...says a fellow Christian who believes the teachings of the New Testament, which was NOT written by accredited Greek scholars (except maybe Paul). Again, these things are Spiritually discerned, and not all of us have the ability to see what they are looking at.

That the NT writers were not accredited Greek scholars is an irrelevant argument. I speak more than one language, when I have a conversation with someone in a language other than English, whether that person is a scholar or not is irrelevant, he is speaking his native language and if I intend to converse with him I must be fluent in his language or make use of accredited language sources to translate his words. Or would you say that I have to "spiritually discern" what he is saying?
.....Unless you read Greek fluently, and I am quite sure you don't, you have relied on scholars for all your studies. If you have written a 200 +/- page something that you want people to read it is no better than a comic book if it has not been reviewed by scholars who know what they are talking about.
.....And again you repeat your ad hom, "I have spiritual discernment and you don't" So which school of "spiritual discernment" do you belong to SDA, LDS, JW, WWCG, OP, UPCI, INC or other. And how do we know your "spiritual discernment"' is valid or not, just because you say so? No thanks, I want objective falsifiable evidence

Tell me, Der Alter, having found that the accredited Greek scholars who translated the KJV engaged in some theo-illogical trickery, why should I trust the current crop of same?

Yet another irrelevant argument. Do you have any idea whatsoever what training the KJV had available to them and how do you know if they had the best training available or not? You talk about trust, why should anyone trust your "spiritual discernment" claims? An analogy, I remember those evolution charts in books, a fish emerging from water, "evolving" into something with legs, which "evolved" into a chimp etc. I don't think all the scholars were deliberately deceptive but that was the best we had at the time.

 

[JacksBratt]

...says a fellow Christian who believes the teachings of the New Testament, which was NOT written by accredited Greek scholars (except maybe Paul). Again, these things are Spiritually discerned, and not all of us have the ability to see what they are looking at.

Tell me, Der Alter, having found that the accredited Greek scholars who translated the KJV engaged in some theo-illogical trickery, why should I trust the current crop of same?

I just want to ask you outright....

Do you think that the Bible teaches that there is no eternal consequence for our sins?

Do you think that the Bible teaches that after death we will get a second chance?

Do you think that the Bible teaches that everyone will be forgiven by God after death?

Do you believe that the Bible teaches that the punishment for our sins is only in this earthly life?

Do you believe that we are saved by being a basically good person who does good things and is kind to others?

 

[Der Alte]

Oh, let's see...
Name calling ("pseudo scholarly"). [If they are scholarly, produce your evidence. DA]
Selective Sources.[Prove it? DA]
Definition by assertion and circular logic.[Totally false. You evidently do not know how lexicons are compiled. DA]
Version of Bible quotes not given, and probable bias in version selection. [Opinion not relevant! DA]
Link at the end doesn't work.[Too bad! You'd have the same opinion, regardless! DA]
There is, in fact, a whole range of opinions on whether these Greek words mean a long-but-indefinite period of time or never-ending time.

Opinions are irrelevant without evidence. Or should we trust your "spiritual discernment?"

As a Christian I believe the term "eternity" should be reserved for the existence of God. If Hell is created (for which I find no proof in the Bible) then it has a beginning, and cannot be eternal by any definition. If created beings are punished, that cannot be eternal, since the beings and their punishment must have a beginning.

What you believe about the term "eternity" is irrelevant as is your unsupported "spiritual discernment." Had you bothered to read the Greek languages sources I cited you would know your definition of "eternal" is wrong.

The fire-forever folks need to sit down for a long time (not forever!) and think through the implications of their Belief System (BS).

Been there, done that, unsupported "spiritual; discernment" is irrelevant compared to credible, verifiable, historical evidence see my post #160 for examples of such evidence.

I do appreciate the hard word you must have done for your post, however.

Too bad you cannot provide evidence as I have. "I have spirtual discernment and you don't don't" seems to be your fall back position for every argument.. If I was going to follow someone's "spiritual discernment" I'd have been a JW, LDS or something many decades ago.

 

[Light of the East]

I was taught that the word "aion" meant age. You have stated here that it means "eternal" of "forever."

(QUOTE: "But for the fact that aion does mean eternity and aionios does mean eternal.")

Just a random check on Strong's brings me into a bit of confusion regarding this. Let's look at this verse:

Mat 24:3
And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? G165

Now put in your translation:

Mat 24:3
And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of eternity? G165

Can you see a problem there with that understanding? And this is one of many verses which make no sense if aion is translated as eternity.

Or how about this one:

Mat 12:32
And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

And your translation:

Mat 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this eternity neither in the eternity to come.

It seems like a problem to me. Could it be that those who did the translation perhaps had a prejudice which influenced them, similar to the prejudice of Calvinists who were less than honest with the word "logizomai" and through mangling its translation, created the false dogma of "imputed righteousness?"

Just wondering out loud.

 

[Light of the East]

In looking at the word "aionios," I think you could make a stronger case for this meaning "eternal" than you could make for "aion" meaning eternal. Looking at the many verses (thank you Blue Letter Bible online for your excellent search engines) which contain aionios, on the face of it, it seems a stretch to say it means "age-long" and the whole phrasing of that in the verse where aionios appears seems clumsy to me.

I would have to be an expert on Greek etymology to understand the root of the word and how it developed from aion (age) to the idea being put out that aionios means "age-long."

 

[Daniel9v9]

I really have no big issue with what you say here, except this: "If we proclaim that people who in sin and rebellion reject Christ will be saved, we're preaching a different gospel." It comes down to whether God with the wicked, or our wickedness.

We have three views on this:

1. God saves all, by His holy fire burning away our dross, tares, chaff, etc.

2. God burns the wicked to ashes, and that's that.

3. God sends the wicked to eternal Hell.

I have found little to support #2 in the Bible. Option #3 looked possible until I examined what the words translated as "hell" really meant. For the "eternal" part, I looked in an interlinear version and discovered that the Greek word used meant "age-long," not "eternal." That leaves #1 - but does God really save all? Independent of my Hell investigation, I searched to find if God was both willing AND able to save all. First, I found that He is willing - that was easy. Finding that He was able took some more time, and then I remembered His omnipotence, and that was the clincher. Remember what I posted in my OP:

20. God is both willing AND able to save all. Given that He is omnipotent, we can ALL look forward with confidence to our salvation. See Psalm 49:15, 86:13, 103:8-14, 136, Isaiah 1:18, 6:7, 25:7-8, 26:19, 33:24, 43:25, 44:22, 45:8, 55:8-9, 57:16, 64:6-9, Jeremiah 3:12. Lamentations 3:26-32, Ezekiel 11:19, 16:55, Hosea 13:14, Micah 4:5, 7:18-19, Ephesians 1:10, Philipians 3:21, Colossians 1:19-20, I Thessalonians 1:10, I Timothy 1:15, 2:4-6, 4:10, 6:13, II Peter 3:9.

Have you checked those Scriptures? I offer them, not as some new-age crank, but as a humble follower of Jesus the Christ. I write for those with eyes to see and ears to hear. Pray on these things.

The scripture you reference is good and most certainly true, but they point to Jesus Christ. It's problematic to apply these scriptures for universal salvation in light of the gospel and the New Testament in general.

Firstly, regarding the views you propose:
1. This view sounds a lot like purgatory, which is not universally accepted, however unlike purgatory (if I understand what you're suggesting correctly) this alternative also includes unbelievers. This view is not orthodox - not even to people that hold to purgatory.
The main reason why this is problematic is that if people could bear their own punishment for sins - including the sin of rejecting Christ - and then somehow after paying for all their sins, finally become received into the kingdom of God - they never needed Jesus, but instead they worked their salvation. But the Bible is clear on that there is no salvation outside our Lord Jesus Christ.

2. This view is incompatible with God's final judgment on evil as found in verses such as:
Revelation 19:3 Isaiah 34:10 Revelation 14:11

3. This is called the second death and is not to be confused with the state of being dead as we know it in our age, because death itself, sin and the devil will be thrown away. But rather it means a permanent separation from God. This has much Scriptural support and has been revealed to, held and taught by the apostles, then carried on and affirmed by the church fathers and the orthodox church until this day. More importantly, our Lord Jesus Christ plainly taught this.
Revelation 21:8 Revelation 2:11 Revelation 20:6 Revelation 20:14-15 Luke 13:28 Matthew 13:42 Jude 1:7 2 Peter 2:6 Matthew 22:1-14

As already said, your list of verses all points to God's grace through Jesus Christ. This can be understood from the context of the entire New Testament, but to cross reference only a few:

Psalms 49:15 > Romans 5:10 Ephesians 1:5 2 Corinthians 5:20

Isaiah 1:18 > Revelation 7:14 Titus 3:5 1 John 1:7 Titus 2:11-14 Acts 22:14-16 Hebrews 9:14 1 John 1:7

Jeremiah 3:12 > Ephesians 2:4-5 Romans 1:3-6 Romans 2:4

Ezekiel 11:19 > 2 Corinthians 3:3 Romans 5:5 2 Corinthians 1:22 Ephesians 3:16-17 Galatians 5:22-23 2 Corinthians 5:17

The above are only a few examples, but I think they can all be summed up in these:
Acts 4:12 John 3:16-17 2 Corinthians 5:21 Romans 1:17 Romans 3:28 Matthew 24:31

So, in light of all this, we can understand that it's only Jesus Christ that can wash away our sins. It's only through Christ that we may be justified before God. This is the gospel.

So what, then, does Scriptures say about people who in sin and rebellion reject God's grace; the Lamb of God - Christ Jesus? Here are some examples:
Matthew 10:33 Luke 9:26 Luke 12:9 Matthew 24:30 John 3:36 John 12:48 John 3:18-19 Romans 2

In conclusion then; God wills no one to perish, but wishes all to come to repentance. But broad is the way that leads to destruction and few are chosen. No one comes to the Father except through the son.
2 Peter 3:9 Matthew 7:13-14 Matthew 22:14 John 14:6

Salvation is entirely from God - He has graciously given us His Son.
But our damnation is entirely our own fault. There is no hope for salvation outside a hope in God, in Christ Jesus. This is why I can plainly and confidently say: "If we proclaim that people who in sin and rebellion reject Christ will be saved, we're preaching a different gospel."

 

[Lazarus Short]

I just want to ask you outright....

Do you think that the Bible teaches that there is no eternal consequence for our sins?

Do you think that the Bible teaches that after death we will get a second chance?

Do you think that the Bible teaches that everyone will be forgiven by God after death?

Do you believe that the Bible teaches that the punishment for our sins is only in this earthly life?

Do you believe that we are saved by being a basically good person who does good things and is kind to others?

"Do you think that the Bible teaches that there is no eternal consequence for our sins?"
I note in I Corinthians 3:15 that the wicked will suffer loss but yet be saved. In the verse which looks the furthest into the future (further than the Revelation, as far as I can tell), I Corinthians 15:24-28, we see that death has been destroyed (no one still dead) and that God has become All in all (no one still in Hell). I think Eternity, a difficult thing to wrap our minds around, begins at that point. But since it has a beginning, is it really Eternity? I think the term should only be used to refer to the existence of God Himself.

"Do you think that the Bible teaches that after death we will get a second chance?"
We get a glimpse - back to I Corinthians 15, we see verses 22 & 23, which tell us that "...in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order..."

"Do you think that the Bible teaches that everyone will be forgiven by God after death?"
See I Corinthians 15:28 again - I God is to become All in all, then all must be forgiven. This, however, is far in the future. Some will be going into the Lake of Fire for a time (remember death is destroyed at some point, and the LoF must then give up its dead). Much repentance will undoubtedly be required, and is that not what God wants from us? My reading of the Bible tells me that is His prime desire for man - repentance.

"Do you believe that the Bible teaches that the punishment for our sins is only in this earthly life?"
One of the things I found during the course of my search for the truth about Hell was unexpected - that all of God's cursings, punishments, destruction and calamity were/are worked out in the real world of the here-and-now. A big clue is that death is the ultimate penalty in the Law God gave to Moses, and no penalty after that is even hinted at. OTOH, lots of folks will be tossed into the Lake of Fire, and that will seem punishing to those so tossed. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, but that is not the end of the story - see Hebrews 12:11.

"Do you believe that we are saved by being a basically good person who does good things and is kind to others?"
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God..." Ephesians 2:8. It is ALL God's doing - He is the Author and Finisher of it. It is good to be good, to do good things and to be kind, but it is not enough, since we cannot save ourselves. We need a savior, and only Jesus the Christ can fill the role.

All quotes are from the KJV.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Firstly, regarding the views you propose:
1. This view sounds a lot like purgatory, which is not universally accepted, however unlike purgatory (if I understand what you're suggesting correctly) this alternative also includes unbelievers. This view is not orthodox - not even to people that hold to purgatory.
The main reason why this is problematic is that if people could bear their own punishment for sins - including the sin of rejecting Christ - and then somehow after paying for all their sins, finally become received into the kingdom of God - they never needed Jesus, but instead they worked their salvation. But the Bible is clear on that there is no salvation outside our Lord Jesus Christ.

I never said my views were anything like Purgatory. Purgatory is punitive, while the fire of God which burns away dross, is remedial. It all hinges on what we perceive to be the nature and intent of God. You, in your post above, seem to lean to a punitive view of paying for sin with time served. The straw man ("they never needed Jesus") is absurd - of course they need Jesus. We all do! You are correct to assert "that there is no salvation outside our Lord Jesus Christ." I agree, but do you imagine that repentance is any less a part of God's plan for the wicked in the age to come, than it is in this age? Do you really suppose that the God Whose thoughts are far above yours or mine has just settled on the human eye-for-an-eye solution? Send 'em to Hell?! That, after "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." and "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe."? [John 3:16 and I Timothy 4:10, respectively]

 

[Daniel9v9]

I never said my views were anything like Purgatory. Purgatory is punitive, while the fire of God which burns away dross, is remedial. It all hinges on what we perceive to be the nature and intent of God. You, in your post above, seem to lean to a punitive view of paying for sin with time served. The straw man ("they never needed Jesus") is absurd - of course they need Jesus. We all do! You are correct to assert "that there is no salvation outside our Lord Jesus Christ." I agree, but do you imagine that repentance is any less a part of God's plan for the wicked in the age to come, than it is in this age? Do you really suppose that the God Whose thoughts are far above yours or mine has just settled on the human eye-for-an-eye solution? Send 'em to Hell?! That, after "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." and "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe."? [John 3:16 and I Timothy 4:10, respectively]

This is also problematic as it contradicts what the Bible says regarding 'the elect'.

However, if you agree in that there is no salvation outside our Lord Jesus Christ - how do you suppose those who willingly reject God's grace can be saved?

The reason why it's too late to repent in the age to come is because in those days there will be nothing to repent from, because then we are made complete in Christ and there is no longer evil.

I'm not sure I agree with your "eye-for-eye" caricature. As mentioned before, I think perhaps part of the problem why people find the second death challenging is because they fail to appreciate the gravity of sin and God's righteousness. The only thing we are worthy of is eternal damnation! Only God is good. It is only through God's great mercy, the works and merits of Jesus Christ we may live, and on account of him we may be counted as righteous before God.

Perhaps another argument - Why do you believe that those who reject Christ are saved when God didn't even spare the angels who abused their free will? Do you think Satan will be saved? Scriptures teach us otherwise. See 2 Peter 2

Furthermore, practically speaking, if we proclaim to unbelievers that they all will be saved in the end, regardless of their their beliefs, how does this align itself with the Great Commission?

 

[JacksBratt]

"Do you think that the Bible teaches that there is no eternal consequence for our sins?"
I note in I Corinthians 3:15 that the wicked will suffer loss but yet be saved. In the verse which looks the furthest into the future (further than the Revelation, as far as I can tell), I Corinthians 15:24-28, we see that death has been destroyed (no one still dead) and that God has become All in all (no one still in Hell). I think Eternity, a difficult thing to wrap our minds around, begins at that point. But since it has a beginning, is it really Eternity? I think the term should only be used to refer to the existence of God Himself.

Ok, thanks for your outlook on these verses and how they pertain to answering my question.

However, I Corinthians 3:15 is talking about the people who are already saved. Not the whole of humanity.
I Corinthians 15:24-28 is talking about the final enemy being death. After all is said and done, sinners and the lost, Satan, his fallen angels and demons, all are gone forever, all that is left is the saved, the non-fallen angels, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Then...death dies... it is no more. There will be no more death.

As for eternity. Sounds like nit picking here. Eternity is open at each end, for sure. Endless time either way, back or forward.

Is it not possible for us to be elevated to the state of existing in an already existing "eternity"?

To say that my life will not be eternal because eternity is backward and forwards and I have a beginning.... that will not convince me that my life in glory will not be eternal. Not at all.

 

[JacksBratt]

"Do you think that the Bible teaches that after death we will get a second chance?"
We get a glimpse - back to I Corinthians 15, we see verses 22 & 23, which tell us that "...in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order..."

"In Christ". This is the key. The ones who are "In Christ" are the saved. The ones who accept Christ, the "born again'.

 

[JacksBratt]

"Do you think that the Bible teaches that everyone will be forgiven by God after death?"
See I Corinthians 15:28 again - I God is to become All in all, then all must be forgiven.

Sorry, I don't get that to be the meaning here. I understand it to mean that God will be the highest of the High the ruler of all, the all in all....
not that all will be forgiven. Again, this is only dealing with the saved, not the lost.

This, however, is far in the future. Some will be going into the Lake of Fire for a time (remember death is destroyed at some point, and the LoF must then give up its dead). Much repentance will undoubtedly be required, and is that not what God wants from us? My reading of the Bible tells me that is His prime desire for man - repentance.

I think, in this case, it would be better, for you to show scripture that states that the eternal torment is for a short time or not for ever......

 

[JacksBratt]

"Do you believe that the Bible teaches that the punishment for our sins is only in this earthly life?"
One of the things I found during the course of my search for the truth about Hell was unexpected - that all of God's cursings, punishments, destruction and calamity were/are worked out in the real world of the here-and-now. A big clue is that death is the ultimate penalty in the Law God gave to Moses, and no penalty after that is even hinted at. OTOH, lots of folks will be tossed into the Lake of Fire, and that will seem punishing to those so tossed. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, but that is not the end of the story - see Hebrews 12:11.

Ok, first, let's understand that all the curses and consequences that the Israelites suffered in all those years from Abraham to Christ, were a direct result of not obeying God.

They would be Godly for a while, slip into heathen practices, be warned by God through prophets, ignore the prophet, get punished... This cycle is repeated numerous times.

These were the actions taken and punishments given during this life.

Hebrews 12:11 is talking about the fact that trials and tribulations are done for a purpose. Discipline, stresses and issues in our lives are all meant for us to be prepared or made ready or change are attitude in a way that will be better for us in the long run.

Just like discipline for a child or getting them to do a chore that they don't like, will make life easier for them in the future.

This is not about suffering for your sins in this life so that you can live in eternal glory....

 

[JacksBratt]

"Do you believe that we are saved by being a basically good person who does good things and is kind to others?"
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God..." Ephesians 2:8. It is ALL God's doing - He is the Author and Finisher of it. It is good to be good, to do good things and to be kind, but it is not enough, since we cannot save ourselves. We need a savior, and only Jesus the Christ can fill the role.

All quotes are from the KJV.

That, I agree with 100%.

 

[Der Alte]

"Do you think that the Bible teaches that there is no eternal consequence for our sins?"
I note in I Corinthians 3:15 that

the wicked will suffer loss but yet be saved. In the verse which looks the furthest into the future (further than the Revelation, as far as I can tell), I

Corinthians 15:24-28, we see that death has been destroyed (no one still dead) and that God has become All in all (no one still in Hell)....

One of the proof text bricks on which you build your theology just crumbled.

1 Corinthians 3:9-17
(9) For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
(10) According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
(11) For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
(12) Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
(13) Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
(14) If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
(15) If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
(16) Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
(17) If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.​

First 1 Cor is addressed to the "laborers together with God,""God's husbandry"" God's building." vs. 9 those who build on the foundation of Christ, vs. 10-11. Not all mankind or the wicked.
So "every man,""no man,""any man" vss. 10-15, 17 is not all mankind but only "laborers together with God,""God's husbandry"" God's building." vs. 9.
And note vs. 17 which does not say all mankind will be saved, by fire or any other way, but any man who defiles the temple of God will be destroyed.